The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18

[margarita25]

(Well, as coincidence has it, it appears Kolar is my boyfriend's neighbor. I see him regularly, had no idea that was him. He told us he was in law enforcement...he mostly keeps to himself. Almost fell out of my seat when I saw him sitting on the panel last night. Small world...)

 

[jslk]

@positive light thank you so much for the summary. It doesn't sound like there's much left for the IDIs after this programme. It seems like Kolar's book is very close to the truth indeed.

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[Dogface]

The more I'm watching the sicker I am feeling. Not because she was this beautiful little girl(but she was truly beautiful and had that little smile that just steals your heart because you can just see she was this little spunky child) but just because she was so little, and her death, for which there will never be true justice, turned into such a circus. It's all such a cluster ####. It's just not right, it's not fair. Their wealth, their community status should have played no role in how it was handled. It makes me so damn angry. Seeing her little brain, bruised...I just can't stop the tears from coming.

IF BR did this, I am not sure PR could have not been immensely resentful to him, so I do struggle with that.

This is like one of those trick paintings where you can see several different things in the same image.

 

[jslk]

The more I'm watching the sicker I am feeling. Not because she was this beautiful little girl(but she was truly beautiful and had that little smile that just steals your heart because you can just see she was this little spunky child) but just because she was so little, and her death, for which there will never be true justice, turned into such a circus. It's all such a cluster ####. It's just not right, it's not fair. Their wealth, their community status should have played no role in how it was handled. It makes me so damn angry. Seeing her little brain, bruised...I just can't stop the tears from coming.

IF BR did this, I am not sure PR could have not been immensely resentful to him, so I do struggle with that.

This is like one of those trick paintings where you can see several different things in the same image.

[emoji22]

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[minazoe]

At this point I wish the investigators would stop calling this a "homicide." I truly do not think anyone intended for JBR to die that night. Therefore, it's a killing as a result of an accident/moment of rage. There can't be any "justice" for JBR because the head bash cannot be taken back--Spitz confirmed that injury was fatal. Her heart continued to beat for some time, but her brain was mortally wounded--she was in essence a goner.

You can't today arrest BR for what he did in 1996 as a 9 yr and 11mo old child. I know people wish they could see the handcuffs and a perp walk, but that isn't going to happen. The Boulder DAs office could have brought charges against JR & PR for the obstruction of justice and endangerment, but they didn't and now it's too late.

But it wasn't really a "murder" in the sense that (IMO) intent was not part of this. Yes, the R's intended to cover it up and stage the scene to throw off investigators. Yes, that is a crime because it's illegal. But *IF* Burke inflicted the head bash, it's not considered murder. He may have intended to hit her, but legally-speaking he couldn't form intent to kill.

Not everyone...including me , thinks this was an accident gone wrong..I believe Burke hit his sister, strangled her ,and played with her corpse for a couple of hours before alerting his mother..I believe it was one of the parents who brought down the blankets and wrapped her body in them. Moo

 

[TeaTime]

At this point I wish the investigators would stop calling this a "homicide." I truly do not think anyone intended for JBR to die that night. Therefore, it's a killing as a result of an accident/moment of rage. There can't be any "justice" for JBR because the head bash cannot be taken back--Spitz confirmed that injury was fatal. Her heart continued to beat for some time, but her brain was mortally wounded--she was in essence a goner.

You can't today arrest BR for what he did in 1996 as a 9 yr and 11mo old child. I know people wish they could see the handcuffs and a perp walk, but that isn't going to happen. The Boulder DAs office could have brought charges against JR & PR for the obstruction of justice and endangerment, but they didn't and now it's too late.

But it wasn't really a "murder" in the sense that (IMO) intent was not part of this. Yes, the R's intended to cover it up and stage the scene to throw off investigators. Yes, that is a crime because it's illegal. But *IF* Burke inflicted the head bash, it's not considered murder. He may have intended to hit her, but legally-speaking he couldn't form intent to kill.

Madeline - do not be upset that they call this death a homicide. Homicide simply means that the death was caused by another and the term does not indicate intent. An accident which causes death is still a homicide if someone other than the victim caused the accident. And you are correct, in CO in 1996, a child under the age of 10 was considered to young to form the requisite intent to commit murder - even if they intended to kill.

 

[asyousay]

I am sure both parents were angry with Burke but he was all they had left and Patsy clearly wasn't up to the task of having another baby either for obvious reasons. She strikes me as the type that if she had been fully healthy and younger she would of tried for a replacement IMO

 

[Madeleine74]

I truly think most parents would forgive one child who they dearly love for injuring another child who they dearly love, even if it led to that child's death. It's easy to look inward from outside the family and think "well I could never forgive anything like that," but if you have children and you love them, throwing one of them under the proverbial bus for what was, in essence, likely a moment of rage might feel impossible to do.

 

[Tortoise]

Can anyone please give their thoughts on where JR was when he went missing for about an hour after the body was discovered? I think I have missed this information before. Thanks.

Haven't given much thought yet to where he was but I can imagine what he was hoping by the time he returned. That the police would be packing up - nothing here to see folks - the phone call never came between 8 and 10, go set up a national search for JonBenet and the kidnapper. Meanwhile he will set to work to remove JonBenet's body from the house, probably in a suitcase so it doesn't stand out when packed on the plane. I think he became very agitated because it wasn't going to plan. The police could immediately smell this was not a kidnapping and were not leaving. That is why he knew he had to 'find' JonBenet, not anyone else, to give himself the opportunity to express 'shock'.

By the way, thank you very much to PositiveLight for transcribing the 1st episode.

ETA Just seen Boodles post further down from yours, vis-a-vis the suitcase. Similar thoughts I see.

 

[kaykay543]

I wish they had shown the CNN clip where Patsy says "keep your babies close..." and both parents are in the shot and John is mouthing it before Patsy even says it. I think they would have had a field day with that. It's strange that there are different angles available, I am guessing the one without John is the way it first aired on TV.

I have always wondered why no one has ever called them on that back in the day. You can clearly see John mouthing the words shes saying. Reminds me of high school drama class where they are trying to teach you not to mouth the words the other actor is saying.

Other things that have always hit me wrong:

JR and PR left the house before her body was removed. If that was my daughter no way would I have left until my daughter left.

They picked Dec 25th as her day of death

No one said anything when the time for the ransom phone call came and passed

 

[Madeleine74]

Madeline - do not be upset that they call this death a homicide. Homicide simply means that the death was caused by another and the term does not indicate intent. An accident which causes death is still a homicide if someone other than the victim caused the accident. And you are correct, in CO in 1996, a child under the age of 10 was considered to young to form the requisite intent to commit murder - even if they intended to kill.

Okay then I object to the word "murder." Murder requires intent. The only intent was to cover this up and try to make it look like something else. That's heinous, absolutely, but the actual striking of the head was not murder, in the legal sense.

 

[Boodles]

The more I'm watching the sicker I am feeling. Not because she was this beautiful little girl(but she was truly beautiful and had that little smile that just steals your heart because you can just see she was this little spunky child) but just because she was so little, and her death, for which there will never be true justice, turned into such a circus. It's all such a cluster ####. It's just not right, it's not fair. Their wealth, their community status should have played no role in how it was handled. It makes me so damn angry. Seeing her little brain, bruised...I just can't stop the tears from coming.

IF BR did this, I am not sure PR could have not been immensely resentful to him, so I do struggle with that.

This is like one of those trick paintings where you can see several different things in the same image.

“Oh, what a tangled web we weave...when first we practice to deceive.”

It sure did turn into a cluster****. I don't know who did what, and certainly not why. But I believe for sure that the Ramseys lied and deflected. It just made things worse. I'm probably naive, but I just think it's better to be honest.

But it wasn't me who was afraid of a) going to prison, b) being seen as a murderer/pedophile/freak by the community, c) having my remaining child removed from me, or d) some combination of a, b and c. They must have had their (misguided) reasons.

 

[Tortoise]

When they were discussing the suitcase last night in the program, I thought maybe John was going to attempt to put JBRs body into the suitcase and take her away. But he couldn't get the suitcase up and out of the window and into the window well and LE was swarming.

Attempting that would be pretty bold (and horrible planning, i.e., not getting rid of the body before calling 911), but I can't help but think there was a thought and possible attempt to remove her body from the house via the suitcase, but the plan backfired. That would account for John being MIA for awhile, trying to figure out how to remove her from the basement.

I wonder if they tested the suitcase for JBRs DNA or signs of decomposition.

I've read somewhere JonBenet's DNA was on items inside the suitcase. I think it was on a pillow cover and something else.


ETA, No I was wrong. This is what I saw -
"Was JBR Placed in Suitcase? There is conflicting fiber evidence suggesting that fibers from the sham and duvet inside the suitcase were found on JBR's body. Some have speculated someone attempted to place JBR inside the suitcase to remove her (dead or alive) from the house." http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682512/The Basement

 

[No it's not]

PR was always very adamant (..) about scrubbing her daughter off any marks the day before a pageant. What is this mark?? Unusual location for a stamp mark IMO. Almost looks like a healing kind of a bruise?

1:18 in the CBS video, capture:

http://tvgo.xfinity.com/watch/The-C...5/The-Case-Of:-JonBenet-Ramsey,-Part-1/videos

 

[Katharine]

I haven't researched enough on the flashlight yet, however, if you were covering for your son who used the flashlight, and took the time to wipe it clean down to the batteries, why not go the extra little step and put it away in a drawer in the garage or a upstairs somewhere??

Several of these types of situations makes one ponder and ponder. Um why take the time to wipe off the batteries. What was the purpose behind each thing they did. Or did things get forgotten or over looked due to not thinking clearly...their adrenaline had to be running high. Obviously no one saw the bowl of pineapple and ice tea setting out.

 

[keyleigh]

I just finished watching. BR will be named I think. PR and JR covered it up and protected BR because they were scared of what secrets he might share about what went on in that house. Clearly JBR had been abused in the past and it wouldn't surprise me if BR was acting out things done to him on his sister and it snowballed. J and P HAD to cover for him to protect the abuser.

All my opinion etc.

 

[Kay0315]

In the clips from the call, I could hear Burke's "what did you find" very clearly, the other comments I couldn't make out. Patsy was definitely saying something including what seemed like it could be the word "Jesus", and John's voice can also be heard though, but I couldn't understand a word of it.

Maybe with a nice pair of headphones it'd be easier to make out?

I was using my TV audio headphones and heard strange noises after the hang up, but I think without the power of suggestion, no one could have picked up specific phrases from that static! Just my opinion.

 

[No it's not]

I've read somewhere JonBenet's DNA was on items inside the suitcase. I think it was on a pillow cover and something else.


ETA, No I was wrong. This is what I saw -
"Was JBR Placed in Suitcase? There is conflicting fiber evidence suggesting that fibers from the sham and duvet inside the suitcase were found on JBR's body. Some have speculated someone attempted to place JBR inside the suitcase to remove her (dead or alive) from the house." http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682512/The Basement

Do you recall, where you read this?

Thanks, Nin

 

[InstantProof]

Several of these types of situations makes one ponder and ponder. Um why take the time to wipe off the batteries. What was the purpose behind each thing they did. Or did things get forgotten or over looked due to not thinking clearly...their adrenaline had to be running high. Obviously no one saw the bowl of pineapple and ice tea setting out.

It's possible they didn't know the flashlight was the weapon, and used it to stage in the dark. Then wiped it down and left it out in case anyone reported seeing a flashlight being used (a neighbor did say they saw moving light).

 

[BOESP]

You could set up a machine that would hit glass panes all day long with the same force from the exact same angle. You will never get two panes of glass to break identically. What is important is that the demonstration showed:

- a rectangular displaced piece that matched the size of the flashlight head
- severe cracking of the skull
- skin was not broken
- a 10 year old could indeed muster the force to cause this head wound

Maybe so but scientific results can be repeated and get the same results each time. If not, something is yet missing. Glass and a human skull and tissue are totally unrelated.

If the recreated fracture only ran from impact point to the posterior base of the skull and did not run forward from the impact point then I have some doubts. :shame:


I also assume that was a synthetic wig and not human hair. That makes a difference too. So does the fact as mentioned above that there was no "brain" inside that skull. I also trust otg's observation that the displaced area is cylindrical and not rectangle.

But we'll see what they come up with.