The “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion”

[Steely]

These pictures are VERY graphic, so keep that in mind please.

http://zyberzoom.com/ComparisonPhotos.html

I also find it very interesting that John placed a scarf around JonBenet in her coffin. It wasn't a sentimental item, but a new one, he had recently purchased. Whom had he bought it for?

SunnieRN, I'm so sorry, I have seen this photo before. I do appreciate having the link handy though. Thanks for posting it! I should have specified one other one, besides this one. Yes, the one photo here is kind of similar but to me the one on JB is much brighter, significantly larger, especially in proportion to her size, and more clearly a triangular or cone-looking shape. I looked at a LOT of photos and I did find marks on some, but not many, of the victims but the ones I did find are more IRREGULAR and usually quite a bit smaller. I'm not sure they'd be described as "prominent." I did not see one as bright, big, or clearly PATTERNED as on JB.

If this PATTERNED mark is such a common mark on strangulation victims, why hasn't anyone found the technical term for it? If it is so common, why wouldn't the coroner have used that term and listed it under the evidence of his findings for strangulation? The coroner describes this mark as prominent, patterned ("roughly triangular"), parchment-like, and rust colored. I would believe the coroner used "abrasion" where he could have used "lesion" but I don't believe he didn't know a technical term for a common mark which is indicative of strangulation. I don't think that mark is as common as people seem to think.

While the coroner notes the prominent mark is a "roughly triangular" PATTERN he goes on to describe the"remainder of the abrasions and petechial hemorrhages of the skin above and below the anterior projection of the ligature furrow are NONPATTERNED..." He doesn't state the others are parchment-like like the PATTERNED mark. How would the ligature cause the surface to be patterned, "parchment-like", and "dried" on this triangular mark below the neck when the ligature furrow (which is patterned after the shape of the cord) isn't parchment-like and dried and the other neck marks aren't patterned, parchment-like, and dried?

The coroner states the triangular neck mark was a "prominent dried abrasion" during his first quick look at the body in the home. He describes the back marks (some call stun gun marks) "two dried rust colored to slightly purple abrasions."
The mark on the neck is dried, patterned and rust colored. The marks on the back are dried, patterned, and rust colored. Hmmmmmm:waitasec: They sound similar to me.

In addition, the coroner notes regarding the back marks that "no surrounding contusion identified." Was this lack of contusion (bruising) one of the things that led to the stun gun theory? (another was the injury looks to some like a burn) Stun guns essentially cause electrical burns but they don't generally cause bruising in surrounding tissues, do they? They wouldn't cause bruising like a blunt object rammed into the skin, right? Curling irons cause thermal injuries and can cause injury without a contusion (bruising of surrounding tissue.) Yes, a cold curling iron could be rammed into the skin but that would likely cause bruising of surrounding tissue. A hot curling iron could be rammed into the skin causing bruising and a burn but a hot curling iron would erode away (burn) the outer layer of tissues without needing to be physically compressed very hard into the skin. "Abrasion" is an eroding away by friction.

BTW, one cause of corneal abrasions is...curling irons. http://www.vanderbilthealth.com/williamson/healthtopics?topic=Corneal_Abrasion

Autopsy info from:
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf

I admit I could be wrong about the curling iron! I don't know if PR had a safety-tip free iron and, if she did, if they'd make these marks. But I'm curious...is it possible? Darn...I don't have a pig to test my theory!:crazy:

Just think... if the perpetrator of the injuries used a weapon or an object with a shape which could be forensically shown to have possibly made the PATTERNED injuries on JB and the perpetrator (and/or others) wanted to divert attention from the patterned injuries because it was incriminating then the garotte staging would fulfill two purposes: 1) take attention away from the triangular neck injury (and possible previous strangulation attempt) and 2) implicate a sexual predator. If it was RDI (and I'm still not 100% sure of that)...then, SNAP!, that was a brilliant move on their part, wasn't it? Because it appears, the coroner did focus his time and attention on the ligature strangulation at the expense of the patterned injuries. If he hadn't, he might have gotten tissue for histological examinations of those PATTERNED "unknown abrasions" and differential diagnoses of those injuries might have been made. Had that been done, LE could have been informed about the possible shapes and types of weapons/objects to look for in the R's home. (However, IF RDI, the weapon/object might have been gone by that time, of course. If IDI, the weapon might have been removed from the scene.) At any rate, I believe the coroner's failure to get tissue samples from the patterned injuries really hampered this case. I'm sure those that theorize a stun gun feel the same way.

 

[Steely]

Dang, Steely, are you gonna make me go looking at all those dead people all over again? (I hate this part of the job.)

What I said was that this type of mark/pattern can be found in numerous other photos of strangulation victims. I haven't seen many pictures that are as close up as the ones we now have available of JB that we can enhance the colors and try to figure out the subtleties of where the highest concentrations of blood are. So if you expect that, I'm sorry I'll have to disappoint. But what I can show you will be similar types of marks/patterns in the same area on either side of the neck in other victims. Give me some search time and I'll see what I can find.



That notation was part of the complete examination that Dr. Meyer did inside of ten minutes inside the house. Let me say that again: TEN MINUTES! -- from entering till leaving.

(clip)
[/INDENT]Later, in his "detailed account", the only description he gives is the title of this thread.Steely, don't let the word abrasion throw you off. It did me. Read again what I wrote in the opening post about what an abrasion is to a dermatologist. It's not based on my opinion, it's from the definitions I found online. I have no medical background whatsoever (unless you would consider my First Aid Merit Badge in Boy Scouts, but I don't usually put that on my resume'). All I can do is research the same as you. If you disagree, I can live with that (most people do).
.

OTG, you are totally awesome. You never disappoint, I just love your posts. You do so much research and present it exceptionally well. Please don't go looking at anymore autopsy photos on my account! I'm not lookin' at anymore, 'cuz it ain't pretty. I practically made myself physically ill, so I'm done. To be honest, I respect your theory but I agree, it's okay we disagree. I'm cool with it. We do agree the coroner could have spent a lot more time assessing the injuries, he could have given much more descriptive detail, and he might have used the term "abrasion" to mean something broader than what most people think when they hear that term. We might not be on the same page...but we might be on the same 1/2 page.:crazy:

 

[SunnieRN]

Steely, I am sorry I can no longer find the picture I know you are referring to. I had actually seen it on two sites, both have which were taken down.

I did find a page by her, that shows the same photo, but part of her photos are missing.

http://www.oocities.com/area51/nebula/9337/cord.html

If you look where this sentence is, there is an x above it. That is where the picture you are referring to was. Unfortunately none of the links work any longer. This must be a very recent change, as I saw the other picture recently.

 

[Toltec]

There was no skin or blood found under JonBenet's fingernails...

JonBenet was unconcious when the cord was placed around her neck. She was not struggling with the cord but could it be that Patsy's, John's or Burke's fingernails had JonBenet's skin in them?

Police did not check the Ramseys clothes or fingernails on the 26th...what a shame!

 

[Toltec]

I turned my laptop upside down...I can see it now. Part of the picture is obscured but you can see the shoulder "abrasion" and the check "abrasion." Thank you, I hadn't seen this before.

Some people think this might be cigar burns...but has anyone considered the marks coming from the top of an ornament? I know there were broken ornaments found in the wine cellar...

 

[UKGuy]

SunnieRN, I'm so sorry, I have seen this photo before. I do appreciate having the link handy though. Thanks for posting it! I should have specified one other one, besides this one. Yes, the one photo here is kind of similar but to me the one on JB is much brighter, significantly larger, especially in proportion to her size, and more clearly a triangular or cone-looking shape. I looked at a LOT of photos and I did find marks on some, but not many, of the victims but the ones I did find are more IRREGULAR and usually quite a bit smaller. I'm not sure they'd be described as "prominent." I did not see one as bright, big, or clearly PATTERNED as on JB.

If this PATTERNED mark is such a common mark on strangulation victims, why hasn't anyone found the technical term for it? If it is so common, why wouldn't the coroner have used that term and listed it under the evidence of his findings for strangulation? The coroner describes this mark as prominent, patterned ("roughly triangular"), parchment-like, and rust colored. I would believe the coroner used "abrasion" where he could have used "lesion" but I don't believe he didn't know a technical term for a common mark which is indicative of strangulation. I don't think that mark is as common as people seem to think.

While the coroner notes the prominent mark is a "roughly triangular" PATTERN he goes on to describe the"remainder of the abrasions and petechial hemorrhages of the skin above and below the anterior projection of the ligature furrow are NONPATTERNED..." He doesn't state the others are parchment-like like the PATTERNED mark. How would the ligature cause the surface to be patterned, "parchment-like", and "dried" on this triangular mark below the neck when the ligature furrow (which is patterned after the shape of the cord) isn't parchment-like and dried and the other neck marks aren't patterned, parchment-like, and dried?

The coroner states the triangular neck mark was a "prominent dried abrasion" during his first quick look at the body in the home. He describes the back marks (some call stun gun marks) "two dried rust colored to slightly purple abrasions."
The mark on the neck is dried, patterned and rust colored. The marks on the back are dried, patterned, and rust colored. Hmmmmmm:waitasec: They sound similar to me.

In addition, the coroner notes regarding the back marks that "no surrounding contusion identified." Was this lack of contusion (bruising) one of the things that led to the stun gun theory? (another was the injury looks to some like a burn) Stun guns essentially cause electrical burns but they don't generally cause bruising in surrounding tissues, do they? They wouldn't cause bruising like a blunt object rammed into the skin, right? Curling irons cause thermal injuries and can cause injury without a contusion (bruising of surrounding tissue.) Yes, a cold curling iron could be rammed into the skin but that would likely cause bruising of surrounding tissue. A hot curling iron could be rammed into the skin causing bruising and a burn but a hot curling iron would erode away (burn) the outer layer of tissues without needing to be physically compressed very hard into the skin. "Abrasion" is an eroding away by friction.

BTW, one cause of corneal abrasions is...curling irons. http://www.vanderbilthealth.com/williamson/healthtopics?topic=Corneal_Abrasion

Autopsy info from:
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf

I admit I could be wrong about the curling iron! I don't know if PR had a safety-tip free iron and, if she did, if they'd make these marks. But I'm curious...is it possible? Darn...I don't have a pig to test my theory!:crazy:

Just think... if the perpetrator of the injuries used a weapon or an object with a shape which could be forensically shown to have possibly made the PATTERNED injuries on JB and the perpetrator (and/or others) wanted to divert attention from the patterned injuries because it was incriminating then the garotte staging would fulfill two purposes: 1) take attention away from the triangular neck injury (and possible previous strangulation attempt) and 2) implicate a sexual predator. If it was RDI (and I'm still not 100% sure of that)...then, SNAP!, that was a brilliant move on their part, wasn't it? Because it appears, the coroner did focus his time and attention on the ligature strangulation at the expense of the patterned injuries. If he hadn't, he might have gotten tissue for histological examinations of those PATTERNED "unknown abrasions" and differential diagnoses of those injuries might have been made. Had that been done, LE could have been informed about the possible shapes and types of weapons/objects to look for in the R's home. (However, IF RDI, the weapon/object might have been gone by that time, of course. If IDI, the weapon might have been removed from the scene.) At any rate, I believe the coroner's failure to get tissue samples from the patterned injuries really hampered this case. I'm sure those that theorize a stun gun feel the same way.

Steely,
You seem to be arguing for a kind of staging, in crime-profiling this is termed precautionary force, and would be consistent with the wine-cellar as a staged crime-scene.

But can you distinguish between injuries that are deliberate and those that are technically described as environmental wound patterns. That is they arise neither in motivational terms from the victim or the offender. e.g. they arrive on JonBenet via her body being transported in bag which has leather protusions which, via gravity, cause the abrasions.

The abrasions found on JonBenet are a kind of blunt force trauma, their degree has not been included in the autopsy report. When I first saw them I assumed they were contusions.

So my first assumption would be that the abrasions arrived on JonBenet due to the method or manner in which she was transported to the wine-cellar?

Linked with this is restraint force e.g. was JonBenet tied and bound prior to her death? The abrasions may be the result of such behaviour.

Next I would consider if JonBenet had caused the abrasions during a defensive struggle with the offender.

Next I would assume the offender deliberately inflicted those abrasions prior to death?

Lastly I would consider were the abrasions inflicted postmortem? This is termed experimental force e.g. someone acting out some fantasy behaviour on JonBenet's body.


So assuming its correct to say that JonBenet was sexually assaulted prior to her death, e.g. this is not staged, and her body has abrasions consistent with restraint force then its possible someone has enacted out some kind of bondage fantasy on JonBenet?


.

 

[Agatha_C]

I found this great page belonging to a very dedicated JBR poster named Ruthee, may she rest in peace. Acandyrose, maintains the page in her honor. I thought I would share what I found there as well as the link. If you havent been to this page before, than you really need to visit it.....

Ruthee believed that the Potholder loomwas far more important than it was given credit for and did some experiments and Ive posted the photos she took, you'll need to read the page to see what she had to say.

This is the loom and its exactly what they looked like then and now. Although Im sure this isnt the exact one that JBR owned, it looks more like a rag mag photo.. Where did it go and why isnt it in evidence?

The black point and marks are pen used to show the outcome of the experiment. http://ruthees_library.tripod.com/stungun.html

 

[Agatha_C]

I forgot these...

http://ruthees_library.tripod.com/stungun.html

 

[Agatha_C]

Its also quite possible that a Tiara made those marks as well as a trophy. Could be the very ones that were laying on the floor and LE questioned Patsy about, right before she saw the red turtleneck and began to cry.

 

[Flatlander]

Seems like those are train track marks on her arm.
The bruising on her neck was from somebody grabbing the skin and twisting it. Probably the red turtleneck found on the bathroom counter.
Definitely a cover-up in the house!

 

[otg]

Seems like those are train track marks on her arm.
The bruising on her neck was from somebody grabbing the skin and twisting it. Probably the red turtleneck found on the bathroom counter.
Definitely a cover-up in the house!

I don't at all buy the theory that an article of clothing was twisted on JonBenet's neck, and that this is what caused the injury. That theory was started by Dr. Spitz in trying to account for the shape of the mark. His original theory was that as the collar was twisted to strangle her, the person's knuckles rubbed that area of her neck causing the mark.

I haven't seen you here in quite some time, Flatlander, so maybe you don't realize what an idiot Spitz is. (Just take a look at his "work" on the Casey Anthony trial for a good example.)

Please go back and read the beginning of this thread, and also read [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5973086#post5973086"]this post[/ame], which shows the injury with the hue of the picture adjusted so you can see the intensity of the red area. I believe this shows how the strangulation (the first one at the blanched line) ruptured blood vessels in the center of the triangular area where the blood then pooled into an area restricted by the boundaries of the carotid triangle. The blood under the surface of the skin is what caused the parchment-like appearance.

 

[Anti-K]

The “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion”

This thread starts with an explanation for the triangular shape of the abrasion on the left side of the victim’s neck and presumably formed by a ruptured blood vessel (or similar event) caused by the strangulation. This explanation involves the carotid triangle. I am going to offer an alternative explanation.

What we have is a volume of fluid (blood) under pressure being expelled from a very small opening. Think of a spray bottle, your window cleaner. Squeeze the trigger and the spray comes out cone shaped, which would appear triangular if seen in a one dimensional space.

The tightening of the ligature should have been a fairly fast event (see my video again: http://tinyurl.com/mg4vvhr). Snap! Just like that, and the damage is done. In the process a blood vessel is burst and blood is forced out in a similar fashion as described above. Also, consider that the ligature ruptures, but also acts as a sort of tourniquet: snap! Burst, sudden expulsion of blood and rapid closure.

See how the abrasion is darker farther away from the apex? OTG has shown this rather well in a post further back. I suggest that this darker area is simply blood that is closer to the surface of the skin than the ruptured vessel from which it originated.

An experiment: hold your arm straight out in front of you and then bend at the elbow so that it is across your chest. Make sure your hand is pointing straight out and in line with your arm (parallel to the floor). Now, grab your spray bottle and hold it beneath your hand and pointed at your wrist. Make sure that the nozzle is parallel to the ground and not pointing up or down. Spray. See? Your hand stays dry, but your wrist gets wet. It’s because the fluid is sprayed out in a cone shape.

Now, think about that burst vessel and a cone-shape expulsion of blood from a sudden open/close rupture as caused by the rapid tightening of the ligature. Snap!

If things happen as I am suggesting, than what sort of pattern should we see? Exactly what we do see. A triangular shaped abrasion that originates at the ligature line, and that darkens and widens the farther away we get from that line.

Of course, I’m not saying that things happened exactly as I described, and spraying something into empty space is not at all like the expulsion of blood through tissue. The spray bottle metaphor is only meant to be a sort of visual aid allowing me to better describe a pattern that could result from an under pressure volume of fluid (blood) being rapidly expelled (and, shut off) from a very small opening (ruptured vessel).

I don’t know if this is what happened, and I’m not saying that this is a superior to the carotid triangle explanation; it is just offered as a plausible and alternative explanation.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I took the time to read all the posts on this thread before writing anything new. I noticed some discussion on whether the abrasion is more properly described as triangular or cone-shaped. Since the abrasion is one dimensional (we see it “flat” on the skin as we would if drawn on paper), and a cone is a three dimensional object, I will be referring (as did Meyer) to the abrasion as triangular or triangle-shaped.

It has been said by at least one poster that “it is less likely that this [triangular shaped abrasion] would occur below the ligature -- like the petechial hemorrhaging in the area of the ligature, it is more likely above the ligature.” (see: http://tinyurl.com/k9zue3e)

It has been said by some that this sort of abrasion commonly appears in cases of ligature strangulation. I don’t know if that is true, but I do know that the incidences of ligature strangulation are not that common to begin with. So, it’ not as easy as one might think to find actual photographs of this phenomenon. However, I have managed to find a couple examples and by request I could upload them somewhere and kink to them. Of course, there is always this one which I think most everyone has seen by now, originally from Ruthee’s site and linked to by someone else in an earlier post. Yes, it is graphic – BE WARNED! http://tinyurl.com/lalnnes

What we see in this photograph, and in others, is an abrasion below the ligature. This contradicts the claim of those who say that such abrasions are more likely to appear above the ligature.

Also, what we see in these photographs (google image search if you’re not bothered by such images and prepared to do some scrolling) is that the abrasion is narrowest where it meets the ligature and it spreads out from there, just as we see in the case of Jonbenet.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

The abrasion with its triangular shape is in essence an arrow pointing in the direction of its creation: the ligature embedded around the victim’s neck. The abrasion also tell us something about the force with which the ligature was tightened while the fact of death was probably more a function of duration: this ligature was tightened and it remained tight until it was removed from the victim hours after death.

Could there have been an initial strangulation or attempt to asphyxiate; one that occurred somewhere lower on the neck? Sure; why not? There are additional injuries and such that could be explained in this way. Or, all injuries and markings could have been created by a single act, the ligature starting at one point on the neck and being rapidly and forcefully “scraped” up the neck and into its final embedded position where it was tightened to extreme. I don’t know which position the evidence favors.

I know there are some – a few, not many – who seem to think that the ligature is embedded because of post mortem swelling or post mortem bloat.

One version has it that the asphyxiation was staged and the ligature simply tied around the victim’s neck as snug as can be and the other version has it that, although the victim was actually strangled, this happened with the ligature initially at a lower location, then, the ligature, after death, somehow shifts position upwards on the neck. In both scenarios, post-mortem swelling and/or bloat become necessary explanations for the embedded ligature.

However, in this case, there is no bloat, and there is no meaningful (if any) post-mortem swelling. So, these explanations and those versions which appeal to it should be abandoned. The evidence is what the evidence is.

NOTE: while it remains true that in some cases post-mortem swelling can serve to pronounce the appearance of an embedded ligature, this post-mortem swelling occurs around the area of injury (the already tightened and embedded ligature) and is not likely to occur around a ligature that is simply snug (no injury) or, loose enough upon the neck that it can somehow shift, after death, from a lower position to a higher one. Regardless, no such post-mortem swelling has been shown to exist.
...

AK

 

[otg]

The “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion”

This thread starts with an explanation for the triangular shape of the abrasion on the left side of the victim’s neck and presumably formed by a ruptured blood vessel (or similar event) caused by the strangulation. This explanation involves the carotid triangle. I am going to offer an alternative explanation.

What we have is a volume of fluid (blood) under pressure being expelled from a very small opening. Think of a spray bottle, your window cleaner. Squeeze the trigger and the spray comes out cone shaped, which would appear triangular if seen in a one dimensional space.

The tightening of the ligature should have been a fairly fast event (see my video again: http://tinyurl.com/mg4vvhr). Snap! Just like that, and the damage is done. In the process a blood vessel is burst and blood is forced out in a similar fashion as described above. Also, consider that the ligature ruptures, but also acts as a sort of tourniquet: snap! Burst, sudden expulsion of blood and rapid closure.

See how the abrasion is darker farther away from the apex? OTG has shown this rather well in a post further back. I suggest that this darker area is simply blood that is closer to the surface of the skin than the ruptured vessel from which it originated.

An experiment: hold your arm straight out in front of you and then bend at the elbow so that it is across your chest. Make sure your hand is pointing straight out and in line with your arm (parallel to the floor). Now, grab your spray bottle and hold it beneath your hand and pointed at your wrist. Make sure that the nozzle is parallel to the ground and not pointing up or down. Spray. See? Your hand stays dry, but your wrist gets wet. It’s because the fluid is sprayed out in a cone shape.

Now, think about that burst vessel and a cone-shape expulsion of blood from a sudden open/close rupture as caused by the rapid tightening of the ligature. Snap!

If things happen as I am suggesting, than what sort of pattern should we see? Exactly what we do see. A triangular shaped abrasion that originates at the ligature line, and that darkens and widens the farther away we get from that line.

Of course, I’m not saying that things happened exactly as I described, and spraying something into empty space is not at all like the expulsion of blood through tissue. The spray bottle metaphor is only meant to be a sort of visual aid allowing me to better describe a pattern that could result from an under pressure volume of fluid (blood) being rapidly expelled (and, shut off) from a very small opening (ruptured vessel).

I don’t know if this is what happened, and I’m not saying that this is a superior to the carotid triangle explanation; it is just offered as a plausible and alternative explanation.
...

AK

OK, AK. I understand the analogy you’re trying to make with an aerosol spray, but I don’t see it as a better explanation for the triangular pattern.

 

[Anti-K]

Nor am I; to quote myself (post 172, above) BBM:

I’m not saying that this is a superior to the carotid triangle explanation; it is just offered as a plausible and alternative explanation.
...

AK

 

[otg]

I took the time to read all the posts on this thread before writing anything new. I noticed some discussion on whether the abrasion is more properly described as triangular or cone-shaped. Since the abrasion is one dimensional (we see it “flat” on the skin as we would if drawn on paper), and a cone is a three dimensional object, I will be referring (as did Meyer) to the abrasion as triangular or triangle-shaped.

Actually, if you’re going to go all technical on us, the visible portion of the abrasion is two-dimensional -- not one. I used the “cone shaped” term parenthetically to describe the round base of the triangle:

If you look at the photos showing this area, you see that at what Dr. Meyer refers to as the apex of the triangular area (actually it is more cone shaped because it is rounded at the base), the darkness of the discoloration begins to fade away and is not as pronounced as it is in the center of the rounded area (or the base of the triangle), and it ends at the ligature furrow.

(IOW, “cone shaped” is not the same as a “cone”.)

It has been said by at least one poster that “it is less likely that this [triangular shaped abrasion] would occur below the ligature -- like the petechial hemorrhaging in the area of the ligature, it is more likely above the ligature.” (see: http://tinyurl.com/k9zue3e)

I’ll agree with you on this one, AK. After thinking a little more (and reading some more) about the actual reasons for that blood, it’s probably no more likely on either side of the ligature as much as it is simply because of where the blood vessel(s) burst. Unlike the petechiae, it is not necessarily because of the differential pressure on either side of the ligature, but rather because of the physical stresses exerted on the vessels. If Dr. Meyer had dissected the blood vessels in the neck as he should have, he might have found the origin. The following is from this article (bbm):

In some cases (5 to 10%), the intima of the carotid arteries show transverse splits with extravasation of blood in their wall due to stretching and crushing. Several horizontal intimal tears scattered along the carotid arteries at different levels are sometimes found in hanging associated with a long drop. To demonstrate these tears, the carotid arteries should be opened to the level of mandible. The vertebral arteries show rupture, intimal tears, and subintimal haemorrhages in some cases.
​

A term for these tears/splits in the blood vessels is Amusset’s sign, named after the 19th century, French surgeon Jean Zuléma Amussat:

Amussat's sign is typically a transverse laceration of the intimal layer of carotid arteries described in cases of hanging. Subtotal laceration of the carotid artery is not strictly specific for hanging and can be also caused by blunt neck trauma, extreme overstretching, or whiplash-injuries. In a prospective autopsy study of 178 cases of hanging, Amussat's sign was found in 29 cases (a relative frequency of 16.1%). A statistically significant association between the occurrence of tears in the intimal layer of carotid arteries and the victims' age was discovered in the cases studied (the frequency increased with age; p<0.05). The occurrence of Amussat's sign was independent of gender, weight, completeness of the victim's body suspension, and position of the ligature knot on the neck. The study demonstrates the fact that the most probable cause of Amussat's sign is a combination of direct compression of the artery by the rope and indirect stretching because of the gravitational drag produced by the weight of the body.

​

It has been said by some that this sort of abrasion commonly appears in cases of ligature strangulation. I don’t know if that is true, but I do know that the incidences of ligature strangulation are not that common to begin with. So, it’ not as easy as one might think to find actual photographs of this phenomenon. However, I have managed to find a couple examples and by request I could upload them somewhere and kink to them. Of course, there is always this one which I think most everyone has seen by now, originally from Ruthee’s site and linked to by someone else in an earlier post. Yes, it is graphic – BE WARNED! http://tinyurl.com/lalnnes

Oh, c’mon, AK. No one is going to admit that they’d want to see such gruesome photos. But since I’ve already demonstrated my proclivity for the gruesome by my familiarity with it, I’ll request the link for myself, and no one else will have to admit they want to see it too. (Just please don’t post the photos here -- just the link.)

What we see in this photograph, and in others, is an abrasion below the ligature. This contradicts the claim of those who say that such abrasions are more likely to appear above the ligature.

As I said, I agree with you. But I still maintain that the petechial hemorrhaging is more likely above the ligature.

Also, what we see in these photographs (google image search if you’re not bothered by such images and prepared to do some scrolling) is that the abrasion is narrowest where it meets the ligature and it spreads out from there, just as we see in the case of Jonbenet.

And the reason for that (IMO still) is because of the limitations imposed by the musculature that defines the boundaries of the carotid triangle.

 

[otg]

The abrasion with its triangular shape is in essence an arrow pointing in the direction of its creation: the ligature embedded around the victim’s neck. The abrasion also tell us something about the force with which the ligature was tightened while the fact of death was probably more a function of duration: this ligature was tightened and it remained tight until it was removed from the victim hours after death.

Could there have been an initial strangulation or attempt to asphyxiate; one that occurred somewhere lower on the neck? Sure; why not? There are additional injuries and such that could be explained in this way. Or, all injuries and markings could have been created by a single act, the ligature starting at one point on the neck and being rapidly and forcefully “scraped” up the neck and into its final embedded position where it was tightened to extreme. I don’t know which position the evidence favors.

I know there are some – a few, not many – who seem to think that the ligature is embedded because of post mortem swelling or post mortem bloat.

One version has it that the asphyxiation was staged and the ligature simply tied around the victim’s neck as snug as can be and the other version has it that, although the victim was actually strangled, this happened with the ligature initially at a lower location, then, the ligature, after death, somehow shifts position upwards on the neck. In both scenarios, post-mortem swelling and/or bloat become necessary explanations for the embedded ligature.

However, in this case, there is no bloat, and there is no meaningful (if any) post-mortem swelling. So, these explanations and those versions which appeal to it should be abandoned. The evidence is what the evidence is.

NOTE: while it remains true that in some cases post-mortem swelling can serve to pronounce the appearance of an embedded ligature, this post-mortem swelling occurs around the area of injury (the already tightened and embedded ligature) and is not likely to occur around a ligature that is simply snug (no injury) or, loose enough upon the neck that it can somehow shift, after death, from a lower position to a higher one. Regardless, no such post-mortem swelling has been shown to exist.
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AK

You are completely misunderstanding what I’ve stated, AK. But I’ll just leave it there.

Nor am I; to quote myself (post 172, above) BBM:

I’m not saying that this is a superior to the carotid triangle explanation; it is just offered as a plausible and alternative explanation.
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AK

Yes, I understood that.

And BTW, I do appreciate your posts. I never ignore them or get offended. I just don't get to respond as quickly (or as often) as I would like. Even if we disagree on certain points, AK, we should be able to have a good discussion -- and I feel we have.

 

[Anti-K]

Actually, if you’re going to go all technical on us, the visible portion of the abrasion is two-dimensional -- not one. I used the “cone shaped” term parenthetically to describe the round base of the triangle:




(IOW, “cone shaped” is not the same as a “cone”.)



I’ll agree with you on this one, AK. After thinking a little more (and reading some more) about the actual reasons for that blood, it’s probably no more likely on either side of the ligature as much as it is simply because of where the blood vessel(s) burst. Unlike the petechiae, it is not necessarily because of the differential pressure on either side of the ligature, but rather because of the physical stresses exerted on the vessels. If Dr. Meyer had dissected the blood vessels in the neck as he should have, he might have found the origin. The following is from this article (bbm):

In some cases (5 to 10%), the intima of the carotid arteries show transverse splits with extravasation of blood in their wall due to stretching and crushing. Several horizontal intimal tears scattered along the carotid arteries at different levels are sometimes found in hanging associated with a long drop. To demonstrate these tears, the carotid arteries should be opened to the level of mandible. The vertebral arteries show rupture, intimal tears, and subintimal haemorrhages in some cases.
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A term for these tears/splits in the blood vessels is Amusset’s sign, named after the 19th century, French surgeon Jean Zuléma Amussat:

Amussat's sign is typically a transverse laceration of the intimal layer of carotid arteries described in cases of hanging. Subtotal laceration of the carotid artery is not strictly specific for hanging and can be also caused by blunt neck trauma, extreme overstretching, or whiplash-injuries. In a prospective autopsy study of 178 cases of hanging, Amussat's sign was found in 29 cases (a relative frequency of 16.1%). A statistically significant association between the occurrence of tears in the intimal layer of carotid arteries and the victims' age was discovered in the cases studied (the frequency increased with age; p<0.05). The occurrence of Amussat's sign was independent of gender, weight, completeness of the victim's body suspension, and position of the ligature knot on the neck. The study demonstrates the fact that the most probable cause of Amussat's sign is a combination of direct compression of the artery by the rope and indirect stretching because of the gravitational drag produced by the weight of the body.

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Oh, c’mon, AK. No one is going to admit that they’d want to see such gruesome photos. But since I’ve already demonstrated my proclivity for the gruesome by my familiarity with it, I’ll request the link for myself, and no one else will have to admit they want to see it too. (Just please don’t post the photos here -- just the link.)


As I said, I agree with you. But I still maintain that the petechial hemorrhaging is more likely above the ligature.


And the reason for that (IMO still) is because of the limitations imposed by the musculature that defines the boundaries of the carotid triangle.

Yes, it is two dimensional. My mistake. I should have said two dimensional represented in one dimension (which is what I was getting at when I wrote “we see it ‘flat’ on the skin as we would if drawn on paper”). Thanks for pointing out this error.

Incidentally, I have no real objection to the use of “cone-shaped” as a descriptor, but still prefer to use (and, agree with) the AR description, although if we want to get really picky, the AR describes the abrasion as “roughly triangular shaped.” I’m just going with triangular shaped. Regardless of how we describe it, I think we both and everyone else knows to what we are referring!

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I would admit to wanting to see gruesome photos. So, would you it seems. So, why not others? Anyway, I sent you a pm on this. Or, will be after I post this. You can reply to it here if you wish. In fact, that might be better.

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Yes, I agree the petechia above the ligature (as we see). But, the triangular shaped abrasion? I’m only seeing them below, or in one case – above and below.

I’ve given this carotid triangle “theory” of yours a bit more thought, and I’m less convinced now than I was before. However, let’s say that you’re right. The rupture still occurred where the abrasion meets the ligature and spread outwards and downwards from there (as I described in post 172) and ends up in a triangular pattern in part, influenced by the carotid triangle.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

You are completely misunderstanding what I’ve stated, AK. But I’ll just leave it there.



Yes, I understood that.

And BTW, I do appreciate your posts. I never ignore them or get offended. I just don't get to respond as quickly (or as often) as I would like. Even if we disagree on certain points, AK, we should be able to have a good discussion -- and I feel we have.

Nothing that I wrote here was meant as descriptive or critical of what you have specifically proposed.

However, the second of the two versions I note wherein “the ligature is embedded because of post mortem swelling or post mortem bloat” is virtually what you describe:

Me: although the victim was actually strangled, this happened with the ligature initially at a lower location, then, the ligature, after death, somehow shifts position upwards on the neck.

You:

Sorry if I’ve not made it clear enough, AK. I think she died from strangulation with the same ligature found on her neck where the first (IMO) white line is found. This caused her death (along with cerebral trauma from the head blow). Where we see the furrow is where I believe the ligature slipped upwards after she was already dead.

So, where in that is the misunderstanding?

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No worries. I’m very rarely, almost never offended by anything that happens online in forum discussions. I don’t mind being ridiculed, I expect to be misinterpreted (often), I’m okay with being “told off,” I’m alright with being stereotyped and I can handle being ignored. No one is ever any obligation to respond to anything that I might say. But, when they do take the time to respond, I appreciate that.
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AK