The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[vulture]

I know nowadays they have sex Ed classes in grade school. But in 1996, there was no internet to learn from.

There was some. I got online in July of 1995, and I did a search out of curiosity to see if there was really all this like everybody said. No I didn't look at any of the links that came up (I searched for "sex with horses") but there was plenty to choose from! That was my one and only search. Now how easy it would have been for a 9 year old to get online then I don't know. I was one of the first people I knew to have internet access.

 

[fedfan4life]

My dust ruffles are always disturbed. My children, on the other hand, are not.

I nominate this for POST OF THE DAY. Very, very clever.

 

[ThinkHard]

BBM ~ Could it be that the state of the house was cause endangerment? I mean, we only saw parts of the house and it is messy, borderline hoarder, IMO. Maybe with knives and other weapon-like objects is why the GJ indicted them? Didn't the GJ tour the R home?

Who knows. I'd think to use a messy house as grounds for endangerment charges on a murder case though, you'd have to have evidence the mess was directly related to the cause of death.

 

[Tortoise]

Something that strikes me as very very odd is Patsy's reaction to the 'news' (in the 1998 interview) that JB had had prior vaginal intrusion.

quote -

[FONT=&quot]25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]0581[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2 intrusion on JonBenet?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 4 Prior to the night she was killed?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 5 TOM HANEY: Correct.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 been violated like that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.

[/FONT]

end quote (but the questions and answers continue in the same vein for some while - see here for full transcript http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm )

What I find unbelievable about it is what she doesn't say and what happens after that exchange.

She asks for clarification to see where it says that.

She doesn't say anything to help in the way of examining her memories, or having a personal need to find out when this could have occurred, who it could have been, thinking back to see if JB had behaved strangely or said anything after being in someone's company, thinking and thinking again how she could not have known or noticed, the kinds of questions that would drive you mad if you were given this news, wanting to know who it could have been. Just saying you are shocked and surprised is like a way of just answering the questions so you can move on to the next one, get the questioning over with. It's massive to be told your 6 yr old daughter had been abused. You would at least not just say I want to see who said it and where it says that - as a mother and the most important figure in your child's life and her protector, you would have a need to know who did it and how it could have been possible. And an anger, possibly failure, and a sense of responsibility to get to the bottom of it. I can't stress how important this relationship is with a kindergarten age child - it's instinctive like a lioness with her cubs. Unless you already knew.


she goes on and on in the same vein -

[FONT=&quot]0585[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, sir. I have[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2 answered every question you or anyone else has[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 3 asked me to the best of my ability.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 4 TOM HANEY: Would that answer or[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 5 would that statement, that information, would[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 6 that lead you in any particular direction?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 7 Would you think about a particular person being[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 8 involved or doing something, with JonBenet?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't -- I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 don't -- I just am shocked is all I can say. I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 don't -- I don't know what I think. You know, I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 just want to see where it says that.[/FONT]


And then see what happens - She moves on to the next topic. Lets it go, just like that. Phew, got through that without too much sweat.. I'm not looking back if you're not.

I don't think you can blame it on the questioner - something like that would wipe me off my feet. Yes we're all different and react differently, but there was no curiosity or attempt by Patsy to help police with that. She has come through the questions is all she's done. I think a mother does more.

 

[CoolJ]

Something that strikes me as very very odd is Patsy's reaction to the 'news' (in the 1998 interview) that JB had had prior vaginal intrusion.

quote -

[FONT="]25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are[/FONT]
[FONT="]0581[/FONT]
[FONT="] 1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal[/FONT]
[FONT="] 2 intrusion on JonBenet?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 4 Prior to the night she was killed?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 5 TOM HANEY: Correct.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 been violated like that?[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.

[/FONT]

end quote (but the questions and answers continue in the same vein for some while - see here for full transcript http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm )

What I find unbelievable about it is what she doesn't say and what happens after that exchange.

She asks for clarification to see where it says that.

She doesn't say anything to help in the way of examining her memories, or having a personal need to find out when this could have occurred, who it could have been, thinking back to see if JB had behaved strangely or said anything after being in someone's company, thinking and thinking again how she could not have known or noticed, the kinds of questions that would drive you mad if you were given this news, wanting to know who it could have been. Just saying you are shocked and surprised is like a way of just answering the questions so you can move on to the next one, get the questioning over with. It's massive to be told your 6 yr old daughter had been abused. You would at least not just say I want to see who said it and where it says that - as a mother and the most important figure in your child's life and her protector, you would have a need to know who did it and how it could have been possible. And an anger, possibly failure, and a sense of responsibility to get to the bottom of it. I can't stress how important this relationship is with a kindergarten age child - it's instinctive like a lioness with her cubs. Unless you already knew.


she goes on and on in the same vein -

[FONT="]0585[/FONT]
[FONT="] 1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, sir. I have[/FONT]
[FONT="] 2 answered every question you or anyone else has[/FONT]
[FONT="] 3 asked me to the best of my ability.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 4 TOM HANEY: Would that answer or[/FONT]
[FONT="] 5 would that statement, that information, would[/FONT]
[FONT="] 6 that lead you in any particular direction?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 7 Would you think about a particular person being[/FONT]
[FONT="] 8 involved or doing something, with JonBenet?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't -- I[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 don't -- I just am shocked is all I can say. I[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 don't -- I don't know what I think. You know, I[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 just want to see where it says that.[/FONT]


And then see what happens - She moves on to the next topic. Lets it go, just like that. Phew, got through that without too much sweat.. I'm not looking back if you're not.

I don't think you can blame it on the questioner - something like that would wipe me off my feet. Yes we're all different and react differently, but there was no curiosity or attempt by Patsy to help police with that. She has come through the questions is all she's done. I think a mother does more.

Yes, there is no doubt she knew. There is no doubt JR and PR were deceptive right from the beginning. But that in no way rules out an "Intruder" (terrible term IMO as it completely diverts attention away from a myriad of other possible perps and scenarios)

 

[otg]

Since it came up earlier in this thread about JonBenet's doctor visits, some may not have seen this. It is a list of doctor visits alleged to have been given to Det. Jane Harmer from Beuf's office. It's the reason the Ramseys sometimes claimed they had given Beuf permission to "share" his records on JonBenet. But all it amounts to is a list of visits and phone calls. Notably absent though are the three calls that were made within 30 minutes of one another on the evening of December 17(?) that he didn't disclose and Patsy couldn't remember the reason for when questioned about it.

8/6/90: JBR born.

12/6/91: First visit with Beuf. Treated for fever, cough, and wheezing.

Over next 10 months, she had the usual colds and coughs of a toddler.

1/93: Diagnosed with ear infection (her first). Amoxicillin prescribed.

By age 2 1/2, she had a history of coughs accompanied by low grade fever.

3/93: First serious illness, fever 102, difficulty breathing. Coughed up yellow mucus and looked droopey.

7/93: (Patsy diagnosed with cancer; JBR under Nedra's care). Regressed in toilet training and eating habits.

8/31/93: Responding to Beuf's questions, Patsy says JBR doesn't have any phobias and no aspect of JBR's sexual education needed to be discussed.

9/6/93: Buttocks and vaginal area chafed red from diarrhea.

11/93: Cough and stuffed nose. Sleeping poorly, grouchy from fatigue, bad breath. Chronic sinusitis.

12/31/93: Still drinking from bottle; parents having trouble weaning her.

1/94: Bad breath, cough and congestion.

2/4/94: Nedra suggests Fifth Disease. (Childhood viral illness, often accompanied by rash. Fifth in line of common childhood diseases, i.e., chickenpox, measles). No medication prescribed.

4/94: Breath still bad, runny nose, little appetite, slept poorly, bladder infection and vaginal discharge. Diagnosed with vaginitis. Amoxicillin prescribed and warned against bubble baths.

4/94: (3 weeks later) Still coughing, stuffy nose, congestion. Ear hurt, cranky. Diagnosed with allergic rhinitis, Benedryl prescribed.

4/94: (1 week later). Still coughing, Suprax prescribed.

10/5/94: Came in for checkup, doctor notices scar on left cheek. She'd been hit accidentally by a golf club when the family was in Charlevoix. A week after the accident, a plastic surgeon was consulted. No injury to cheekbone. Beuf is told (at this visit) that she's getting along with brothers and older sister. Wearing pullups at night because she's wetting bed. Patsy completes developmental questionnaire, and says there are no aspects of JonBenet's behavior or sex education she needed to discuss, and also notes JBR has no fears or phobias.

11/1/94: Had diarrhea five times and was lethargic. One bowel movement appeared bloody.

11/4/94: Badly congested, deep cough, bad breath. Diarrhea gone.

1/1/95: Chickenpox. Rash even appears in vaginal area. Recommended Avino, Benadryl and Lanocaine.

1/31/95: Still has bad cough and not sleeping well. Robitussin not helping.

Mid-Feb/95: Cough. Temp 99.3.

3/95: Complained of stomachache but sleeping well.

4/95: JR calls in, says JBR has another cough, but he doesn't think daughter needs to be examined.

5/8/95: JBR falls in Alfalfa's food market, lands on nose, not broken.

12/95: Trips and hits head above left eye. Stuffy nose, bad breath, coughing.

3/96: Coughing a lot.

5/96: Bent nail back on fourth finger, left hand, in another fall. Swollen and painful, but no bruising. Ibuprofen recommended.

8/27/96: Patsy reports JBR's a good sleeper, wasn't hard to get to bed, and was easily awakened in the morning. Not interested in opposit sex, behaved modestly in public, and didn't engage in sex play with her friends. She was, however, asking about sex roles and reproduction. She was not rude or afraid of either parent. Didn't seem to be bossy with brother, didn't react with trantrums, and was active. Loved fruit and some vegetables. Patsy said she was delightful and doing very well. Burke had his annual checkup same day.

9/96: Cough back, Robitussin recommended.

10/96: Stuffy nose, bad breath. Diagnosed with allergic rhinitis.

11/12/96: Runny nose and cold sore, sneezing.

12/3/96: Sees eye doctor.

12/96: Misses pageant due to illness.
​

[Note: In the above list, it seems like (my speculation here) that the specific dates are for actual office visits, and the approximate dates (mo/yr only) are phone consultations or simple notations.] Notice in this list that it notes what was prescribed, what over-the-counter medications were recommended, and even in one case (2/4/94) he mentions “No medication prescribed.”

In a Diane Sawyer interview, Beuf also listed the following:

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) We asked him to specifically review all notes that might pertain. He agreed, citing the frenzy of uninformed speculation. Be warned, these are a doctor's clinical notes about a young patient.

September 1993 -- a call about vaginal redness, possibly associated with recent diarrhea.

April 1994 -- a visit about a problem perhaps related to the use of bubble bath, which can be an irritant.

October 1994 -- a routine physical. No problems noted, though some indication of occasional bedwetting. Dr. Beuf says 20 percent to 25 percent of children that age wet the bed.

March 1995 -- abdominal pain and fever. Tests and exam showed no problem.

August 1996 -- another routine physical with a vaginal exam. The doctor said everything checked out as normal.
​

But later from the phone interview Sawyer states the following:

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) And some other notes. Dr. Beuf says he last saw JonBenet Ramsey in November 1996, and that was a checkup for a sinus infection.
​

This November 1996 “checkup for a sinus infection” would coincide with the 11/12/96 date from the earlier transcription where no mention is made of any prescribed or recommended medications. Neither does he mention to Sawyer that he had prescribed any medications. Symptoms listed for 11/12/96 are, “Runny nose and cold sore, sneezing.”

The last time Beuf could have possibly seen any signs of molestation is 8/27/1996, when he saw her for a regular physical. His notes didn't mention it, but he told Sawyer that it included a "vaginal exam." The panel of child sex abuse experts who looked at the evidence collected by the ME could not determine the number of times she had been molested, or the amount of time that had lapsed since the last occurrence. It could very well have begun escalating (and IMO did) after the August visit. Any longer than that and I think there would have been much more evident chronic trauma.

 

[Sunshine4Me]

The real question I am wondering about is where did BR learn about sex? I know nowadays they have sex Ed classes in grade school. But in 1996, there was no internet to learn from. I doubt he figured it out from playing doctor with JBR. Someone had to show him. Wonder who that was?

There was Internet in 1996 for sure. Our schools had quite a time with it, some things would slip through their filters. There was also sex ed in elementary school but, I think it depended on your city and state. And it was optional, your parents could opt you out.

Sent from my XT830C using Tapatalk

 

[Heymom]

Something that strikes me as very very odd is Patsy's reaction to the 'news' (in the 1998 interview) that JB had had prior vaginal intrusion.

<snipped by me>

She doesn't say anything to help in the way of examining her memories, or having a personal need to find out when this could have occurred, who it could have been, thinking back to see if JB had behaved strangely or said anything after being in someone's company, thinking and thinking again how she could not have known or noticed, the kinds of questions that would drive you mad if you were given this news, wanting to know who it could have been. Just saying you are shocked and surprised is like a way of just answering the questions so you can move on to the next one, get the questioning over with. It's massive to be told your 6 yr old daughter had been abused. You would at least not just say I want to see who said it and where it says that - as a mother and the most important figure in your child's life and her protector, you would have a need to know who did it and how it could have been possible. And an anger, possibly failure, and a sense of responsibility to get to the bottom of it. I can't stress how important this relationship is with a kindergarten age child - it's instinctive like a lioness with her cubs. Unless you already knew.


she goes on and on in the same vein -

[FONT="]0585[/FONT]
[FONT="] 1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, sir. I have[/FONT]
[FONT="] 2 answered every question you or anyone else has[/FONT]
[FONT="] 3 asked me to the best of my ability.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 4 TOM HANEY: Would that answer or[/FONT]
[FONT="] 5 would that statement, that information, would[/FONT]
[FONT="] 6 that lead you in any particular direction?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 7 Would you think about a particular person being[/FONT]
[FONT="] 8 involved or doing something, with JonBenet?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't -- I[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 don't -- I just am shocked is all I can say. I[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 don't -- I don't know what I think. You know, I[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 just want to see where it says that.[/FONT]


And then see what happens - She moves on to the next topic. Lets it go, just like that. Phew, got through that without too much sweat.. I'm not looking back if you're not.

I don't think you can blame it on the questioner - something like that would wipe me off my feet. Yes we're all different and react differently, but there was no curiosity or attempt by Patsy to help police with that. She has come through the questions is all she's done. I think a mother does more.

I think we can all, as parents, put ourselves in Patsy's shoes and say that without a doubt, had we been told, out of the blue, that our murdered 6 year old child had been sexually abused, it would throw us into a tailspin of shock and horror. The interview would have been impossible to continue, for I would have been grieving and in shock and in need of therapy at that point. But not Patsy. Yes, she must have known and have come to terms with it before that interview. If she knew John had been diddling JonBenet, does anyone here truly believe she would have stuck with him through thick and thin? Maybe she tried to tell him something was going on with Burke and he refused to believe her and thus the subtle digs at him in the ransom letter? "Use that good southern common sense of yours John!" "Don't try to grow a brain!" etc.

But her response to hearing that her daughter had been sexually abused is not normal in any way.

 

[Kay0315]

S

Something that strikes me as very very odd is Patsy's reaction to the 'news' (in the 1998 interview) that JB had had prior vaginal intrusion.

quote -



[FONT="]25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are[/FONT]
[FONT="]0581[/FONT]
[FONT="] 1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal[/FONT]
[FONT="] 2 intrusion on JonBenet?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 4 Prior to the night she was killed?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 5 TOM HANEY: Correct.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 been violated like that?[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.

[/FONT]

end quote (but the questions and answers continue in the same vein for some while - see here for full transcript http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm )

What I find unbelievable about it is what she doesn't say and what happens after that exchange.

She asks for clarification to see where it says that.

She doesn't say anything to help in the way of examining her memories, or having a personal need to find out when this could have occurred, who it could have been, thinking back to see if JB had behaved strangely or said anything after being in someone's company, thinking and thinking again how she could not have known or noticed, the kinds of questions that would drive you mad if you were given this news, wanting to know who it could have been. Just saying you are shocked and surprised is like a way of just answering the questions so you can move on to the next one, get the questioning over with. It's massive to be told your 6 yr old daughter had been abused. You would at least not just say I want to see who said it and where it says that - as a mother and the most important figure in your child's life and her protector, you would have a need to know who did it and how it could have been possible. And an anger, possibly failure, and a sense of responsibility to get to the bottom of it. I can't stress how important this relationship is with a kindergarten age child - it's instinctive like a lioness with her cubs. Unless you already knew.


she goes on and on in the same vein -

[FONT="]0585[/FONT]
[FONT="] 1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, sir. I have[/FONT]
[FONT="] 2 answered every question you or anyone else has[/FONT]
[FONT="] 3 asked me to the best of my ability.[/FONT]
[FONT="] 4 TOM HANEY: Would that answer or[/FONT]
[FONT="] 5 would that statement, that information, would[/FONT]
[FONT="] 6 that lead you in any particular direction?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 7 Would you think about a particular person being[/FONT]
[FONT="] 8 involved or doing something, with JonBenet?[/FONT]
[FONT="] 9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't -- I[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 don't -- I just am shocked is all I can say. I[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 don't -- I don't know what I think. You know, I[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 just want to see where it says that.[/FONT]


And then see what happens - She moves on to the next topic. Lets it go, just like that. Phew, got through that without too much sweat.. I'm not looking back if you're not.

I don't think you can blame it on the questioner - something like that would wipe me off my feet. Yes we're all different and react differently, but there was no curiosity or attempt by Patsy to help police with that. She has come through the questions is all she's done. I think a mother does more.

By this point, PR did not trust the BPD and probably feared they were trying to trick her. So I kind of understand her wanting to see the source of the info.

 

[Tortoise]

S

By this point, PR did not trust the BPD and probably feared they were trying to trick her. So I kind of understand her wanting to see the source of the info.

Nothing wrong saying you want to see the source of the info. But she has accepted what she's been told, so it doesn't account for her reaction IMO.

 

[Heymom]

S

By this point, PR did not trust the BPD and probably feared they were trying to trick her. So I kind of understand her wanting to see the source of the info.

But *why* would a parent of a murdered child distrust the police, who are trying to find the murderer? If she had been truly an innocent victim of a crime committed against her young child, wouldn't she want to cooperate as much as possible with the police, giving them all the information she could possibly remember, surrendering anything they asked for, etc.? We've been over this ad infinitum, but the Ramseys went into an adversarial stance with the BPD from the minute they left JonBenet's cold corpse under the Christmas tree and fled the scene. They lawyered up as if they really *were* the suspects, yet claimed to be victims, no doubt with heavy advisement from their highly-paid lawyer team. They obfuscated, obstructed and refused to cooperate, and the DA let them get away with it all long. No justice will ever be give to JonBenet in this life, I'm afraid.

 

[ThinkHard]

Since it came up earlier in this thread about JonBenet's doctor visits, some may not have seen this. It is a list of doctor visits alleged to have been given to Det. Jane Harmer from Beuf's office. It's the reason the Ramseys sometimes claimed they had given Beuf permission to "share" his records on JonBenet. But all it amounts to is a list of visits and phone calls. Notably absent though are the three calls that were made within 30 minutes of one another on the evening of December 17(?) that he didn't disclose and Patsy couldn't remember the reason for when questioned about it.

8/6/90: JBR born.

12/6/91: First visit with Beuf. Treated for fever, cough, and wheezing.

Over next 10 months, she had the usual colds and coughs of a toddler.

1/93: Diagnosed with ear infection (her first). Amoxicillin prescribed.

By age 2 1/2, she had a history of coughs accompanied by low grade fever.

3/93: First serious illness, fever 102, difficulty breathing. Coughed up yellow mucus and looked droopey.

7/93: (Patsy diagnosed with cancer; JBR under Nedra's care). Regressed in toilet training and eating habits.

8/31/93: Responding to Beuf's questions, Patsy says JBR doesn't have any phobias and no aspect of JBR's sexual education needed to be discussed.

9/6/93: Buttocks and vaginal area chafed red from diarrhea.

11/93: Cough and stuffed nose. Sleeping poorly, grouchy from fatigue, bad breath. Chronic sinusitis.

12/31/93: Still drinking from bottle; parents having trouble weaning her.

1/94: Bad breath, cough and congestion.

2/4/94: Nedra suggests Fifth Disease. (Childhood viral illness, often accompanied by rash. Fifth in line of common childhood diseases, i.e., chickenpox, measles). No medication prescribed.

4/94: Breath still bad, runny nose, little appetite, slept poorly, bladder infection and vaginal discharge. Diagnosed with vaginitis. Amoxicillin prescribed and warned against bubble baths.

4/94: (3 weeks later) Still coughing, stuffy nose, congestion. Ear hurt, cranky. Diagnosed with allergic rhinitis, Benedryl prescribed.

4/94: (1 week later). Still coughing, Suprax prescribed.

10/5/94: Came in for checkup, doctor notices scar on left cheek. She'd been hit accidentally by a golf club when the family was in Charlevoix. A week after the accident, a plastic surgeon was consulted. No injury to cheekbone. Beuf is told (at this visit) that she's getting along with brothers and older sister. Wearing pullups at night because she's wetting bed. Patsy completes developmental questionnaire, and says there are no aspects of JonBenet's behavior or sex education she needed to discuss, and also notes JBR has no fears or phobias.

11/1/94: Had diarrhea five times and was lethargic. One bowel movement appeared bloody.

11/4/94: Badly congested, deep cough, bad breath. Diarrhea gone.

1/1/95: Chickenpox. Rash even appears in vaginal area. Recommended Avino, Benadryl and Lanocaine.

1/31/95: Still has bad cough and not sleeping well. Robitussin not helping.

Mid-Feb/95: Cough. Temp 99.3.

3/95: Complained of stomachache but sleeping well.

4/95: JR calls in, says JBR has another cough, but he doesn't think daughter needs to be examined.

5/8/95: JBR falls in Alfalfa's food market, lands on nose, not broken.

12/95: Trips and hits head above left eye. Stuffy nose, bad breath, coughing.

3/96: Coughing a lot.

5/96: Bent nail back on fourth finger, left hand, in another fall. Swollen and painful, but no bruising. Ibuprofen recommended.

8/27/96: Patsy reports JBR's a good sleeper, wasn't hard to get to bed, and was easily awakened in the morning. Not interested in opposit sex, behaved modestly in public, and didn't engage in sex play with her friends. She was, however, asking about sex roles and reproduction. She was not rude or afraid of either parent. Didn't seem to be bossy with brother, didn't react with trantrums, and was active. Loved fruit and some vegetables. Patsy said she was delightful and doing very well. Burke had his annual checkup same day.

9/96: Cough back, Robitussin recommended.

10/96: Stuffy nose, bad breath. Diagnosed with allergic rhinitis.

11/12/96: Runny nose and cold sore, sneezing.

12/3/96: Sees eye doctor.

12/96: Misses pageant due to illness.
​

[Note: In the above list, it seems like (my speculation here) that the specific dates are for actual office visits, and the approximate dates (mo/yr only) are phone consultations or simple notations.] Notice in this list that it notes what was prescribed, what over-the-counter medications were recommended, and even in one case (2/4/94) he mentions &#8220;No medication prescribed.&#8221;

In a Diane Sawyer interview, Beuf also listed the following:

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) We asked him to specifically review all notes that might pertain. He agreed, citing the frenzy of uninformed speculation. Be warned, these are a doctor's clinical notes about a young patient.

September 1993 -- a call about vaginal redness, possibly associated with recent diarrhea.

April 1994 -- a visit about a problem perhaps related to the use of bubble bath, which can be an irritant.

October 1994 -- a routine physical. No problems noted, though some indication of occasional bedwetting. Dr. Beuf says 20 percent to 25 percent of children that age wet the bed.

March 1995 -- abdominal pain and fever. Tests and exam showed no problem.

August 1996 -- another routine physical with a vaginal exam. The doctor said everything checked out as normal.
​

But later from the phone interview Sawyer states the following:

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) And some other notes. Dr. Beuf says he last saw JonBenet Ramsey in November 1996, and that was a checkup for a sinus infection.
​

This November 1996 &#8220;checkup for a sinus infection&#8221; would coincide with the 11/12/96 date from the earlier transcription where no mention is made of any prescribed or recommended medications. Neither does he mention to Sawyer that he had prescribed any medications. Symptoms listed for 11/12/96 are, &#8220;Runny nose and cold sore, sneezing.&#8221;

The last time Beuf could have possibly seen any signs of molestation is 8/27/1996, when he saw her for a regular physical. His notes didn't mention it, but he told Sawyer that it included a "vaginal exam." The panel of child sex abuse experts who looked at the evidence collected by the ME could not determine the number of times she had been molested, or the amount of time that had lapsed since the last occurrence. It could very well have begun escalating (and IMO did) after the August visit. Any longer than that and I think there would have been much more evident chronic trauma.

A couple observations......I've worked with many children in that age who's Karen's have been diagnosed with cancer, and regression in toileting and/or picky eating always seem to go along with it. Again eating and defecting are the two actions young children have control over, so when their world feels out of control, you often see them trying to control their world in one or both of these ways.

Second, her frequent congestive illnesses and stomach issues could be an indication of undiagnosed food allergies or sensitivities. Which happen to, for whatever reason be more frequent in children with LD's or behavioral problems.

Bad breath could be because they still let her use a bottle.

The tripping and hitting her head in things could certainly be normal in childhood but could also be cover ups for things Burke did to her. And bent nail back in a fall? Seems like a difficult thing to do in a fall....but could be "torture" inflicted by a sibling.

The December 1996 pageant she missed for "illness" do we know when that was in regards to the 3 emergency calls made from the house? Could she have actually had visible injuries?

I noticed the "injuries" she suffered also seemed to start and continue from the summer of 1996 through the time of her death.

 

[Karinna]

Right, but did you read the post I was replying to when I had asked those questions?

The original poster had proposed that because there was a pairing knife found near the childrens bedroom and near where BR's army knife would have been stashed away....that perhaps someone first tried to cut the ligatures with the pairing knife but found it not sharp enough so went to retrieve the Swiss Army knife, inadvertently leaving the paring knife they had been carrying upstairs at that time.

So I asked well if that was the case, someone would have to have known that knife was there. And I was questioning why someone would go up two flights of stairs from the basement to retrieve he Swiss Army knife when I'm sure there were other things.....like from a sewing kit, or tool bench that would have worked and would have been much closer.

Yes i did read that post earlier. And thankyou for the clarification. Maybe the answer to your question as to why someone would go up two flights of steps to get the Swiss Army knife if the paring knife didn't work is because they had plenty of time for the staging before the 911 call? The housekeeper thought out of everyone in the house that PR would most likely of found the knife she had hidden. Just like the RN and to the perp. taking their time in practising and then writing it fully. I think it was determined to be at least approx. 20 minutes to write it from the CBS series. So no one was in a great hurry that night to do anything it seems.

 

[ThinkHard]

I think we can all, as parents, put ourselves in Patsy's shoes and say that without a doubt, had we been told, out of the blue, that our murdered 6 year old child had been sexually abused, it would throw us into a tailspin of shock and horror. The interview would have been impossible to continue, for I would have been grieving and in shock and in need of therapy at that point. But not Patsy. Yes, she must have known and have come to terms with it before that interview. If she knew John had been diddling JonBenet, does anyone here truly believe she would have stuck with him through thick and thin? Maybe she tried to tell him something was going on with Burke and he refused to believe her and thus the subtle digs at him in the ransom letter? "Use that good southern common sense of yours John!" "Don't try to grow a brain!" etc.

But her response to hearing that her daughter had been sexually abused is not normal in any way.

I have a feeling she was likely highly medicated....which would effect her expressive empathy and might explain some of her oddities...not that I think she isn't deceptive.

Also I don't think JR was touching JBR but regarding if PR would stay with him if he was?.....you'd be surprised, call it denial, call it just crazy.....but too many women choose to believe what their man tells them over what their child says or they even see for themselves.

 

[otg]

Something that strikes me as very very odd is Patsy's reaction to the 'news' (in the 1998 interview) that JB had had prior vaginal intrusion.

quote -

[FONT=&amp]25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]0581[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 2 intrusion on JonBenet?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 4 Prior to the night she was killed?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 5 TOM HANEY: Correct.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]16 been violated like that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.

[/FONT]

end quote (but the questions and answers continue in the same vein for some while - see here for full transcript http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm )

What I find unbelievable about it is what she doesn't say and what happens after that exchange.

She asks for clarification to see where it says that.

She doesn't say anything to help in the way of examining her memories, or having a personal need to find out when this could have occurred, who it could have been, thinking back to see if JB had behaved strangely or said anything after being in someone's company, thinking and thinking again how she could not have known or noticed, the kinds of questions that would drive you mad if you were given this news, wanting to know who it could have been. Just saying you are shocked and surprised is like a way of just answering the questions so you can move on to the next one, get the questioning over with. It's massive to be told your 6 yr old daughter had been abused. You would at least not just say I want to see who said it and where it says that - as a mother and the most important figure in your child's life and her protector, you would have a need to know who did it and how it could have been possible. And an anger, possibly failure, and a sense of responsibility to get to the bottom of it. I can't stress how important this relationship is with a kindergarten age child - it's instinctive like a lioness with her cubs. Unless you already knew.


she goes on and on in the same vein -

[FONT=&amp]0585[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, sir. I have[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 2 answered every question you or anyone else has[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 3 asked me to the best of my ability.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 4 TOM HANEY: Would that answer or[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 5 would that statement, that information, would[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 6 that lead you in any particular direction?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 7 Would you think about a particular person being[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 8 involved or doing something, with JonBenet?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't -- I[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]10 don't -- I just am shocked is all I can say. I[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]11 don't -- I don't know what I think. You know, I[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]12 just want to see where it says that.[/FONT]


And then see what happens - She moves on to the next topic. Lets it go, just like that. Phew, got through that without too much sweat.. I'm not looking back if you're not.

I don't think you can blame it on the questioner - something like that would wipe me off my feet. Yes we're all different and react differently, but there was no curiosity or attempt by Patsy to help police with that. She has come through the questions is all she's done. I think a mother does more.

I'm glad you picked up on this, Tortoise. I'd love to see the video of this part of the interview to help gauge her reactions, but I've always thought that this was one of the few times Patsy was completely genuine. Others may disagree with that, but (just reading it) she does seem truly surprised by the information about "prior vaginal intrusion." If she wasn't aware that "someone" had been doing this prior to the night JonBenet died, imagine trying to hide how PO'd she would be while trying to hide her thoughts of, "Boy, just wait until I get my hands on him!" She seems to be so thrown off she doesn't even ask how that could possibly be that an "intruder" could have had regular access to her daughter without her knowledge. IMO, she didn't realize until just then that this had been going on for some time before Christmas. And like you point out, it's the questions she doesn't ask that are very telling about what might have been going on.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm glad you picked up on this, Tortoise. I'd love to see the video of this part of the interview to help gauge her reactions, but I've always thought that this was one of the few times Patsy was completely genuine. Others may disagree with that, but (just reading it) she does seem truly surprised by the information about "prior vaginal intrusion." If she wasn't aware that "someone" had been doing this prior to the night JonBenet died, imagine trying to hide how PO'd she would be while trying to hide her thoughts of, "Boy, just wait until I get my hands on him!" She seems to be so thrown off she doesn't even ask how that could possibly be that an "intruder" could have had regular access to her daughter without her knowledge. IMO, she didn't realize until just then that this had been going on for some time before Christmas. And like you point out, it's the questions she doesn't ask that are very telling about what might have been going on.

To me it's like she is just making the right noises. Yes when you see her words 'I'm shocked' etc. at a surface level it reads as an acceptable or genuine answer to the question, but it isn't, in my view, a real surprise because then you would expect the fall out from surprise and concern. The missing reaction. As well as the moving on, like you have just been told something unsurprising.

 

[ThinkHard]

I'm glad you picked up on this, Tortoise. I'd love to see the video of this part of the interview to help gauge her reactions, but I've always thought that this was one of the few times Patsy was completely genuine. Others may disagree with that, but (just reading it) she does seem truly surprised by the information about "prior vaginal intrusion." If she wasn't aware that "someone" had been doing this prior to the night JonBenet died, imagine trying to hide how PO'd she would be while trying to hide her thoughts of, "Boy, just wait until I get my hands on him!" She seems to be so thrown off she doesn't even ask how that could possibly be that an "intruder" could have had regular access to her daughter without her knowledge. IMO, she didn't realize until just then that this had been going on for some time before Christmas. And like you point out, it's the questions she doesn't ask that are very telling about what might have been going on.

Maybe she was aware or suspected some funny business with her children or someone else, but had convinced herself it wasn't real or bad down played it in her mind, and it wasn't till that moment that she realized how extreme the behavior had been and how long it had been going on....

 

[ElleElle]

Wow ... after reading all of JBRs illnesses, it almost sounds like she was drugged! Any records of blood/urine tests?

IMO, this is not normal for a child who is raised in upper class N. America. Sounds also like some sort of neglect going on, or she was mistreated and not cared for and loved properly.

 

[ThinkHard]

One more observation about the Dr's records...

I noticed injuries seemed to start in the summer of 1996, it was that summer that they had spent a good chunk of time in Michigan with their half siblings.

JBR was murderd the night before leaving to go back to Michigan.

I think something dramatic and serious started over the summer of 1996....and I think it caused a great deal of anxiety in Burke....perhaps extra anxiety was building in him as a return to Michigan approached and it could have put him in a heightened state of aggression that night.

 

[ThinkHard]

Wow ... after reading all of JBRs illnesses, it almost sounds like she was drugged! Any records of blood/urine tests?

IMO, this is not normal for a child who is raised in upper class N. America. Sounds also like some sort of neglect going on, or she was mistreated and not cared for and loved properly.

Possibly, but to me it sounds more likely to be from undiagnosed systemic issues like food sensitivity and allergies, or an autimmune disorder.