Terri's friends want to distance themselves after being dragged into investigation

[GrainneDhu]

Maybe there are texts and phone calls and e-mails that put DDS with Terri that day....or something else that has been discovered involving DDS with Terri that day....LE knows. Kaine and Desiree know. DDS knows. We don't.

Would Kaine and Desiree really do or say something that would hamper the search for their son? I don't believe they would.

I don't think they would deliberately do anything to hurt the search for Kyron.

But no one is perfect and they may do something that inadvertently damages the search. Or do something they think is right at the time and later proves to be wrong.

They should make their own best judgment as to their own conduct. And so should anyone else in any way involved in this case. No one should just blindly rely on KH and DY's judgment to guide their own actions. That's not a fair burden to put on anyone.

 

[TxLady2]

I do not believe for one minute that LE has asked them to do any of this. If LE asked them to do this, they are working on behalf of LE so they would become "de facto agents" of LE. "De facto agents" are held to the same standards and/or laws as LE.

IMO, if they are speaking on behalf of LE, LE would publically clear them as either persons of interest or suspects. As it as, at this time, LE has not ruled them out. That makes me question that they are being told to speak out by LE.

IMO, LE is allowed to lie during question. They could have lied about Terri and the MFH during question as an investigative tool. I could see them lying to see how quickly it was believed. In a happy marriage, it would take a lot of real evidence for a husband to believe his wife tried to hire someone to murder him. If someone claims their marriage is happy but are too quick to believe it, it would suggest they are lying about a happy marriage.

IMO, we have no idea if the information credited to LE came from LE. We have no idea if they are actual facts or lies used for investigative purposes.

IMO, every time someone says "LE" told them, you need to add in the word "alledgedly. "A" says that alledgely LE said that alledgely Terri hired a MFH. A double "alledgely" does not make a fact to me.

IMO, until LE publically state that they have given the parents permission to speak on their behalf, I cannot believe they did.

ITA, and thank you!!

I don't recall any case which I've followed for the last 10 years where the family of the victim was allowed to run the investigation, or give out details like this. Much less make public threats to someone they think is not cooperating. LE usually tells the family not to discuss the details with the media. I don't beleive for one second that LE sanctions this kind of thing. And it is certainly not helping from what I see. Kyron is still missing.

I don't like putting down the parents of this missing child, but it really causes me concern and doubt, and I don't see how it is helping find Kyron. I think this latest action has hurt their credibility to some degree, and I just have to wonder if LE is not silently pulling their own hair out right about now.

 

[mydailyopinions]

And what if, through no fault of your own, LE finds something, anything, that implicates you in any way? What if LE suspects you of being involved? What if, oh let's say... a landscaper ... convinces them that you were involved in plot to harm or kill someone. LE is under no obligation to tell you the truth. You could be as pure and innocent as the driven snow, but if they think (even mistakenly think) that you may be involved in the slightest, they WILL find something they can use against you. Also keep in mind that a search warrant specifically states where they are searching and what they are looking for and can seize if found. Give them free access without a warrant, and everything is fair game.

If the police were to show up at my door and ask to search my property for a missing child, I'd say go for it.

If they were to show up and ask to enter my house and search my computer, or phone records or *whatever*, I'd say show me the warrant --- after placing a call to my attorney. Especially if I knew I was innocent. LE is not in the business of establishing innocence. Their job is to catch criminals. If they want that sort of information, they are looking to make a connection to a crime.

Mistakenly implicating innocents does not help find Kyron. If anything, it does exactly what D, K, and T warn against in their threat to Dede... delays finding him and bringing him home.

To answer your question:
Lets just say someone snatched Kyron from that school, some creep who threw him over his shoulder and ran...and lets say I live a mile away and am at work all day long and this creep came through my living room window with Kyron while I was working, had Kyron write a letter to his dad saying "I'm going to die in 24 hours" When the police knock on my door later in the evening I don't allow them in without a warrant, and it takes them another 24 hours to obtain one.. they finally get in with a warrant, find the note that I would have never found myself, then through that note was able to locate a dead child.
The simple thought that every hour counts to find a child could lead to a situation such as this would cause me to welcome LE in with open arms. They can't find anything that implicates me unless I am involved somehow. I have more faith in LE than to believe they are in the business of finding something on an innocent person just because.
Maybe in another circumstance I would be different, but in the case of a missing child, who knows? Like I said before, shoot me before I get to a point in my life where my rights mean more than a childs.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Angel, Tx, and anyone else I'm forgetting: I totally understand your viewpoint and to some degree I agree with it. However, in this case, I do not understand why DD won't talk. If she knows NOTHING - especially if she knows nothing - why can't she just say that? I know all too well how people get railroaded into things, but I still think it's in her best interest to just tell them what she knows - even if it's nada. IMO, she may be guilty of nothing, but this behavior doesn't point to that. I can't tell you how many times I've listened to Marc Klaas and others tell people to get themselves ruled out of a case. I guess this sticks with me. Again, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, b/c I know we each feel strongly about this issue. If it were another case, I might be right on board with you, but not in this case.

I have often wondered if Mark Klaas offered to pay Kevin Fox's legal bills.

After all, Kevin Fox did exactly as Mark Klaas suggested. It got him eight months in jail, incredible amounts of stress, a divorce and public condemnation.

It's easy to give out advice if you don't have any intention of backing it up with your own money.

 

[sofia76]

If it were me, I'd get a lawyer AND I'd answer questions truthfully.

 

[cj1132]

Prior to this case, if LE showed up at my door and wanted to search my home, I would have been one to say come on in. I'd take a polygraph and submit to questioning freely because I'd have nothing to hid. Now, I'd ask for a warrant, refuse a polygraph and would agree to questioning, but have an attorney present.

 

[Herding Cats]

I think what's bothering me most is that people are deciding whose rights are more important than others. But that's just not the way it works. We all have the same rights; not one person has more, or less, than anyone else. It doesn't matter who you are - the rights are there. Even when, as Grainne Dhu said, they become unpopular, they still have rights. The same exact ones as everyone else.

I think that with K, D, and T running the investigation (and it can't be called anything less), that becomes a difficult thing to remember. Of course it's about Kyron - but it's not at the expense of others' rights. Of course we want Kyron home - but not at the expense of someone innocent whose life is ruined because they are not behaving according to how the parents want them to.

I'm trying to find the right way to phrase this. I see K, D, and T fighting for Kyron; I also see, in their loss and grief, a disregard for others' rights. I think that you can't go blasting others' rights, making threats and trying to intimidate people, just because you're hurting (probably beyond all understanding). Blind rage and extreme hurt and pain does not give someone the right to hurt others. It just doesn't.

And I worry that K, D, and T will harm the investigation in some way that even if they do find the person responsible, they will either not be able to get a conviction (because everyone believes someone else did it...) or muddy the waters so much that defense attorneys get an easy time in getting an acquittal.

Please, don't anyone ever think that I don't have incredible sympathy for the parents. I do. I also think that this is a very, very dangerous game they're playing, whether they realize it or not...and it could backfire in a massive, injurious way.

I want Kyron home - either alive or not. I want him to be reunited with his father. But I don't want to see that at the price of the disintegration of the very rights that protect you, me, and everyone else in the country...that just can't happen.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[TxLady2]

And what if, through no fault of your own, LE finds something, anything, that implicates you in any way? What if LE suspects you of being involved? What if, oh let's say... a landscaper ... convinces them that you were involved in plot to harm or kill someone. LE is under no obligation to tell you the truth. You could be as pure and innocent as the driven snow, but if they think (even mistakenly think) that you may be involved in the slightest, they WILL find something they can use against you. Also keep in mind that a search warrant specifically states where they are searching and what they are looking for and can seize if found. Give them free access without a warrant, and everything is fair game.

If the police were to show up at my door and ask to search my property for a missing child, I'd say go for it.

If they were to show up and ask to enter my house and search my computer, or phone records or *whatever*, I'd say show me the warrant --- after placing a call to my attorney. Especially if I knew I was innocent. LE is not in the business of establishing innocence. Their job is to catch criminals. If they want that sort of information, they are looking to make a connection to a crime.

Mistakenly implicating innocents does not help find Kyron. If anything, it does exactly what D, K, and T warn against in their threat to Dede... delays finding him and bringing him home.

Well said!!

 

[TxLady2]

To answer your question:
Lets just say someone snatched Kyron from that school, some creep who threw him over his shoulder and ran...and lets say I live a mile away and am at work all day long and this creep came through my living room window with Kyron while I was working, had Kyron write a letter to his dad saying "I'm going to die in 24 hours" When the police knock on my door later in the evening I don't allow them in without a warrant, and it takes them another 24 hours to obtain one.. they finally get in with a warrant, find the note that I would have never found myself, then through that note was able to locate a dead child.
The simple thought that every hour counts to find a child could lead to a situation such as this would cause me to welcome LE in with open arms. They can't find anything that implicates me unless I am involved somehow. I have more faith in LE than to believe they are in the business of finding something on an innocent person just because.
Maybe in another circumstance I would be different, but in the case of a missing child, who knows? Like I said before, shoot me before I get to a point in my life where my rights mean more than a childs.

In most instances, a completely innocent person could count on LE to do the right thing and have their i's dotted and their t's crossed. But that's not always the case. Innocent people have been convicted of crimes they didn't commit just because of overzealous DA's and a few corrupt cops. And some people have been wrongfully punished because they did the right thing.

I watched a show on ID last night where two innocent men were convicted of murdering a newlywed couple, all because of incompetent police work. One witness lied, and several witnesses who could give exonerating testimony for the defendants, were never called to testify. And the chief of police ordered a detective to lie on the witness stand. It happens.

Believe me, I respect LE 100%, I have a son who has been with the sheriff's dept. for going on 20 years. I know that most of them are trustworthy and do their jobs right. But I also know that there are crooked cops out there and there are corrupt DA's as well. NO profession is immune from corruption.

If I had nothing at all to do with the crime, if I didn't know the person involved in it, then yes, I would have no fear about cooperating. However, if I had a suspicion that someone was implicating me without proof... I would get a lawyer before I said a word... and I would make sure I read that warrant from front to back and start to finish, before I let them in my house to search. Might be a good idea to take pictures of all your hiding places before they search, too.
:innocent:

 

[debs]

In most instances, a completely innocent person could count on LE to do the right thing and have their i's dotted and their t's crossed. But that's not always the case. Innocent people have been convicted of crimes they didn't commit just because of overzealous DA's and a few corrupt cops. And some people have been wrongfully punished because they did the right thing.

I watched a show on ID last night where two innocent men were convicted of murdering a newlywed couple, all because of incompetent police work. One witness lied, and several witnesses who could give exonerating testimony for the defendants, were never called to testify. And the chief of police ordered a detective to lie on the witness stand. It happens.

Believe me, I respect LE 100%, I have a son who has been with the sheriff's dept. for going on 20 years. I know that most of them are trustworthy and do their jobs right. But I also know that there are crooked cops out there and there are corrupt DA's as well. NO profession is immune from corruption.

If I had nothing at all to do with the crime, if I didn't know the person involved in it, then yes, I would have no fear about cooperating. However, if I had a suspicion that someone was implicating me without proof... I would get a lawyer before I said a word... and I would make sure I read that warrant from front to back and start to finish, before I let them in my house to search. Might be a good idea to take pictures of all your hiding places before they search, too.
:innocent:

I saw the same show last night. Just to point out, the men may or may not have been innocent. What was proven was that they were convicted on false information. Doesn't say anything about whether they actually did it; just that the evidence used to prosecute them wasn't good.

 

[cluciano63]

Kind of OT, but on a crime show I saw some time ago (can't recall which case), a detective was talking about how people lie to LE all the time and about the dumbest things that don't even matter, except to the person. LE has to sort it all out, knowing that people lie when they face police. One woman witness had lied about where she exactly was when she saw a vehicle related to the case at some point, as she did not want it to be said publicly that she ate lunch at McDonalds, so she said she was at another restaurant nearby. Eventually they realized she could not have seen what she said she did from there and she admitted she had lied. She was not guilty of anything except the stupid lie.

 

[RoughlyCollie]

They can't find anything that implicates me unless I am involved somehow.

That is clearly wrong. For proof, look at people who have been acquitted of crimes -- not all of them are factually innocent of the crime charged, but plenty are.

Then there are all the people who have been arrested based on probable cause that turned out to wrong, so the cops have to let them go. I recall two instances of this: In one case, the blood was red paint. In another, it was from hamburger meat.

How about the folks who are badgered into false confessions? What about police reports that contain lies? What about statements made to police that are twisted to mean something the truthful person did not intend to say? What if LE has tunnel vision, wants to close the case and move on, and targets innocent you?

There are also people who are factually innocent who have been wrongfully convicted. LE sometimes makes mistakes, botches investigations, lies on search warrant applications, lies on lab reports or incompetently completes laboratory testing, lies to the jury, and so forth, and not only in cases in which the defendant is factually guilty.

What if your proof of innocence is that you could not have committed the crime, because at the time you are on an airplane (pre 9/11), and you have the ticket, the testimony of the airline through its employee, and the testimony of a friend who met you at the airport, to prove it? That's not enough according to one jury! Remember: Juries determine the credibility of the witnesses (can choose to believe all, some, or none of what they say) and the facts of the case. Keep in mind also that a factually innocent defendant's very best chance of being acquitted is at his trial.

Your innocence does not guarantee your safety from prosecution by the government. You can be accused, arrested, tried, and/or convicted of something you did not do. All it takes, ultimately, is a jury that is willing to believe LE over everyone else (including witnesses who lie to benefit LE to save their own skin) and that is unwilling to give the defendant the benefit of the doubt simply because he is a criminal defendant. (He wouldn't be here if he wasn't a criminal or even if he didn't do this crime, he sure did other crimes that he didn't get caught for.)

 

[gliving]

ITA, and thank you!!

I don't recall any case which I've followed for the last 10 years where the family of the victim was allowed to run the investigation, or give out details like this. Much less make public threats to someone they think is not cooperating. LE usually tells the family not to discuss the details with the media. I don't beleive for one second that LE sanctions this kind of thing. And it is certainly not helping from what I see. Kyron is still missing.

I don't like putting down the parents of this missing child, but it really causes me concern and doubt, and I don't see how it is helping find Kyron. I think this latest action has hurt their credibility to some degree, and I just have to wonder if LE is not silently pulling their own hair out right about now.

I agree. Now I read that Tony, Desiree and Kaine gave another interview to Dateline, which will air Monday, July 26, 2010 at 10:00 p.m./ET.

I hope this time they focus on Kyron.

http://primewriter.com/news-1246-headlines/?p=8279

 

[Kat010]

As a very young reporter, I worked with an older journalist who had won a Pulitzer for reporting on an innocent man who was in prison for a vicious crime. He had an alibi--he was at home sleeping in bed with his wife.

But the alibi was discounted because after all, a wife will lie for her husband. And an unreliable "eyewitness" id'd him as the criminal.

It took a long long time but the reporter finally got the truth out and far too many years later, this innocent man was cleared and finally released from prison. Of course, his life and that of his family's was ruined, but hey--they got a conviction, right? No, not right at all.

Cops aren't perfect. The good ones will tell you that. The good ones grieve over a mistake, endlessly. I know a great cop who was trying to get a drunken driver off the road and the guy ran into a young woman going out to buy dog food on sale for her dog. Killed her instantly. We studied that case, including photos, in our Citizen's Police Academy. The drunk had been arrested so many times before; wasn't even supposed to be driving. He told the cop that he was speeding because he knew he was drunk, but needed beer so he drove faster because then he'd be home quicker and off the roads faster. The cop involved taught that case and he still wasn't past raw pain.

Cops that aren't of this man's caliber are always right, always defensive, always arrogant, always prickly. Ditto DAs. It takes a lot of humility, compassion, and professionalism to be aware of the possibility for doing wrong and to self-examine instead of going on a single-minded hunt when the prey scent comes over them. That adrenaline rush *is* strong--I've been in a high speed situation flying to get to back up a cop interrupting a presumed breakup at a church. But that adrenaline is no excuse for long-term unwillingness to consider many options. IMHO.

And yes, I agree: KH has the bit between his teeth and ultimately, his tactics will backlash, IMHO. And if TH is arrested, possibly in court.

 

[BeanE]

I agree. Now I read that Tony, Desiree and Kaine gave another interview to Dateline, which will air Monday, July 26, 2010 at 10:00 p.m./ET.

I hope this time they focus on Kyron.

http://primewriter.com/news-1246-headlines/?p=8279

Based on Kaine's Wall of Hope interview, where he kept saying he didn't want to talk about Terri, he wanted to focus on Kyron, I think he will. Depending of course on when the Dateline piece was filmed.

 

[BeanE]

Time to post this set of six *excellent* videos. Here's the link to the first one. The other five are linked in the column to the right of this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=player_embedded#!


You can also download and save YouTube videos, by the way:
http://www.saveyoutube.com/

 

[human]

There are something like 10,000 federal crimes. There are even more state crimes, if you add up all fifty states. And then there is the IRS, which has developed into its own legal system (and a very scary one).

I have no way to know if I am in full compliance of the law at this moment or not. I think I am. I try to live a law abiding life. But I do not know for a fact that I am.

For instance, a couple months ago, I bought a dried flower arrangement at a craft fair. It came in a basket with beads and shells and feathers decorating it.

Do I know the names of every single bit of plant matter in that arrangement? No. Therefore, I don't know if it is fully legal in my state or not.

Do I know the provenance of the shells and feathers that decorate it? No. Therefore, I don't know if it is fully legal in my state or not.

Do I know whether the person I bought this arrangement from illegally acquired or stole any element of the arrangement? No. I spent maybe ten minutes with her total and that included other people asking her about her display. Therefore, I do not know whether I received illegal or stolen goods. I didn't even make much of an attempt to ascertain that I did not; I could have asked for receipts showing provenance of all the elements but I didn't.

That arrangement could be in violation of a number of laws and regulations and I do not know it. Add to that the fact that ignorance is not a valid defence.

So, say I were friends with someone that I believed was being unjustly accused of a terrible crime. And even though I know that I am innocent of anything at all to do with that crime, the police are now knocking on my door and they want to question me.

Are they offering me legal immunity for anything they might see in my home that is illegal but not directly related to the search for Kyron? If not, so sorry, go get a search warrant.

Are they offering me immunity for anything I might say during questioning not directly related to the search for Kyron? If not, so sorry, I won't answer a single question without legal representation. And I highly doubt a lawyer would advise me to answer any questions!

There was a case in Seattle last winter where an innocent bystander was accused of some piffling offence for asserting his right not to identify himself without probable cause. The police officer proceeded to threaten him and then lied about it in order to charge him.

Too bad the victim turned out to be a computer expert who was able to figure out the city's complicated surveillance databank and prove that the officer was lying. The videotape exonerated the victim.

And now, literally thousands of cases from that jurisdiction are being re-examined because when the system is caught red handed once, it tends to make everyone suspicious.

I lack a certain amount of faith in LE and it is founded on very real cases of malfeasance, some high profile, some not.

I have had instances with LE that mirror the one from the author of the "bloody sock" experience, so my faith in LE is not very high.

I also no many people who have committed crimes because of my job-I meet lots and lots of people,, hundreds and know about their lives.

There are so many that commit crimes over and over and over again, and nothing happens. I think, "Finally this loser is going to pay the penalty," but nope, nothing happens. They are let off with some kind of suspended sentence. And these are not people that can afford a high priced attorney. I'm sure they get a public defender.

This past year we were coming through the customs at LAX. We had purchased a shark head that we had seen in the same shop for many years.

The man in customs told us that they were now prohibited, but he let us have it anyway.

I have seen LE here be very abusive. And I know it happens. They seem to like to hassle people with little issues.

They also know who the really bad guys are and pray that they can get something on them that will stick.

 

[RoughlyCollie]

I agree. Now I read that Tony, Desiree and Kaine gave another interview to Dateline, which will air Monday, July 26, 2010 at 10:00 p.m./ET. I hope this time they focus on Kyron. http://primewriter.com/news-1246-headlines/?p=8279

I hope so too, but I wonder how they can do that? What is there to say?

LE searched, can't find him, continues to follow tips and leads generated from them, searches in accordance with leads. We are concentrating on trying to force people who have direct knowledge about where Kyron is to talk. No one has told us where Kyron is, and we think TH took him, so we are targeting her and her known associates. Now, as part of trying to force people to talk (ie., confess), here is some more dirt on them.

Oh, and we firmly believe Kyron is alive, so please keep an eye out for him. This is what we are doing to prepare for his return. This is how badly we feel. Here is his picture. This is the amount of the reward for information leading to his return. If you see him, call 911. Here is the tip line phone number.

This show, if nothing else, will inform more people about what has happened to Kyron. Maybe it will jog some people's memories or convince someone who doesn't want to get involved to call LE. Maybe it will convince one or more of TH's friends to talk (or to say more) to LE. If Kyron is alive, maybe it will lead to his return.

But whoever took Kryon will be unmoved by this. How does it benefit him or her to confess? Confession leads straight to a permanent address change for that person. If that person has an accomplice, maybe it will persuade the accomplice to talk -- but that will be easier to accomplish if the perp and/or the purported accomplice were charged with a crime.

 

[cluciano63]

A while back, a month or more ago, there was a report that some people near the school and the Hormans' home did not allow searchers to search their properties. Should the names of these people have been given to Desiree and Kaine so that they could call out these people as well? These people "weren't cooperating" either and we don't know if they had anything to hide about Kyron, or if they grow pot, or if they simply were exercising their rights.

 

[angelmom]

Just catching up on all of this. I've read the debate back and forth on DeDe.

All I want to say is, she isn't talking, Terri isn't talking, and Kyron is still missing. I just wish someone who knew something would talk and help him get found. The fact that these two are waving the "Rights" banner to remain silent just pisses me off to no end.

I know they have rights. I am hearing a lot about all of the rights they have. And I get sick of hearing, in every case, the rights of all people in those cases and how those people have the right to use their rights to protect themselves. Well you know what, they shouldn't have done the crime in first place or gotten involved with someone who did a crime. Then there wouldn't be anything to have to protect.

BBM...this right here is why we have these rights. How do you know either one of them did any crime? Or got involved with anyone who did any crime? You have come to that conclusion based on a few very vague statements from LE, and a LOT of innuendo and spin from DY, KH, and TY, along with the media. You have already determined that TH is guilty...based on what exactly?

I'm not a lawyer, but I think LE cannot force you to come in and talk to them unless they arrest you. I don't think they can force you to talk to them either.

http://boingboing.net/2008/07/28/law-prof-and-cop-agr.html

Quoting myself b/c this video is completely germaine to the conversation and well worth watching.