The “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion”

[otg]

(snipped for brevity)[FONT=&quot]
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Well Otg, after having nightmares due to your Grays Anatomy pictures and the horror that was preparing for my instructors anatomy part of my A&P courses, I slept, a couple of hours.

(That's the second time recently I caused women to start having nightmares. I'm beginning to worry about me.)

"That's anatomy and physiology," he said, grinning ear to ear. "The complexity of the human body is that in it's strength, are it's most vulnerable weaknesses."

Brilliant man, he gave me a headache!

I agree with that! He was a brilliant man. I'm going to remember that quote.

I found this article, which gives background on the 'choking game'. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5706a1.htm

One excerpt is:

The earliest choking-game death was identified as occurring in 1995. Three or fewer deaths occurred annually during 1995--2004; however, 22 deaths occurred in 2005, 35 in 2006, and nine in 2007. Seventy-one (86.6%) of the 82 decedents were male, and the age range of decedents was 6--19 years, with a mean age of 13.3 years (standard deviation = 2.1) and a median age of 13 years. Age distribution of the 82 choking-game decedents during 1995--2007 differed from that of the 5,101 youths aged 6--19 years whose deaths were attributed to suicide by hanging/suffocation during 1999--2005§ (Figure).

Among the 70 deaths for which sufficient detail was reported, 67 (95.7%) occurred while the decedent was alone. Among the 42 deaths for which sufficient detail was reported, 39 (92.9%) parents of decedents said they were not aware of the choking game until the death of their child.

Choking-game deaths occurred in 31 states; no geographic clustering was evident. Deaths did not vary significantly by season or by day of the week. No information regarding decedent drug use, race/ethnicity, or socioeconomic status was available.


Interesting and this leads me to further believe why the scarf was placed with JonBenet. There are a lot more articles, I just found the 1995 date interesting in this one.

Thanks for the link, Sunnie. I'll add that to my reading list. I do enjoy reading about this kind of stuff. Guess I'm kind of weird in that; but hey... that's just the way I rolls.

I’ll have to read it, because I thought earlier when you were talking about a “choking game”, I thought you were talking about erotic asphyxiation that some have suggested. I see after looking closer at it, it’s about deliberately causing the euphoric feeling associated with hypoxia. My apologies for misunderstanding earlier what you were talking about.

So, could JonBenet’s strangulation be related to that? I would have to say yes, that it is possible. What we are talking about is something mostly kids do for a thrill. Also, I don't think the strangulation would have to happen long enough for it to leave marks on the neck before the effects of hypoxia would occur. One more thing I have to add is that I can’t imagine an adult being involved in something like this. You?
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[Steely]

OTG, just thinking of possibilities here. Something I read elsewhere and thought I'd throw it out there. We're just discussing all possibilities from all angles. (clipped)
I wasn't there. I don't know what happened. None of us do. I'm just thinking out loud. I respect everyone else's theories -- even IDI which I really don't believe -- and I'd like the same. Thank you.

belimom, this is exactly what I am doing and what I would like...thinking out loud and while respecting other's theories...I'm hoping people will at least consider mine. I think we need to look at this from ALL angles...ALL scenarios. I think LE may have been onto part of it but MISSED something. I read the quote from Goethe on a pathology website..."We only see what we know." LE may not have seen something because they did not know to look for it...perhaps one of us may stumble across something which LE missed. That's why we are here, right? Trying to figure out a puzzle with limited pieces...some of which might not even fit this puzzle?

 

[Agatha_C]

Well Otg, after having nightmares due to your Grays Anatomy pictures and the horror that was preparing for my instructors anatomy part of my A&P courses, I slept, a couple of hours. I thought about what I typed earlier and I can't get out of my mind why strangulation by one device, differs in looks from another. When we were in A&P, we had several 'corpses' used for our anatomy portion of class work. One of the bodies was a young girl who had been strangled.

At the time, we all thought that was very morbid and spent more time trying to disassociate from her fate, rather than pay attention to the lessons her body bore. The neck is surprisingly strong. There are vulnerable area, near the spine, the hyoid bone, the thyroid, glands, nerves and the jugular veins, to name just a few. But there is a lot of muscle tissue also. My instructor used to tell us "It takes a lot of muscle to hold up those fat heads of yours."

So, we asked, how is someone so easily strangled? He looked at us like we had three heads and said, "It's caused by severe hypoxia." Ummm, but why is it so easy to kill someone this way?

"That's anatomy and physiology," he said, grinning ear to ear. "The complexity of the human body is that in it's strength, are it's most vulnerable weaknesses."

Brilliant man, he gave me a headache! So, the past several minutes, I researched strangling games, for curiosity sake. To think about this possibility, I had to think about whether there was a possibility, let alone a probability, that JonBenet could have been exposed to these behaviors or games. The R's were a mixed family, with adult children and smaller children. They were active in church, with children of different ages, sports, travel and communities. There is also speculation put forth concerning Patsy and her sisters possible abuse.

I found this article, which gives background on the 'choking game'. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5706a1.htm

One excerpt is:

The earliest choking-game death was identified as occurring in 1995. Three or fewer deaths occurred annually during 1995--2004; however, 22 deaths occurred in 2005, 35 in 2006, and nine in 2007. Seventy-one (86.6%) of the 82 decedents were male, and the age range of decedents was 6--19 years, with a mean age of 13.3 years (standard deviation = 2.1) and a median age of 13 years. Age distribution of the 82 choking-game decedents during 1995--2007 differed from that of the 5,101 youths aged 6--19 years whose deaths were attributed to suicide by hanging/suffocation during 1999--2005§ (Figure).

Among the 70 deaths for which sufficient detail was reported, 67 (95.7%) occurred while the decedent was alone. Among the 42 deaths for which sufficient detail was reported, 39 (92.9%) parents of decedents said they were not aware of the choking game until the death of their child.

Choking-game deaths occurred in 31 states; no geographic clustering was evident. Deaths did not vary significantly by season or by day of the week. No information regarding decedent drug use, race/ethnicity, or socioeconomic status was available.


Interesting and this leads me to further believe why the scarf was placed with JonBenet. There are a lot more articles, I just found the 1995 date interesting in this one.

Sunni, excellent post...... :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[otg]

OTG, I'm not arguing with you! I promise! I honestly think your explanation is probably much more likely than a curling iron (still working on this theory and I realize it SOUNDS implausible but I'm preparing to share more about it.) I think you've done an absolutely outstanding job researching this. I am so impressed by your thought provoking and information filled posts. I appreciate your research so very much.

What about the possiblity the mark was made through more than one process? (Possibly two or more contributing factors? Possibly at different times...before, and/or during, and/or after death) I remember seeing a photo of this mark where someone had circled an area and wrote there was a deeper area of abrasion at the lower edge. Can someone post that link if they have it handy? Thanks!

Steely, I didn't even suspect you were arguing. I really do appreciate other opinions and even criticism of my own (well... mild criticism anyway ).

I really should start reading all the posts before I start to respond to the last one I was on. A couple of times now I've done that, and then after posting saw that it was already covered by someone else or I was already off-topic by the time I answered. By reading ahead now, I see that Murri has posted what I think you are talking about on the "deeper area of abrasion at the lower edge". Do I think it possible that the mark was made by more than one cause? Yes, it certainly would be possible. But I would have to ask for what purpose? I know you think it could be from a curling iron, but do you think it was accidental or deliberate?

IMO (and that's all it is), the mark is a reaction of the body to the trauma caused by the ligature. What I didn't understand before was how that kind of mark would be produced, and why it would be so similar to other marks in the very same location as on other strangulation victims. That's why I looked into it, and when I was satisfied with the answer, I shared it here with everyone to see if anyone agreed that it was plausible.

But please, Steely, don't let me discourage you from seeking other explanations. If you have another idea, I'll listen; and if you can convince me I'm wrong, I'll freely admit it.

I appreciate your posts. I can tell that your give what you read a lot of thought, and you ask questions. I do like that.
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[otg]

On the forensic scales shown in the photos, this is a set of "Bureau Reference Scales" sold here:
http://www.vastacademy.com.au/vsp_subcat/3/59
The larger L-shaped scale is 15cm by 30cm:

This is the one belonging to BPD being used next to some of the footprints in the WC (I'm not sure what the item is that is circled.):

The last photo is also the one where the supposed child's footprint/carabiner was taken from and enlarged (If you look, you can see it in the photo.). Each number on the scale is 1cm, and there are marks for every half cm.
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[otg]

Don't you think that the 'caribiner' shape is actually raised rather than indented?

Murri, if you look at the larger photo I just posted, you can see the shape more in perspective to the other things around it. Looking at how the shadows are formed in the other shoe impressions, I would have to agree with you that the outline that was speculated to be a child's footprint does look to be more raised than it does pressed in. But it doesn't really look raised either, because there don't appear to be any shadows at all. In fact, the dirt/mold on the floor doesn't seem to be disturbed where it runs through. It's almost as if it's only a light spot on the film rather than on the floor itself.

Weird. I don't know what it is.

BTW, good job with the photo editing, bringing out the subtleties in the colors (oops -- that's colours to you).
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[MurriFlower]

Murri, if you look at the larger photo I just posted, you can see the shape more in perspective to the other things around it. Looking at how the shadows are formed in the other shoe impressions, I would have to agree with you that the outline that was speculated to be a child's footprint does look to be more raised than it does pressed in. But it doesn't really look raised either, because there don't appear to be any shadows at all. In fact, the dirt/mold on the floor doesn't seem to be disturbed where it runs through. It's almost as if it's only a light spot on the film rather than on the floor itself.

Weird. I don't know what it is.

BTW, good job with the photo editing, bringing out the subtleties in the colors (oops -- that's colours to you).
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Yes, I see it is half the size I thought. Notice in this picture how the outline stands out with highlights and shadow, so I think it is a raised area. Inside this is very smooth, so whatever it is has a 'rim' with a channel and the item must have been fairly heavy to force the floor dirt/mould/silica into the ridges. Notice the straight line from the bottom of the article leading up to the right? It looks indented and might be from the cord. If so, then there must have been something heavy on the whole area, so maybe the cord and the 'caribiner' shaped thing was stood on by the IDI.

I tried to improve the circled area, but without much success, all I can guess is that it is plant material of some kind, leaf/flower petal.

 

[SunnieRN]

Otg, no, I do not think that the 'choking game' or 'fainting game' is something most adults would participate in. I do still think the kids could have been aware of 'the game' though. This could have made this whole incident start.

 

[MurriFlower]

I've heard about the Hi Tec boot print being in the WC, but I just noticed there is a clear outline of what looks like XP on the print in this photo.

Does anyone have an idea what brand of shoe/sneaker this could be?

 

[otg]

I've heard about the Hi Tec boot print being in the WC, but I just noticed there is a clear outline of what looks like XP on the print in this photo.

Does anyone have an idea what brand of shoe/sneaker this could be?

This is from January 11, 1998:

"The New Yorker also reported that dark fibers found on the body did not match clothing found in the house, and two types of footprints, including one near the body, did not match any footwear belonging to the parents."

http://www.cnn.com/US/9801/11/jonbenet/index.html
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[DeeDee249]

This is from January 11, 1998:

"The New Yorker also reported that dark fibers found on the body did not match clothing found in the house, and two types of footprints, including one near the body, did not match any footwear belonging to the parents."

http://www.cnn.com/US/9801/11/jonbenet/index.html
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Well, we know the first comment is false- dark fibers matching JR's shirt were found on the inner part of JB's panties. They are from JR's Israeli wool shirt which obviously was in the house.
As for the footprint, I notice it mentions the parents exclusively and does not mention BR who actually DID have a pair of Hi-Tecs (though his parents denied it he himself told LE he had a pair of Hi-Tec sneakers.

 

[otg]

I don't think it was until literally years later that the public found out about Burke's owning a pair of Hi-Tek. But notice the date of the article -- it was only a year and a little after. (My gosh, has it been that long? 14 years.)
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[Ames]

I have no idea 'if' the fainting game occurred in the R household, or, if it did, who was involved. Smaller children mimic older children. I have, for quite some time, believed Burke to be involved in JonBenet's molestation, whether in play, experimentation or abuse. I have no idea as to what actually occurred, however I can not rule out a possibility of this having occurred.

The one thing I have learned, in life, is be prepared to be surprised. The R's were around many people, had a lot of access to the internet, video games and books. I don't find role playing, imitation at all far fetched.

Do I think that if Burke, or Burke and a friend were involved that they would have purposely killed JonBenet? No, but stranger things have certainly happened.

I have never thought that Burke had anything to do with JB's death...BUT..he just acts very non-chalant about it, always has. It's just weird...J and P acted that way too, though.

 

[otg]

Well, we know the first comment is false- dark fibers matching JR's shirt were found on the inner part of JB's panties. They are from JR's Israeli wool shirt which obviously was in the house.
As for the footprint, I notice it mentions the parents exclusively and does not mention BR who actually DID have a pair of Hi-Tecs (though his parents denied it he himself told LE he had a pair of Hi-Tec sneakers.

Actually... I know what you're saying, DD, but what's really false about anything in that statement? Pay close attention:

"...dark fibers found on the body did not match clothing found in the house, and two types of footprints, including one near the body, did not match any footwear belonging to the parents."
​

Of course, we now know better on both of those points.
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[MurriFlower]

Actually... I know what you're saying, DD, but what's really false about anything in that statement? Pay close attention:

"...dark fibers found on the body did not match clothing found in the house, and two types of footprints, including one near the body, did not match any footwear belonging to the parents."
​

Of course, we now know better on both of those points.
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and two types of footprints, including one near the body, did not match any footwear belonging to the parents

What is it we know better about the footprints otg? BR owned a pair of Hi-Tec boots, but do they match for size? What about the other print?

 

[Steely]

I have never thought that Burke had anything to do with JB's death...BUT..he just acts very non-chalant about it, always has. It's just weird...J and P acted that way too, though.

Years ago I thought he was involved somehow and the parents were covering for him. But now I don't think he was involved in her death but may have known about (or been lied to about) her death. Part of the reason I suspect that is from reports of his behavior. Why wasn't he asking a lot of questions? He'd been told something so he didn't need to. His possible voice on the 911 call indicates this is a possibility too. This is why I suspect he may have been taken to say his goodbyes and pray as a family over her (footprint by her body and parents denial he owned that type boot) and I suspect he may have left a barbie and/or barbie nightgown. ("that's not supposed to be there") Why would the parents want to deny he had that kind of boot? He lived in the home...but they claimed they kept that door locked with that high latch to keep the kids out. An intruder wouldn't be worried about keeping JB off that moldy cellar floor...a parent would and a parent wouldn't want a sibling in that cellar without shoes on what with the mold and broken glass and all...

Learning that BR left the home clutching a new Nintendo game made me dismiss any lingering suspicions BR was involved in an asphyxia game gone wrong. I didn't think at nine that was very likely anyway but if you've ever had a nine year old boy with a new Nintendo game...odds are pretty good BR was up late playing but not with his sister. Anyone know what game it was?

 

[otg]

What is it we know better about the footprints otg? BR owned a pair of Hi-Tec boots, but do they match for size? What about the other print?

What I meant by that is that the statement "...did not match any footwear belonging to the parents," is correct; but we know now that at least one (the Hi-Tek) might have belonged to BR. Do we know that it did belong to BR? No. But despite their initial denial, BR did own a pair -- the ones with a compass on the laces. We don't know the size of it, but the BPD probably does.

And on your earlier question about the "XP" seen on the other one... I looked, Murri, but couldn't find a specific brand of shoes. If you google "xp shoes", you'll find lots of references, but I didn't find any images of what the soles of any of them would show. Thanks, BTW, for the all the image enhancements. You're really good at that!
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[otg]

(snip, snip)

He lived in the home...but they claimed they kept that door locked with that high latch to keep the kids out.

Not that this is germane to the point, but does anyone really believe that high latch would have kept a 10-yo out?

It might have succeeded in keeping out JB, and it may have kept BR out when he was younger, but I don't think it would have prevented an inquisitive 10-yo boy from finding a nearby chair or something to reach the latch and manage to get in. JMHO.
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[Steely]

(snip, snip)


Not that this is germane to the point, but does anyone really believe that high latch would have kept a 10-yo out?

It might have succeeded in keeping out JB, and it may have kept BR out when he was younger, but I don't think it would have prevented an inquisitive 10-yo boy from finding a nearby chair or something to reach the latch and manage to get in. JMHO.
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OTG...absolutely not...especially with Christmas presents being stored inside!!!!I posted on this a while back...that BR or both of the kids might have snuck into the cellar room to see what their Christmas gifts were going to be. A nearby chair...or were there any LADDERS in the home? Or a boy could lift up a younger sibling to reach the latch. I also wondered if sneaking into the cellar was involved in JB's death. I also read that strangulations can happen on LADDER rungs. The "partially wrapped" presents with FAO Scwhartz wrapping paper seen in the crime scene photos in the wine cellar right by the blanket are very suspicious.

 

[otg]

OTG...absolutely not...especially with Christmas presents being stored inside!!!!I posted on this a while back...that BR or both of the kids might have snuck into the cellar room to see what their Christmas gifts were going to be. A nearby chair...or were there any LADDERS in the home? Or a boy could lift up a younger sibling to reach the latch. I also wondered if sneaking into the cellar was involved in JB's death. I also read that strangulations can happen on LADDER rungs. The "partially wrapped" presents with FAO Scwhartz wrapping paper seen in the crime scene photos in the wine cellar right by the blanket are very suspicious.

We're on the same page then, Steely. ITA.
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