The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[ThinkHard]

Well, there is another faction here that thinks he slept though the whole thing and Patsy did it. And they are just as sure as you are that the Patsy did it. Interesting.

There is pretty clear evidence Burke did not sleep through the whole thing:

His fingerprints on the bowl and glass
His own admission of being awake and downstairs playing with a toy that night after parents went to their room.
His own admission he had been awake even when in his room that morning and only pretended to be sleeping.
The 911 call with a child's voice at the end.

So I'm not sure what evidence they are using to uphold the theory Burke was asleep through it all....when even if you discount everything else....he himself admitted to be awake and downstairs that night.

 

[Tortoise]

I thought the tape of Burke crawling out of his skin trying to avoid saying "pineapple" was an amazing sight to see. I was already pretty convinced that he did it, but wow did that cement it for me.

I thought it just showed that he had a reason to feel scared of admitting it. Which could have been that he was told to say he went to bed and stayed there all night. He could have eaten pineapple with JB when they came home, and still not been aware of what happened to her afterwards.

 

[Brendon]

There is pretty clear evidence Burke did not sleep through the whole thing:

His fingerprints on the bowl and glass
His own admission of being awake and downstairs playing with a toy that night after parents went to their room.
His own admission he had been awake even when in his room that morning and only pretended to be sleeping.
The 911 call with a child's voice at the end.

So I'm not sure what evidence they are using to uphold the theory Burke was asleep through it all....when even if you discount everything else....he himself admitted to be awake and downstairs that night.

None of that is evidence that he was present at the time of JB's death. Fingerprints on a bowl isn't proof of killing. Since there is no connection to the bowl with JB, its only circumstantial that they ate the same fruit at one stage that day. Hardly a revelation. Nor is being awake sometime prior to the killing. The 911 call is very inconclusive, and like the Trayvon Martin audio tapes, different people conclude it differently. Being awake in the morning in his own room, ditto.

The pineapple evidence is all over the shop. With claims by "experts" (who do we believe?) that she may have eaten the pineapple as early at 4.30pm!
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682517/The Pineapple Evidence

There seems so little circumstantial evidence, and what is left is argued this way and that. jmo

 

[ukrberserker23]

I was thinking of that pile of Pooh on the candy in JBR's room. What if it was her own? That would explain why her body only contained the pineapple remains. But why would she crap on her own candy? Originally, PR stated that she put JBR to bed in the red sweater. Possibly the same one found in the sink. Maybe JBR wet herself in the sweater, and changed back to the shirt she already had worn. Too bad there weren't any DNA tests on these items.

 

[wannagonorth]

. I am in the BDI camp, but why did Patsy remain in her clothing from the night before? The BDI explanation would be that she became aware of the attack quickly.

No part of Patsy's explanation of her grooming that day made any sense to me. She claimed she washed her face and changed into pajamas for sleep the night before. She said she got up the next day, fixed her hair and make up, put on clean underwear and got dressed in the same clothes from the day before, which were lying over the tub. She said she came downstairs to put the coffee on. All before finding the note. So when did she shower, or plan to? Who puts on clean underwear in the morning without showering? Who gets fully dressed to put the coffee on if they haven't showered yet?

Most likely explanation to me is that she never went to bed. More remote possibility is that she handled the body the night before and was astute enough to be thinking ahead about how to explain away the fiber evidence

 

[ThinkHard]

None of that is evidence that he was present at the time of JB's death. Fingerprints on a bowl isn't proof of killing. Since there is no connection to the bowl with JB, its only circumstantial that they ate the same fruit at one stage that day. Hardly a revelation. Nor is being awake sometime prior to the killing. The 911 call is very inconclusive, and like the Trayvon Martin audio tapes, different people conclude it differently. Being awake in the morning in his own room, ditto.

The pineapple evidence is all over the shop. With claims by "experts" (who do we believe?) that she may have eaten the pineapple as early at 4.30pm!
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682517/The Pineapple Evidence

There seems so little circumstantial evidence, and what is left is argued this way and that. jmo

I didn't say proof he was their at her death now did I.

You said people are still of the belief Patsy did it and Burke was asleep all night.

I specifically said how can they still be of the camp that Burke was asleep all night....when their is clear evidence and his own omission he was in fact not asleep all night.

Now one can take the logical leap that if they lied about that, they had a reason to.....and thus we have to seriously consider Burkes involvement. I did not however say the above was proof he did it, only that he was awake and downstairs when his parents have claimed for years he wasn't.

Finally I don't know what your blinders regarding the significance of the pineapple are all about, but her dinner was found much further down her digestive track then where the pineapple was, indicating hours btw her dinner and that pineapple......there is ZERO chance she could have eaten the pineapple before her dinner.....if she had, her dinner wouldn't have magically passed by the pineapple in her digestive track, that's just not how the digestive track works.

and your link under evidence pineapple was eaten before or after....the authors sources are "internet posters" not experts.

 

[ThinkHard]

I was thinking of that pile of Pooh on the candy in JBR's room. What if it was her own? That would explain why her body only contained the pineapple remains. But why would she crap on her own candy? Originally, PR stated that she put JBR to bed in the red sweater. Possibly the same one found in the sink. Maybe JBR wet herself in the sweater, and changed back to the shirt she already had worn. Too bad there weren't any DNA tests on these items.

How would her own feces on the chocolate explain why only pineapple was found in her stomach? I'm not seeing the connection.

 

[Karinna]

PR might have been a drinker unless she couldn't drink because of cancer related medication/treatment?

 

[ukrberserker23]

If she ate dinner at the Whites, then that food would have been in her lower intestine by midnight. It wasn't, so therefore she had to have crapped sometime before she was killed.

 

[Brendon]

I didn't say proof he was their at her death now did I.

You said people are still of the belief Patsy did it and Burke was asleep all night.

I specifically said how can they still be of the camp that Burke was asleep all night....when their is clear evidence and his own omission he was in fact not asleep all night.

Now one can take the logical leap that if they lied about that, they had a reason to.....and thus we have to seriously consider Burkes involvement. I did not however say the above was proof he did it, only that he was awake and downstairs when his parents have claimed for years he wasn't.

Finally I don't know what your blinders regarding the significance of the pineapple are all about, but her dinner was found much further down her digestive track then where the pineapple was, indicating hours btw her dinner and that pineapple......there is ZERO chance she could have eaten the pineapple before her dinner.....if she had, her dinner wouldn't have magically passed by the pineapple in her digestive track, that's just not how the digestive track works.

and your link under evidence pineapple was eaten before or after....the authors sources are "internet posters" not experts.

No you didn't. And I'm not saying that you did. Evidence is not proof.

Yes, there are people on here that have thought that Patsy did it herself in a fit of rage over bed-wetting. That leaves JR completely out of it.

There was a point in time that the Ramseys saw the police investigation as the enemy. Now, they could still be innocent and see it that way. At that time we had a quite a few false memory trials where families were destroyed in the media and courts, then later found innocent. Do you remember them? And in the same year 1996 Richard Jewell's life became a nightmare over the Atlanta bombing. And everyone was just so sure all the evidence lined up, thanks to the detectives, the media, and a host of experts. I think people knew then that police investigations can go horribly wrong, and when they team up with the media (selective leaks, alliances) they can destroy innocent lives. John Ramsey was a wealthy businessman, and I don't know what his lawyer told him very early in the piece. But I can guess. And all what I just wrote could be true, and Patsy still could be guilty. On the evidence, I don't know.

I believe the pineapple evidence is a good clue for time of death. But that is all.

 

[ThinkHard]

If she ate dinner at the Whites, then that food would have been in her lower intestine by midnight. It wasn't, so therefore she had to have crapped sometime before she was killed.

I had read the rest of her dinner in the form of fecal matter had indeed been found in the lower parts of her digestive track.

 

[SecretaryGal]

Couple questions....and hoping long time sleuthers can help here.....my first thought is perhaps JBR carried that blanket down herself when she came down to see what Burke was doing? I know kids who would carry around an oversize blanket like that to go down and watch cartoons in the am.....so was just thinking perhaps she brought that down herself.


Which brought me to this question.....when did JBR get changed into PJ's......did she come back from the whites in them? Parents say she was asleep when they got home....did they change her while she was still asleep? Just wondering if she was asleep the whole time how she went from Xmas dinner clothes, to being found dead in PJ's?

Did they ask the housekeeper about the blanket? Had she put it in the downstairs dryer ?

 

[ThinkHard]

No you didn't. And I'm not saying that you did. Evidence is not proof.

Yes, there are people on here that have thought that Patsy did it herself in a fit of rage over bed-wetting. That leaves JR completely out of it.

There was a point in time that the Ramseys saw the police investigation as the enemy. Now, they could still be innocent and see it that way. At that time we had a quite a few false memory trials where families were destroyed in the media and courts, then later found innocent. Do you remember them? And in the same year 1996 Richard Jewell's life became a nightmare over the Atlanta bombing. And everyone was just so sure all the evidence lined up, thanks to the detectives, the media, and a host of experts. I think people knew then that police investigations can go horribly wrong, and when they team up with the media (selective leaks, alliances) they can destroy innocent lives. John Ramsey was a wealthy businessman, and I don't know what his lawyer told him very early in the piece. But I can guess. And all what I just wrote could be true, and Patsy still could be guilty. On the evidence, I don't know.

I believe the pineapple evidence is a good clue for time of death. But that is all.

You are kind of all over the place, and your arguments FOR things are so disjointed with your claims of lack of evidence for other things.

You slam pretty important details as being insignificant and then harp on things with little to no meaning....like if Patsy acted tired on the 26th or not.

Keep in mind the grand jury saw enough evidence to indict them on endangerment charges and for covering for the murder and child abuse carried out by a 3rd party, and they had way more to go on then we do......

That's pretty hard to just gloss over or dismiss.

 

[ThinkHard]

Did they ask the housekeeper about the blanket? Had she put it in the downstairs dryer ?

I have no idea. I'm gonna have to spend some time reading A Candy Rose and getting some of those details if they are there.

I was thinking about the blanket last night as I was falling asleep.....someone else had mentions it came from the dryer....and I was just trying to think about why and when it was being washed in the first place. Presumably btw her death and the 911 call there would have been time to wash it...and I was wondering if evidence could have been washed off it before it was wrapped around her.

Also did this blanket have a normal location? In photos of JBRs bed I didn't notice any blanket or quilt just sheets ... And wondered if this was the blanket from her bed?....and again if so how and when did it end up I the laundry room to be laundered?

 

[ukrberserker23]

I'll have to check the autopsy report again. Logic would assume she ate three meals that day. Who knows what her usual evacuation time was. Mine is usually after breakfast. My father's is after supper. Just not ruling out that it could have been JBR's.

 

[ConcernedinDC]

No part of Patsy's explanation of her grooming that day made any sense to me. She claimed she washed her face and changed into pajamas for sleep the night before. She said she got up the next day, fixed her hair and make up, put on clean underwear and got dressed in the same clothes from the day before, which were lying over the tub. She said she came downstairs to put the coffee on. All before finding the note. So when did she shower, or plan to? Who puts on clean underwear in the morning without showering? Who gets fully dressed to put the coffee on if they haven't showered yet?

Most likely explanation to me is that she never went to bed. More remote possibility is that she handled the body the night before and was astute enough to be thinking ahead about how to explain away the fiber evidence

I always thought it was on purpose and she could somehow explain fibers if she had the same clothes the day they found her. It doesn't make sense but maybe she thought it did.

If she was "smart" she could have said I did I woke up , did my make up, Went downstairs, found note, called police, threw on clothes on tub before police arrived because I sleep naked or something. That would at least sound plausible.

 

[Heymom]

I am trying to catch up with all of the posts since last night, so this goes back in the discussion.

As I was looking through John's deposition in the Stephen Miles case, here: http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2000/0206deposition.html I noticed that he states that he and Patsy socialized with Dr. and Mrs. Beuf. So that could explain the inappropriate prescription of sedatives to Patsy after JonBenet's death. They had a social relationship with the pediatrician.

Bottom of p. 39 for anyone who cares.

 

[Heymom]

I had read the rest of her dinner in the form of fecal matter had indeed been found in the lower parts of her digestive track.

I don't recall this being in the autopsy, but it's possible I have forgotten all of the details over the years. In the general scheme of things, it's not terribly important, except if the dinner was in her lower intestine and was evacuated when she died, that would explain the need to clean her up before they staged the scene.

 

[Brendon]

You are kind of all over the place, and your arguments FOR things are so disjointed with your claims of lack of evidence for other things.

You slam pretty important details as being insignificant and then harp on things with little to no meaning....like if Patsy acted tired on the 26th or not.

Keep in mind the grand jury saw enough evidence to indict them on endangerment charges and for covering for the murder and child abuse carried out by a 3rd party, and they had way more to go on then we do......

That's pretty hard to just gloss over or dismiss.

I admit I'm not sure about it. But with the lack of evidence, is that not a reasonable position?

As for getting the importance of details in their proper perspective, we don't agree on that. Right back at you, with the pineapple evidence proving nothing other than being circumstantial evidence for time of death. How people act and what is picked up on their behavior is important. To me.

I don't quite understand the endangerment charges with the GJ. It seems like a legal device to get a conviction. If there was strong circumstantial evidence for wrongful killing, wouldn't that be the charge?

 

[johnjay]

I admit I'm not sure about it. But with the lack of evidence, is that not a reasonable position?

As for getting the importance of details in their proper perspective, we don't agree on that. Right back at you, with the pineapple evidence proving nothing other than being circumstantial evidence for time of death. How people act and what is picked up on their behavior is important. To me.

I don't quite understand the endangerment charges with the GJ. It seems like a legal device to get a conviction. If there was strong circumstantial evidence for wrongful killing, wouldn't that be the charge?

Not if the killer was too young to be charged for wrongful killing.

It seems rather obvious to me what the endangerment charges were all about. My interpretation is: the parents had good reason to know, based on previous happenings, that Burke was a danger to his sister; and they didn't adequately protect JonBenet. The CBS show did a good job of making this clear.

As for the other charge: my interpretations is: the parents covered up for Burke.