"Tape Recorder Man"

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A very, very remote possibility has come to my mind since the current leads on the case were revealed. After hearing about LLW's behavior at the mall, it makes me wonder if finding the TRM could still be helpful in another way; if he really did interview the girls that day, he may have asked what they were doing at the mall or how their day was. I can't help but think their answers might have reflected whether or not someone had been following them and/or acting strangely.
 
A very, very remote possibility has come to my mind since the current leads on the case were revealed. After hearing about LLW's behavior at the mall, it makes me wonder if finding the TRM could still be helpful in another way; if he really did interview the girls that day, he may have asked what they were doing at the mall or how their day was. I can't help but think their answers might have reflected whether or not someone had been following them and/or acting strangely.

In addition to the remote possibility that any of the childs' answers might be useful, there is a possibility one character (TRM or LLW) who liked young girls might notice another character (TRM or LLW) who also liked young girls. But I think the timing of TRM talking to the girls and LLW watching them don't overlap unless one or both were following the girls for a longer period than noticed. Again, it's not a crime to just watch or talk to kids and law enforcement can't choose it's witnesses.
 
The Tape Recorder Man was not seen "following" the Lyon sisters. He was seen only briefly (by two boys) speaking to them with his microphone while he was sitting on a low brick wall around some plants or bushes. Immediately after speaking with the girls, they departed toward the center of the Mall (where the Easter Bunny display was) and TRM was seen walking in the opposite direction toward Wards.

MCP tried to find other witnesses who had seen TRM by showing the composite sketch to various people and then by releasing it to the news media. A number of people came forward to state that they had seen a man with a tape recorder on earlier occasions attmpting to "interview" or record children at area malls, there were no witnesses who claimed to have seen TRM "following" anyone.

The story about the Long Haired Man (LHM) has a number of similarities to the TRM story, but also some significant differences - both in the story itself, and in the way it has been treated by MCP.

The LHM was seen and described to the same MCP artist by a 12 year old girl who claimed to have been with the Lyon Sisters. She stated that this young man was "following and bothering" them. MCP did not release the LHM sketch or story to the public - for reasons not known - until 39 years had elapsed.

It is not known if anyone else saw the LHM or if MCP found anyone to corroborate the girl's story. None of the known witnesses who saw the Lyon sisters at the mall that day reported seeing them with another girl or seeing a Long Haired Man following them or watching them.

A similarity between the two stories is that both were related by young teens who stated that they knew the Lyon sisters. A major difference seems to be the way MCP dealt with each of the reports.
 
The Tape Recorder Man was not seen "following" the Lyon sisters. He was seen only briefly (by two boys) speaking to them with his microphone while he was sitting on a low brick wall around some plants or bushes. Immediately after speaking with the girls, they departed toward the center of the Mall (where the Easter Bunny display was) and TRM was seen walking in the opposite direction toward Wards.

MCP tried to find other witnesses who had seen TRM by showing the composite sketch to various people and then by releasing it to the news media. A number of people came forward to state that they had seen a man with a tape recorder on earlier occasions attmpting to "interview" or record children at area malls, there were no witnesses who claimed to have seen TRM "following" anyone.

The story about the Long Haired Man (LHM) has a number of similarities to the TRM story, but also some significant differences - both in the story itself, and in the way it has been treated by MCP.

The LHM was seen and described to the same MCP artist by a 12 year old girl who claimed to have been with the Lyon Sisters. She stated that this young man was "following and bothering" them. MCP did not release the LHM sketch or story to the public - for reasons not known - until 39 years had elapsed.

It is not known if anyone else saw the LHM or if MCP found anyone to corroborate the girl's story. None of the known witnesses who saw the Lyon sisters at the mall that day reported seeing them with another girl or seeing a Long Haired Man following them or watching them.

A similarity between the two stories is that both were related by young teens who stated that they knew the Lyon sisters. A major difference seems to be the way MCP dealt with each of the reports.

I'm wondering if maybe LE realized after LLW2 came forward with his info in 1975 that he could have been the LHM. Since they ultimately discounted his story after giving him a polygraph, maybe they felt they did not need to ask the public for help in identifying LHM; so they did not release the sketch of LHM. They may have thought they already knew who LHM was, and they wrongly felt he was not involved in the girls abduction. Probably because of his young age, lack of car, no criminal record, low IQ, etc... they dismissed him and found TRM to be a better candidate for the girl's abduction. That may be why they released the sketch of TRM and not LHM.
So 39 years later, they found out LLW2 was involved and finally released the LHM sketch to see if anybody remembered him from Wheaton Plaza that day, or from any other sexual offenses he may have committed. MCP had LHM / LLW2 right under their nose 39 years ago and did not figure out to connect him to the abductions until somebody else laid it out there for them. btw, I do not buy into the "fresh eyes on the case" explanation for the breakthrough in the case. I've spoke with other LE (not working on this case) who have said that is typical misinformation / misdirection used to keep a source confidential and keep the criminals guessing to what LE really knows.
 
Who was it that said they noticed one of the girls looking worried at the Mall and where was she at the time? (With the Easter Bunny?)

Could LLW2 or RAW1 have been the Easter Bunny?

I have seen photographs of Santa Claus at Wheaton Plaza and the profile of the man resembles RAW1 or perhaps someone related to him. Could be a coincidence too.
 
I'm wondering if maybe LE realized after LLW2 came forward with his info in 1975 that he could have been the LHM. Since they ultimately discounted his story after giving him a polygraph, maybe they felt they did not need to ask the public for help in identifying LHM; so they did not release the sketch of LHM. They may have thought they already knew who LHM was, and they wrongly felt he was not involved in the girls abduction. Probably because of his young age, lack of car, no criminal record, low IQ, etc... they dismissed him and found TRM to be a better candidate for the girl's abduction. That may be why they released the sketch of TRM and not LHM.
So 39 years later, they found out LLW2 was involved and finally released the LHM sketch to see if anybody remembered him from Wheaton Plaza that day, or from any other sexual offenses he may have committed. MCP had LHM / LLW2 right under their nose 39 years ago and did not figure out to connect him to the abductions until somebody else laid it out there for them. btw, I do not buy into the "fresh eyes on the case" explanation for the breakthrough in the case. I've spoke with other LE (not working on this case) who have said that is typical misinformation / misdirection used to keep a source confidential and keep the criminals guessing to what LE really knows.

You make some very good points regarding possible reasons that MCP failed to release the sketch and story of the Long Haired Man (LHM). It is possible that they felt he was not a viable suspect at the time.

But keep in mind that Lloyd Welch did not come to them with his "tip" until 1 April 1975 when the TRM sketch and story about the WMAL reward offer were in the news.

MCP had the LHM story and sketch by 27 March 1975 - only two days after the Lyon sisters went missing, yet in those critical early days of the search and investigation, they did not release them to the public. If they connected Lloyd to that unknown LHM, it would not have been until a full five days after they had the sketch. And if you choose to believe their press releases, they still considered LHM to have been an UNIDENTIFIED individual when they did the side-by-side comparison between the sketch and Lloyd's 1977 photo during their February 2014 press conference.

I feel that it is important to keep the two stories/sketches separate until and unless they are later positively linked together. There has already been some confusion and merging of the two stories by news media. A recent article told the story of the tape recorder man while showing a sketch of LHM. And even during the February 2014 police briefing, TV stations were flashing the sketch of TRM while MCP spoksmen were trying to talk about the Long Haired Man.

The alleged existence of these two strange men - TRM and LHM - is something that will have to be addressed in one way or another during any future investigations and any prosecutions. Were they involved or not with the disappearance of the Lyon sisters? If prosecutors and investigators cannot link potential suspects to these two men, then they will have to make some sort of explanation of them to a jury in order to eliminate the element of reasonable doubt.
 
Who was it that said they noticed one of the girls looking worried at the Mall and where was she at the time? (With the Easter Bunny?)

Could LLW2 or RAW1 have been the Easter Bunny?

I have seen photographs of Santa Claus at Wheaton Plaza and the profile of the man resembles RAW1 or perhaps someone related to him. Could be a coincidence too.

For the best information, look at a rather long Washington Star story from 6 April 1975 by Mary Ann Kuhn that mentions what Jay Lyon said about seeing his sisters at Wheaton Plaza that day.

Jay did not say that they looked "worried", but rather that they might have been waiting for someone near the center/fountain area of the mall where the large Easter Bunny display was.

I have no idea who the person was in the Easter Bunny suit. But whoever it was, it would almost rule him/her out as a suspect in the girls' disappearance. A costumed performer doing an all day job, seen by hundreds of people would be a pretty solid alibi.

Here is an excerpt from that Washington Star article of 6 April 1975. The entire article can be seen at post number 18 of the Lyons Sisters Media and Document Links thread and also on the "Remembering" thread.

... Sheila's and Kate's oldest brother, Jay, a ninth grader at Montgomery Hills said he saw his sisters over by the big Easter bunny display in the center of the plaza at about 1 p.m. "I walked past them. They kind of looked like they were waiting there," he said. "I think they saw me but they didn't make any signs."

Moments later, another 13-year-old boy saw the girls. Sheila, he said, was sitting on one of the Easter bunny's arms listening to the little children come up and tell the Easter bunny what they wanted for Easter. ... [unquote]

LINK:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ters-Media-and-Document-Links-**NO-DISCUSSION**
 
Now we're back on talking about TRM. I'm still kind if skeptical to this Jimmy's story whether what he said was true or if he had seen TRM another time somewhere else and just added it in to the Lyon Sisters disappearance so that he would be noticed and recognised. Obviously he did exist but I still can't prove for sure if he was at Wheaton Plaza that day or not.
 
Also, this was mentioned a while back on page 7 of this thread but on another forum site discussion of this case, someone mentions attending a high school in the area called Sidwell and said that one day during PE, a man with a tape recorder came up to her on the ball field and started asking her questions. For some reason, the coach did nothing about this. This girls friend said that this TRM looked somewhat like the one in the sketch connected to the Lyon Sisters, so obviously this happened after their disappearance. This girl did tell the school and they called the police. The school also had an assembly on the dangers of these people. I just find it strange that the coach didn't tell this TRM to leave and I wonder who he was. Read molly's post here:
http://m.topix.com/forum/state/md/T9MJ1SGETI858D5OK/p2
 
I don't have any data or first-hand knowledge, but it sounds like many men who liked underage girls used a tape-recorder as a prop to talk to underage girls.

Many men have used cameras as a prop to meet legal-age women with lines such as, "You are so good looking. You could be a model. Could I take your photo?

Obviously using a camera with an underage girl, if not outright illegal, is going to attract attention. Even if only a fraction of a percent of all men who liked underage girls used a tape recorder as a proper, there are going to be many tape recorder men. Since talking and looking is not illegal, all the PE coach at Sidwell or the police could do is ask them to move along and issue a warning not to do more. Failing to move along or returning after being told not to return could result in a minor charge of trespassing.

This might all be academic if remains in VA have been confirmed with DNA.
 
I don't have any data or first-hand knowledge, but it sounds like many men who liked underage girls used a tape-recorder as a prop to talk to underage girls...

.... This might all be academic if remains in VA have been confirmed with DNA.

To my knowledge, there have not been any official statements from LE that any remains have been found or tested to date. Last reports were that they were still searching the Taylor mountain area.

Certainly, IF the bodies of the Lyon sisters were to be found and identified, a large part of this case will be resolved. That, I feel is their primary goal at this time.

But, Law Enforcement officials will STILL have the task of gathering and assembling evidence in order to indict and bring the perpetrators to justice. Connecting a suspect to a crime beyond a reasonable doubt will require more than simply locating a body. Forensics might be able to do that, but other forms of evidence may be required as well, such as documentation, statements, eyewitness testimony, etc.

The current efforts seem to stem from statements made by - and about - Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. and his uncle Richard Welch. MCP has documentation about Lloyd Welch dating back to 1 April 1975 and they believe that he was present at Wheaton Plaza on 25 March 1975.

MCP also has eyewitness testimony from a girl who saw and described a man (unknown to her) that she states was following and bothering her and the Lyon Sisters that day. This is the person referred to in these threads as the Long Haired Man (LHM). Was this man Lloyd Welch? Can the girl today identify him as being LHM? Would such an identification 40 years after the fact be admissible in court?

The story of the Tape Recorder Man (TRM), as discussed in this thread, is based on eyewitness testimony also. Who was he and was he involved in the disappearance of the Lyon Sisters? Was he working together with LHM? Did Lloyd Welch mention him in any of his statements to MCP?

The unanswered questions about TRM are as germane today as they were in 1975.
 
Even after 40 years, eyewitness accounts are still used in court. That's not always a good thing, as eyewitnesses have been known to be subjective and wrong.
 
This guy being at all these malls beckoning children and not one single security officer or store manager questioned him about his motives? Astounding!
 
Even after 40 years, eyewitness accounts are still used in court. That's not always a good thing, as eyewitnesses have been known to be subjective and wrong.

Absolutely correct. And in this specific case, it looks as if eyewitness testimony which is 40 years old would almost have to be used to support any charges and evidence emerging from the current investigation.

To date, all the search warrants issued have been on the basis of statements made by Lloyd Welch (and possibly others) which relate directly to events of 1975. Any evidence found today as a result of those searches will need to be validated in court by documentation and possibly by first hand testimony.

Any testimony proposed or given can be challenged in court and a judge would have to rule on its admissability. Elapsed time is certainly a factor, but not necessarily the only one. It is one thing to remember how something happened 40 years ago, as you saw it, but quite another thing to render a positive identification of a suspect 40 years later of someone you did not know at the time.

There could be a number of factors which might tend to support or oppose allowing such testimony, and they might be introduced by either the prosecution or the defense depending on the situation at a trial - and on who is on trial.

If, for example, Lloyd Welch were to be tried for abduction of the girls, his attorney would probably oppose any attempt to identify him as LHM and to place him at the scene. But, if Lloyd were to appear as an eyewitness, claiming to have been at Wheaton Plaza that day, he might want to claim that he was indeed LHM, as described by the girl witness of 1975.
 
This guy being at all these malls beckoning children and not one single security officer or store manager questioned him about his motives? Astounding!

It is amazing that it was not brought to the attention of Mall security, or if it was that nothing was done about it.

About five years ago, I met someone who had been a member of the security force at Wheaton Plaza in the late 1990's or early 2000's. He was a young guy in his early 30's and had not even been born in 1975. I asked him what he would have done if he had seen a man with a tape recorder talking to young girls, and he said that he would have approached him to find out what he was up to. He said that there was a standing order in their instructions to do this.

I asked him if he knew the reason behind that instruction, and he said No, but he suspected that it might have something to do with Homeland security and anti-terrorism measures. I asked him if he had ever heard of the Lyon sisters, and he said that No he hadn't. I then gave him a short version of the case and he said that the rule about approaching a TRM now made sense to him.
 
Absolutely correct. And in this specific case, it looks as if eyewitness testimony which is 40 years old would almost have to be used to support any charges and evidence emerging from the current investigation.

To date, all the search warrants issued have been on the basis of statements made by Lloyd Welch (and possibly others) which relate directly to events of 1975. Any evidence found today as a result of those searches will need to be validated in court by documentation and possibly by first hand testimony.

Any testimony proposed or given can be challenged in court and a judge would have to rule on its admissability. Elapsed time is certainly a factor, but not necessarily the only one. It is one thing to remember how something happened 40 years ago, as you saw it, but quite another thing to render a positive identification of a suspect 40 years later of someone you did not know at the time.

There could be a number of factors which might tend to support or oppose allowing such testimony, and they might be introduced by either the prosecution or the defense depending on the situation at a trial - and on who is on trial.

If, for example, Lloyd Welch were to be tried for abduction of the girls, his attorney would probably oppose any attempt to identify him as LHM and to place him at the scene. But, if Lloyd were to appear as an eyewitness, claiming to have been at Wheaton Plaza that day, he might want to claim that he was indeed LHM, as described by the girl witness of 1975.


Any attempt to oppose placing LLW at the scene would certainly be interesting, as his own sworn testimony places him there. Other witnesses and witnesses after the fact gave enough probable cause for search warrants, and the findings after each search was enough to allow a judge to send them back for more. It has gone beyond the statements of LLW. That said, mitochondrial DNA is a wonderful forensic tool.

Pat Welch's court date should be interesting.
 
Any attempt to oppose placing LLW at the scene would certainly be interesting, as his own sworn testimony places him there. Other witnesses and witnesses after the fact gave enough probable cause for search warrants, and the findings after each search was enough to allow a judge to send them back for more. It has gone beyond the statements of LLW. That said, mitochondrial DNA is a wonderful forensic tool.

Pat Welch's court date should be interesting.



I have not seen any information indicating that Lloyd Welch gave sworn testimony to MCP investigators. He made verbal statements to them regarding events at Wheaton Plaza on 25 March 1975 which were cited by MCP in their requests for search warrants. But whether or not those statements could be used as evidence in a trial against Lloyd or other suspects would be another matter.

In the case of Lloyd, he has made a number of conflicting statements about the case at different times. Any statement he made to investigators would have to be supported by documentation that he was advised of his rights against self incrimination and that he understood those rights.

It would appear that investigators have been focusing their efforts more on attempting to locate the girls' remains and to link Richard Welch to the case - than on trying to build a case exclusively against Lloyd Welch. In those efforts, any lead they can follow is fair game. But a trial prosecution would almost require the cooperation and the testimony in court of Lloyd Welch.

If prosecutors do, in fact, have signed sworn statements from Lloyd Welch, they could be introduced in a trial as evidence, but as in all such matters involving "sworn affidavits", a defense attorney would argue that he cannot cross examine a document.

It would indeed be interesting to see what Patricia Welch said to the Grand Jury, and what evidence prosecutors have that proves she was lying about it. And was her testimony something substantial about the Lyon case, or tangential to it?
 
Prosecutors do, in fact, have signed sworn statements from Lloyd Welch. And it is sworn testimony: in Maryland, filing a complaint or speaking as a witness is not just a conversation; you are advised prior to making statements that any deviation from the truth is perjury. While a document cannot be cross examined, Lloyd can. But I agree with you about the conflicting statements........the FBI must have had more than Lloyd's statements in order to go to all the trouble they went to and dig on the mountain.

Patricia Welch lied about "material evidence", so I think it is safe to assume that it is not something merely tangential to the case.
 
I wonder at this point if Tape Recorder Man played a part in their disappearance or had any connection to the Welches or maybe was one of them or was he just some strange character that had nothing to do with their disappearance and possibly might not have been at the mall that day? He seemed to be a likely suspect early in but now that LE seems to have zeroed in on the Welches does it still seem like he played a part in this or not?
 
Tragic events are haunted by characters so strange they seem devilish offshoots -- weirdly compelling doppelgängers -- of the event itself; they may appear so only as a result of their manifesting in tandem with the larger occurrence. I'm guessing that's the case with Tape Recorder Man.
 

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