The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[ThinkHard]

Let's learn together. Microscopic examination from the autopsy:

focal interstitial chronic inflammation - vaginal mucosa
interstitial chronic inflammation infiltrate - thyroid
mild chronic inflammation - trachea

vascular congestion - vaginal mucosa, lungs, thymus; and perhaps kidney (mild, only in cortex with no inflammation)

I think that many believe that the changes in the vaginal mucosa were evident on gross examination, but they were not - they were noted under microscopic examination.

What do all of those body parts have in common? It isn't "chronic sexual abuse" but rather remnants of the injuries immediately preceding death (vaginal mucosa) and the death by strangulation itself (thyroid, trachea, lungs, thymus) leading to vascular congestion and inflammation. JMO

So why do they refer to it as CHRONIC inflammation if it all occurred because of the events of that night....that certain,y wouldn't make the inflammation chronic.

 

[ThinkHard]

As stated by someone above, they didn't just read the autopsy report. If you read what I posted, it gives great detail about what physical characteristics indicated abuse. Additionally, this was a panel comprised of some of the foremost experts on childhood sexual abuse.

If you can read that very technical information and still dismiss the possibility of abuse, AND ignore the opinions of multiple renowned experts, it's because you willfully don't want to believe it, not because of any proof or lack of proof.



It's important to note that Burke also showed signs of abuse, and it's very possible someone else was abusing Jonbenet.

Yes I agree, IF BR was playing sexual games with his sister, it's unlikely those ideas totally originated from him. When children are victims of sexual abuse, in order to sort of process, gain control, and make sense regarding what is happening to them, they can sometimes become the aggressor themselves to someone younger or weaker then themselves.

Also kind of on another topic.,,,but I can't help but coming back to the feces smearing.....food &feces issues wth kids is pretty much always about control. You can't really make someone eat or defecate so these are the two things kids learn very very early on that they have some level of control over.

To me the smearing is about BR asserting his control over JBR or at least trying to assert his control over her. I think he was a boy who very much felt like things were happening to him in his life that he had no control over and he was grasping at trying to control whatever pieces of his world he could.

 

[ThinkHard]

I won't dream of trying to quote from singularity's post above as this site is wiggy enough for me as it is, but I'll make a few comments.

Two hours were cut from the CBS special and they were cut within a few weeks of the air date. That's a third of the show, and that itself raises questions.

What was cut and why it was cut we don't yet know, but as you indicate, they came right out and said Burke did it. So its a fair guess they didn't cut two hours out because they are concerned about a lawsuit. It may be that they truncated the special because it was too much JonBenet, but one would think the final editing had taken place before they announced a 6 hour special in the adverts. The disclaimer itself is pretty meaningless. They said Burke did it, and there is no doubt CBS's legal counsel was okay with that from a legal liability standpoint. (In his book, Kolar basically came out and said a civil lawsuit defense would help expose truths here and I totally agree. Bring it on, Lin. )

The sexual assault stuff was absolutely glossed over. It could be that it muddled the show's conclusion. Which is not to say that boys Burke's age never sexually assault smaller children. It certainly does happen, just as kids killing weaker, younger kids has been known to happen. Kolar's book does a good job outlining the stats in this regard. However, it's a complex - and not fully clear - piece of a very complex case and the editing staff may have felt it made sense to avoid any in-depth discussion of it.

Six hours isn't nearly enough to properly delve into this case, never mind four. But "all questions" about this murder are never going to be answered. We have to make do with the puzzle pieces we have and hope we get a few more along the way.

Honestly what I find shocking....is that CBS looked at everything they had, and thought the conclusion was so strong that they could stand by it in a court of law......and still managed to convince audiences of their conclusion with only 2/3 of a ducomentary. .... Makes we wonder what's on that last 3? Could it be something CBS knows is the final smoking gun....and are intentionally saving it?

 

[Tortoise]

Who else would be using that cupboard as a matter of routine ? Was it a linen cupboard ? We know Patsy had to change sheets when JBR wet her bed. Had the housekeeper hidden things from Burke before ? If so, he might have conducted his own search. I agree it is significant that this particular pocket knife that Burke used a great deal for whittling away on pieces of wood, was found near the body. Either he, or someone else in the house found it, and probably did use it to cut nylon rope, or even duct tape. Leaving it behind is the kind of mistake a panicky child would make, or even a distraught Mother. Was it tested for fingerprints and traces left when it was last used ? IMO

IMO

I was just searching to see if I could find out if fibres were found on the swiss army knife. I couldn't find that but I did read some interesting posts regarding the two knives that were found at the crime scene. I've added to it to put together a scenario that might have played out.

Before Christmas Day Patsy is packing the suitcase on JAR's bed, goes to the cupboard where she's stored the pull-ups and takes a couple out to put in the suitcase for the Disney trip. She doesn't want JB soiling the mattress on the cruise ship. She sees that this is where the housekeeper has hidden BR's swiss army knife. Or she sees it when she first put the pack of pull-ups in there.

Police photograph a kitchen fruit-paring knife on the counter top in the laundry area outside JB's bedroom, underneath the open cupboard where the packet of pull-ups was hanging out, and the swiss army knife on a counter top in the basement, not in the wine cellar room.

Someone preparing the garrote in the basement needed a knife to cut the cord.

That person (or their assistant) makes a first port of call at the kitchen to grab a kitchen knife.

Returns to use this and finds it's not effective at cutting cord.

Remembers the swiss army knife is in the laundry cupboard upstairs. Leaves to get it, still holding the fruit paring knife, intending to put it back in the kitchen.

Decides to go get the swiss army knife first, absent-mindedly places the fruit paring knife down on the laundry counter top and in a panic and a dash to get back to the basement forgets they've put it there, while getting out the swiss army knife and leaving the pull-ups cupboard door open.

 

[Karinna]

Who else would be using that cupboard as a matter of routine ? Was it a linen cupboard ? We know Patsy had to change sheets when JBR wet her bed. Had the housekeeper hidden things from Burke before ? If so, he might have conducted his own search. I agree it is significant that this particular pocket knife that Burke used a great deal for whittling away on pieces of wood, was found near the body. Either he, or someone else in the house found it, and probably did use it to cut nylon rope, or even duct tape. Leaving it behind is the kind of mistake a panicky child would make, or even a distraught Mother. Was it tested for fingerprints and traces left when it was last used ? IMO

IMO

I think the housekeeper alluded to PR finding the hidden pocket knife of BR's because it was the cupboard where PR got fresh bedding from. From what i remember the knife was taken into evidence.

 

[ThinkHard]

I was just searching to see if I could find out if fibres were found on the swiss army knife. I couldn't find that but I did read some interesting posts regarding the two knives that were found at the crime scene. I've added to it to put together a scenario that might have played out.

Before Christmas Day Patsy is packing the suitcase on JAR's bed, goes to the cupboard where she's stored the pull-ups and takes a couple out to put in the suitcase for the Disney trip. She doesn't want JB soiling the mattress on the cruise ship. She sees that this is where the housekeeper has hidden BR's swiss army knife. Or she sees it when she first put the pack of pull-ups in there.

Police photograph a kitchen fruit-paring knife on the counter top in the laundry area outside JB's bedroom, underneath the open cupboard where the packet of pull-ups was hanging out, and the swiss army knife on a counter top in the basement, not in the wine cellar room.

Someone preparing the garrote in the basement needed a knife to cut the cord.

That person (or their assistant) makes a first port of call at the kitchen to grab a kitchen knife.

Returns to use this and finds it's not effective at cutting cord.

Remembers the swiss army knife is in the laundry cupboard upstairs. Leaves to get it, still holding the fruit paring knife, intending to put it back in the kitchen.

Decides to go get the swiss army knife first, absent-mindedly places the fruit paring knife down on the laundry counter top and in a panic and a dash to get back to the basement forgets they've put it there, while getting out the swiss army knife and leaving the pull-ups cupboard door open.

Who do you believe this may have been?

It would have to be someone who knows the army knife is there.

But if it was PR wouldn't she just grabbed scissors from sewing supplies in the basement? Why look for a kitchen knife to do the job at all? and then why seek out a knife two floors up, when I'm sure a sharp objection could have been found closer.

 

[Heymom]

Yes I agree, IF BR was playing sexual games with his sister, it's unlikely those ideas totally originated from him. When children are victims of sexual abuse, in order to sort of process, gain control, and make sense regarding what is happening to them, they can sometimes become the aggressor themselves to someone younger or weaker then themselves.

Also kind of on another topic.,,,but I can't help but coming back to the feces smearing.....food &feces issues wth kids is pretty much always about control. You can't really make someone eat or defecate so these are the two things kids learn very very early on that they have some level of control over.

To me the smearing is about BR asserting his control over JBR or at least trying to assert his control over her. I think he was a boy who very much felt like things were happening to him in his life that he had no control over and he was grasping at trying to control whatever pieces of his world he could.

Did anyone ever mention finding in the home? Back then, maybe it would have been viewed as just "normal guy stuff," but can be connected to sexual abuse of children. I don't know if JR or JAR might have had laying around but it's a question I have.

 

[Karinna]

Who do you believe this may have been?

It would have to be someone who knows the army knife is there.

But if it was PR wouldn't she just grabbed scissors from sewing supplies in the basement? Why look for a kitchen knife to do the job at all? and then why seek out a knife two floors up, when I'm sure a sharp objection could have been found closer.

The knife was found in the basement by police where JBR's body was found.

 

[ThinkHard]

The knife was found in the basement by police where JBR's body was found.

Right, but what does that have to do with anything I wrote?

 

[Karinna]

Right, but what does that have to do with anything I wrote?

Because no scissors were found at the crime scene but a knife was found near JBR's body.

 

[FrankieB]

FrankieB already mentioned one thing we know was cut was the footage of them trying to talk to Burke that was in the promo. But another thing we never got to see was a recording of a nasty phone call that played briefly in the end. You can hear a woman with a southern accent saying very severely, "If you EVER try to contact me again..." or something like that. It sounded like Patsy to me (meaning it would have to be an old call someone recorded) or her sister Pam. I was really curious about that one.

Oh yes! I was looking forward to that.

Patsy or her sister is a definitive possibility.

At some point during the first episode I was wondering why Linda Arndt hadn't appeared yet and then I remembered she became friends with Patsy.

 

[FrankieB]

It is laughable to me that the dust ruffle on a bed being slightly out of place is discussed as evidence of anything but the general state of hot mess inside the Ramsey home. There was no OCD cleaning going on here with someone rushing around putting everything in it's place - ever. It could have happened when a Bichon named Jaques was under the bed, or from LHP vacuuming the carpeting or someone's shoe catching on the ruffle while making the bed. No, it MUST be evidence that the blue suitcase was once under the bed and now was in the basement or evidence of the intruder hiding under the bed waiting to pounce on JBR.

Sometimes a disturbed bed skirt is just part of everyday life.

Nobody is suggesting an intruder came out from under the bed. As it has been pointed out in the previous page, a person would have disturbed the ruffle far more.

The thing to highlight here is how messy that bedroom was (Ok, all the home was messy) but then you have Patsy playing games during interrogation when asked about very specific objects in that room.

 

[FrankieB]

Just linking the transcript, it starts at line 0527/16.

It sounds to me like she's saying oh God after seeing a picture of the children, and it's just a sad reminder of JB. And then some pictures of the messy hallway and she can't understand why anyone would take those, maybe to finish the roll.

The pictures from her camera (on 25th) showed her writing pad (probably not being in the same place it was in police photos on 26th judging by her gasps), and the plastic bag at the foot of the spiral staircase that she said she may have put there on 26th, containing clothes for the trip, so the pictures showed it was already there on 25th.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Both scenarios are possible, either she saw something inappropriate or things unfolded as you suggested, the transcript is so redacted we will likely never know, which is incredibly frustrating.

 

[ThinkHard]

Because no scissors were found at the crime scene but a knife was found near JBR's body.

Right, but did you read the post I was replying to when I had asked those questions?

The original poster had proposed that because there was a pairing knife found near the childrens bedroom and near where BR's army knife would have been stashed away....that perhaps someone first tried to cut the ligatures with the pairing knife but found it not sharp enough so went to retrieve the Swiss Army knife, inadvertently leaving the paring knife they had been carrying upstairs at that time.

So I asked well if that was the case, someone would have to have known that knife was there. And I was questioning why someone would go up two flights of stairs from the basement to retrieve he Swiss Army knife when I'm sure there were other things.....like from a sewing kit, or tool bench that would have worked and would have been much closer.

 

[ElleElle]

Not really about the CBS docu, but I have been reading things that I may missed years ago.

At the Ramsey Christmas party on Dec. 23rd, a 911 call was made?

Any of you fabulous sleuthers have an explanation for this? It has been suggested it was JR that made that call as wanted to see how long police would be dispatched ...

 

[ThinkHard]

Not really about the CBS docu, but I have been reading things that I may missed years ago.

At the Ramsey Christmas party on Dec. 23rd, a 911 call was made?

Any of you fabulous sleuthers have an explanation for this? It has been suggested it was JR that made that call as wanted to see how long police would be dispatched ...

That seems unlikely, because that would mean the R's were planning to murder their daughter and stage it....and that is one angle I find highly improbable.

My guess is BR had maybe gone off the deep end that day and been threatening aggressive acts or actually had engaged in aggressive acts.....perhaps he even caused JBR to be knocked unconscious been came to shortly.

Perhaps that call is part of how the GJ felt this was both premeditated and also demonstrated failure in the parents part to ensure the safety of JBR, thus endangering her.

 

[Tortoise]

Who do you believe this may have been?

It would have to be someone who knows the army knife is there.

But if it was PR wouldn't she just grabbed scissors from sewing supplies in the basement? Why look for a kitchen knife to do the job at all? and then why seek out a knife two floors up, when I'm sure a sharp objection could have been found closer.

Do you know there were sewing supplies in the basement?

Good questions though. Maybe the knife wasn't to cut cord but for some other purpose.

Was the paintbrush handle stripped of its coating perhaps? It looks to me as if it was.

Scraped over a sink and washed away, the swiss knife being found on a counter near the sink in the basement - not near her body as some are saying.

 

[ElleElle]

That seems unlikely, because that would mean the R's were planning to murder their daughter and stage it....and that is one angle I find highly improbable.

My guess is BR had maybe gone off the deep end that day and been threatening aggressive acts or actually had engaged in aggressive acts.....perhaps he even caused JBR to be knocked unconscious been came to shortly.

Perhaps that call is part of how the GJ felt this was both premeditated and also demonstrated failure in the parents part to ensure the safety of JBR, thus endangering her.

BBM ~ Could it be that the state of the house was cause endangerment? I mean, we only saw parts of the house and it is messy, borderline hoarder, IMO. Maybe with knives and other weapon-like objects is why the GJ indicted them? Didn't the GJ tour the R home?

 

[johnjay]

BBM ~ Could it be that the state of the house was cause endangerment? I mean, we only saw parts of the house and it is messy, borderline hoarder, IMO. Maybe with knives and other weapon-like objects is why the GJ indicted them? Didn't the GJ tour the R home?

I'm thinking a bit more than a messy house was on the minds of the GJ.

I didn't find the house all that messy considering it was Christmas time and young kids in the house. You should see my basement!

 

[Heymom]

BBM ~ Could it be that the state of the house was cause endangerment? I mean, we only saw parts of the house and it is messy, borderline hoarder, IMO. Maybe with knives and other weapon-like objects is why the GJ indicted them? Didn't the GJ tour the R home?

That was long after all of the family's effects had been removed from the house. It was basically just a shell at that point, and there might already have been some renovations in preparation for its sale. Can't remember the timeline of the renovations. But the house had long since been empty.

I think the state of the house was a lot less important in the scale of things, although it may have played a small part in the GJ's assessment.