Yeah, if they didn't before, they will then!
The roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
Yeah, if they didn't before, they will then!
Interesting...the flashlight was found wiped down of prints, including having been opened up and the batteries also wiped down. No one needed to do that to the "family flashlight" unless it is somehow incriminating. It also could possible be the bludgeon- it is the correct size and weight to have caused such an injury. Yet, you don't feel it is significant. IDI probably wouldn't, simply because it DOES point to it's involvement. It may not have been the weapon, but neighbors reported "moving lights" in the kitchen area (where it was found) and it could have been used to walk around the dark basement.
However I do agree that the shoeprint may not be significant. Plenty of workmen wear those shoes, as do many LE. Plus, there were men in that room taking out the Christmas decorations. (LHP's husband and son -or was is son-in-law?) I don't necessarily think it is part of the crime. Possibly, but not definitely.
I totally agree, being a gun owner myself.
How many times do we have to repost the photo of JB's triangular mark alongside similar marks on other strangulation victims before some people see the similarity?
I really wish you wouldnt label me. i have said multiple times Im not IDI and Im not RDI. I like to discuss and learn other peoples ideas and opinions.
On to the flashlight, it could have been (and i have seen this written in other crime reports about the case) that the batteries were put in there at the factory and thats why there are no prints. If you care to google it, there are differences between being "wiped down" and "absent of prints that could be recovered" "Wiped down" is ST biased words. Lastly, CNN and Time magazine reported in 1998 that the flashlight was missing for quite a while..the BP denied this; HOWEVER the story writer from Time states he stands by his story and knows from direct sources the flashlight was missing from the evidence room. The flashlight could be nothing, or it could be something. I dont know..I personally think it was left by law enforcement and is not pertinent to the murder. That doesnt make me IDI! I also believe that about the shoes. That doesn't mean anyone else has to believe as I do..I dont care. Im simply stating my opinion which is what I thought one does on a forum. Sorry I dont have the link to the ccn/time story, but its on the world wide web..something I have read in the many thousands of pages I have read over the years.
I really dont understand why the discussions here get so adversarial. People are only sharing their observations and opinions. just because some people dont think there is enough proof that the Ramseys killed their daughter doesnt mean they are stupid or looking for a fight or refusing to see the truth. Its their opinion. The people that believe the R's are guilty are not evildoers, they simply have come to a different conclusion. Opinions dont need to be forced on other posters. This isnt a contest to see how many people are right. we dont know what happened to this child. Just because some people believe an intruder did it doesnt mean they can prove it, and they shouldnt have to..they are looking at things/evidence and interpreting it thier own way. Posters here seem quite intelligent. Im getting off my soap box now. Im not trying to be rude..maybe some people like being grouped in to their particular label..I dont.
If everyone agreed and didnt give the RDI a run for their money, the discussion would be null. Questioning the RDI beliefs and bringing other thoughts to the "evidence" is not meant to be inflammatory, its part of the discussion.
Maybe RDI..I dont know. but maybe they didnt and this is all as strange as it appears; and what a horrific tragedy..If it was me, I would want the benefit of the doubt..and there is doubt...so far (except opinion), it hasnt been determined either way. I really hope we find out the truth in my lifetime!
I was not labeling you. My mention of IDI was just that, a mention because that IS what IDI usually thinks about the flashlight. LE described the batteries as being wiped down. Batteries usually do not come in those kind of maglights, and even if they did, someone's prints would be on them.
My post was not adversarial in the least. Sorry you chose to see it that way.
My post was not adversarial in the least. Sorry you chose to see it that way.
I disagree with every word you typed.
wonderllama
Registered Snoozer
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2010
- Messages
- 708
- Reaction score
- 349
You wacky American folks and your guns! 
We Australian's use sticks and boomerangs!
We Australian's use sticks and boomerangs!
Agatha_C
New Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2010
- Messages
- 2,309
- Reaction score
- 23
You wacky American folks and your guns!
We Australian's use sticks and boomerangs!
This made me laugh! Thank you Wonder, laughter is the best gift of them all...
otg
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2010
- Messages
- 2,410
- Reaction score
- 194
(snip)
MurriFlower,
I can see in the mark what you refer to as being the possible result of a gun muzzle, but I see how it could just as easily be anything else cylindrically shaped -- or even more so, pentagon-shaped. What I dont see is how pressing it against the neck would cause the bright red discoloration shown in the autopsy photos. Add to that the fact that this type of mark/pattern can be found in numerous other photos of strangulation victims and I tend to think it was caused by the ligature. This was why I thought there must be an anatomical reason for it that I had to investigate (my not having much of a medical background).
Also on the gun theory, I would point out how out of the ordinary it would be to hold a gun against a persons neck. If a person is held against his will at gunpoint, isnt it much more common that the gun would be pointed at the head, or maybe even in the back to herd them in a certain direction, or in the chest to hold someone down as you suggest?
So... Taking the photo you enhanced, I took a few more steps. First, I turned it 90 degrees, and then cropped it a little:
Then I extended lines through the two most pronounced sides of the concentrated area, and one more where the third side of the Carotid Triangle would be (which also runs approximately along the same general line as the fainter area of bruising/ecchymosis). And actually, the lines of the Carotid Triangle are not perfectly straight (I posted a drawing for reference at the bottom showing the structures that form its boundaries.):
Then I adjusted the contrast to make the discoloration stand out a little more:
In this photo, you should be able to see in the center of the dark trapezoidal shape a much darker, oval-shaped area which is where I believe the initial blood leak occurred. Here is the same photo with the darkest area outlined in an oval shape:
What I believe caused this is a blood vessel or some capillaries burst while the initial strangulation occurred. This happened under the surface in the center of the darkest area shown in the photo just above here. From there, it pooled out forming what would have been a circular pattern, were it not somewhat restricted by the boundaries of the neck muscles that form this triangle. With this restriction, the blood continued to extravasate at a diminishing rate leeching into the upper boundaries of the triangle, accounting for the fainter area of redness toward the chin. The following photo shows where the pooling would have occurred in a circular pattern were it not within the Carotid Triangle:
It is for all of the above reasons that I also dont feel this mark is from a burn of some sort (Sorry, Steely.) The other mark though on her right cheek may very well be from a burn. Ill have to look into that next, but this one is what always puzzled me the most.
I should point out that the triangle looks a bit different from the side than it does from the front because of the angle of view. Here is a picture from the front showing where the Carotid Triangle would be (I cropped the photo so its not quite as gruesome.):
BTW, the vagus nerve that everyone likes to talk about runs through this area, just between the carotid artery and the jugular vein. The vagus nerve is so named from the latin word for wandering, because of the way it meanders its way through the body from the brain to various organs in the abdominal area. Vagus comes from the same root word as vagrant, vagabond, and vague (I just love etymology.).
Carotid Triangle Boundaries (or sides of the triangle) are referred to as:
.
MurriFlower,
I can see in the mark what you refer to as being the possible result of a gun muzzle, but I see how it could just as easily be anything else cylindrically shaped -- or even more so, pentagon-shaped. What I dont see is how pressing it against the neck would cause the bright red discoloration shown in the autopsy photos. Add to that the fact that this type of mark/pattern can be found in numerous other photos of strangulation victims and I tend to think it was caused by the ligature. This was why I thought there must be an anatomical reason for it that I had to investigate (my not having much of a medical background).
Also on the gun theory, I would point out how out of the ordinary it would be to hold a gun against a persons neck. If a person is held against his will at gunpoint, isnt it much more common that the gun would be pointed at the head, or maybe even in the back to herd them in a certain direction, or in the chest to hold someone down as you suggest?
So... Taking the photo you enhanced, I took a few more steps. First, I turned it 90 degrees, and then cropped it a little:
Then I extended lines through the two most pronounced sides of the concentrated area, and one more where the third side of the Carotid Triangle would be (which also runs approximately along the same general line as the fainter area of bruising/ecchymosis). And actually, the lines of the Carotid Triangle are not perfectly straight (I posted a drawing for reference at the bottom showing the structures that form its boundaries.):
Then I adjusted the contrast to make the discoloration stand out a little more:
In this photo, you should be able to see in the center of the dark trapezoidal shape a much darker, oval-shaped area which is where I believe the initial blood leak occurred. Here is the same photo with the darkest area outlined in an oval shape:
What I believe caused this is a blood vessel or some capillaries burst while the initial strangulation occurred. This happened under the surface in the center of the darkest area shown in the photo just above here. From there, it pooled out forming what would have been a circular pattern, were it not somewhat restricted by the boundaries of the neck muscles that form this triangle. With this restriction, the blood continued to extravasate at a diminishing rate leeching into the upper boundaries of the triangle, accounting for the fainter area of redness toward the chin. The following photo shows where the pooling would have occurred in a circular pattern were it not within the Carotid Triangle:
It is for all of the above reasons that I also dont feel this mark is from a burn of some sort (Sorry, Steely.) The other mark though on her right cheek may very well be from a burn. Ill have to look into that next, but this one is what always puzzled me the most.
I should point out that the triangle looks a bit different from the side than it does from the front because of the angle of view. Here is a picture from the front showing where the Carotid Triangle would be (I cropped the photo so its not quite as gruesome.):
BTW, the vagus nerve that everyone likes to talk about runs through this area, just between the carotid artery and the jugular vein. The vagus nerve is so named from the latin word for wandering, because of the way it meanders its way through the body from the brain to various organs in the abdominal area. Vagus comes from the same root word as vagrant, vagabond, and vague (I just love etymology.).
Carotid Triangle Boundaries (or sides of the triangle) are referred to as:
- Posterior (back) line of the triangle is the Sternocleidomastoideus.
- Superior (upper) line is the Stylohyoideus and the posterior belly of the Digastricus.
- Inferior (lower) line is the superior belly of the Omohyoideus.
.
my_tee_mouse
Done. Put a Fork in Me.
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2008
- Messages
- 3,580
- Reaction score
- 38
Snort!You wacky American folks and your guns!
We Australian's use sticks and boomerangs!
I tried to "use" a boomerang once. All I succeeded in doing was whacking myself in the nose with it!
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf
"A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck."
How would the ligature and bleeding underneath cause the surface of the skin to erode and have a "dried" surface?
"A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck."
How would the ligature and bleeding underneath cause the surface of the skin to erode and have a "dried" surface?
my_tee_mouse
Done. Put a Fork in Me.
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2008
- Messages
- 3,580
- Reaction score
- 38
I'm not a doctor, but I am a mom who has treated many a skinned knee...and a childhood tomboy who lived my wonder years with huge bandaids on each knee, so I can say from that angle of experience that abrasions break the skin, which in turn causes oozing, which in turn will dry. This oozing and drying is what later becomes a scab.
The fact that this abrasion was "dried" brings up a good point...in order to do its thing and ooze and then dry, JBR had to have been alive when the lower left neck abrasion was made, no?
These pictures are VERY graphic, so keep that in mind please.
http://zyberzoom.com/ComparisonPhotos.html
I also find it very interesting that John placed a scarf around JonBenet in her coffin. It wasn't a sentimental item, but a new one, he had recently purchased. Whom had he bought it for?
There was several links posted, including the previous one. If you go to ACR JB archives and go to "other people's pages" Ruthee's section has photos of side-by-side strangulation victims, one of whom is JB. The other was a woman strangled with a scarf. The large triangular marks are almost identical.
Sorry- this is not a curling iron (or any other kind) of burn. This mark is the result of blood pooling under the skin at the point of deepest pressure. And fairly common in strangulation victims.
Dee Dee, you have posted the other link previously, so thought this might be a good second reference. I find it quite unusual that there is always at least a similar if not exact mark, when strangulation occurs with a soft object, such as a scarf. I can only surmise that the skin must get pinched, leaving this mark.
I agree that this is in no way a burn.
otg
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2010
- Messages
- 2,410
- Reaction score
- 194
Dang, Steely, are you gonna make me go looking at all those dead people all over again? (I hate this part of the job.)
What I said was that this type of mark/pattern can be found in numerous other photos of strangulation victims. I haven't seen many pictures that are as close up as the ones we now have available of JB that we can enhance the colors and try to figure out the subtleties of where the highest concentrations of blood are. So if you expect that, I'm sorry I'll have to disappoint. But what I can show you will be similar types of marks/patterns in the same area on either side of the neck in other victims. Give me some search time and I'll see what I can find.
That notation was part of the complete examination that Dr. Meyer did inside of ten minutes inside the house. Let me say that again: TEN MINUTES! -- from entering till leaving.
Here is the complete paragraph that that phrase came from:
The body of this six year old female was first seen by me after I was called to an address identified as 755 - 15th street in Boulder, Colorado, on 12/26/96. I arrived at the scene approximately 8 PM on 12/26 and entered the house where the decedent's body was located at approximately 8:20PM. I initially viewed the body in the living room of the house. The decedent was laying on her back on the floor, covered by a blanket and a Colorado Avalanche sweatshirt. On removing these two items from the top of the body the decedent was found to be lying on her back with her arms extended up over her head. The head was turned to the right. A brief examination of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck and a ligature around the right wrist. Also noted was a small area of abrasion or contusion below the right ear on the lateral aspect of the right cheek. A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck. After examining the body, I left the residence at approximately 8:30PM.
Later, in his "detailed account", the only description he gives is the title of this thread.Steely, don't let the word abrasion throw you off. It did me. Read again what I wrote in the [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5923772&postcount=1"]opening post[/ame] about what an abrasion is to a dermatologist. It's not based on my opinion, it's from the definitions I found online. I have no medical background whatsoever (unless you would consider my First Aid Merit Badge in Boy Scouts, but I don't usually put that on my resume'). All I can do is research the same as you. If you disagree, I can live with that (most people do).
.
That goes for me, too.
Bummer, the link says "GeoCities...this page no longer available." Can anyone else access the the photos?
Someone had it and posted it here a while back, don't recall who.
Ruthee has been dead several years, so most of her site is no longer hosted online, and ACR, to save money, has removed a lot as well, unfortunately. All the R depos are gone. Too bad, they were invaluable research tools.