The Case, so far...

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Gord: Here's another article from the Websleuths Archive - posted by Calikid on the media thread:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1847879.ece
Jane Tanner's report of seeing child being carried away

That is an early story in May before the official one was released in June. It does not mention Jane Tanner by name, but quotes a police source. That story was confirmed a month later when the McCanns said they were 'glad' the story was being released.

Thanks - you know thinking about it - it is a pretty strong eye witness account - that fits in with the timeline - now we can debate the semantics of the detail - but she either saw something or she is out and out lying

If she isnt lying - then who was the fman and who was the girl if it wasnt Madeline .
 
Gord: Here's another article from the Websleuths Archive - posted by Calikid on the media thread:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1847879.ece
Jane Tanner's report of seeing child being carried away

That is an early story in May before the official one was released in June. It does not mention Jane Tanner by name, but quotes a police source. That story was confirmed a month later when the McCanns said they were 'glad' the story was being released.

I saw this from the same article

"Despite the three week delay hundreds of people have called police with information since the description was released on Friday night. The man is white, approximately 35 to 40 years old, of medium build and 5ft 10ins tall. He had short hair and was wearing a dark jacket, light beige trousers and dark shoes.
At least one witness has reported seeing a person carrying a child close to the church in Praia da Luz, about 700 metres from the Ocean Club. Mrs McCann and her husband, Gerry, yesterday made one of their regular visits to the Catholic service at the Our Lady of Light church where prayers were said for the safe return of their daughter."

I have never seen this before - I am misreading it or is the article implying that another witness might have come forward after the event .

I have always found it a bit strange why there was no other eye witnesses that night to anything

I mean a girl dissapeared - Even if it were gerry/tapas who hid the body , they would have done it that night - she would have to have been moved somewhere - but nada - nobody saw a thing - that we know .

that posibilty of the second witness is interesting
 
Barnaby...no links. Morag reported it here on WS.

I do believe Jane is the one most likely to succumb to the pressure of the Tapas Pact of Silencers.

Hi, I am trying to find where I found this idea- I would always provide links when possible...But I am expecting houseguests and won't be able to do be online for a while. But I will search!
 
I guess he would be what he seemed to be: a father taking his sleeping child home from the creche. It would be helpful to know what the path from creche to apartment 5A is, and which way he was heading.

But thinking more about the credibility of Tanner's account (which I agree with you, does sound pretty credible after reading that early article), here's a thought exercise:

1) the article says Tanner was arriving late to dinner (NOT that she had gone on a check of the children). I'd say that 9:30 pm is very late to arrive for dinner. But, ok.

2) the article says she "saw the man close to the open window of the bedroom" which would put bundleman on the far side of the Tapas bar, by the parking lot, not in the little lane in front of the apartments.

3) the article also says the child appeared to be asleep (i.e., no struggle).

4) is this the same trip to the Tapas Bar during which Tanner also saw Gerry McCann & Jeremy Wilkins chatting though they didn't see her? My understanding of the layout of the place is that the only way to get into Ocean Club is via the reception door, so Jane Tanner is walking around that corner of the building by Maddy's window and down the street to the reception door. If Gerry & Jeremy were standing anywhere along the path between Tapas Bar and apartment, Jane must have walked within feet of them. There's only one path here. But it was dark and the two men might've been deep in a conversation and didn't notice her. I can buy all this.

4) If all the foregoing is true, then Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins were VERY CLOSE to the apartment at the exact moment that someone was grabbing Madeleine out of her bed. If they didn't hear or notice anything, then we have to assume that whatever happened went down without screams or scuffles. Plus there's the fact that Tanner saw no struggle. And we have Madeleine being a child whose own mother describes her as "hysterical".

So if we believe the Tapas 9's own account of things we have to conclude either:

a) an abductor was able to subdue Madeleine with threats ... which is something you can do with a 4-year-old but can't do with a 2-year-old (which could explain why Maddy was taken and not the younger ones).

b) an abductor somehow rendered Madeleine unconscious. Hit her? That's a risky thing to do and doesn't seem to be part of the usual pedophile 'MO'. Drugged her? Maybe pedophiles carry around hypos full of benadryl these days?

or

c) Madeleine was drugged by her parents.

Sticking with Tapas 9's own account of things ("We did not drug our children"), then that means Maddy must have been threatened, drugged, or beaten into submission by her abductor.

So the McCanns obviously want us to believe that this is what happened -- it's the only possible conclusionn based on their account of things. So, are they plausible? I'm not sure.

all good points - you know that you only have to have moved on by a few seconds to miss someone

The last check by Gerry was at 9,05 - ( remember he had that sense that maybe someone was in the room )

anyway Gerry leaves at 9.05 and meets Wilkins by the alley - they chat for about 10 / 15 minutes - which was the max I think - this puts Gerry at leaving the alley 9.20 /9.25 latest to return to the Tapas -.

If Tanners arival at the Tapas is correct at 9.30 - then it only takes 5 minutes max to walk from the appt - She say leaves by the front door - on the other side of the alleyway at say 9,20 /9,25 - notices the man with child walking away from the parking area - turns round the corner and sees gerry and Tanner movng away from converstion. - She might have seen them , but they might not have seen her .

Now what went on in the appt - I can only guess - I know that once toddlers are asleep they can sleep deeply, the abductor could have picked Maddy up and then handed her to a colleague through the window ( hence the open window from the inside ) -

Maybe he was drugged by the abductor - if he was in there at 9,05 anyway he would have had 10 /15 minutes in there before she was got out ( if you go with the Tanner sighting )

Now it is all theory and trying to fit in with the timings - but maybe , maybe
 
Thanks - you know thinking about it - it is a pretty strong eye witness account - that fits in with the timeline - now we can debate the semantics of the detail - but she either saw something or she is out and out lying

If she isnt lying - then who was the fman and who was the girl if it wasnt Madeline .

I guess he would be what he seemed to be: a father taking his sleeping child home from the creche. It would be helpful to know what the path from creche to apartment 5A is, and which way he was heading. But thinking more about the credibility of Tanner's account (which I agree with you, does sound pretty credible in that early article) has caused me to consider a small number of options. Here's the thinking:

1) according to the article Tanner says she was arriving late to dinner (NOT that she had gone on a check of the children) at 9:30 pm.

2) the article says she "saw the man close to the open window of the bedroom" which would put bundleman on the far side of the Tapas bar, by the parking lot, not in the little lane that goes nowhere.

3) the article also says the child appeared to be asleep (i.e., no struggle).

4) this is the same trip to the Tapas Bar during which Tanner also saw Gerry McCann & Jeremy Wilkins chatting though they didn't see her, as Gerry says he had checked on the kids at 9:30 then bumped into Wilkins for a chat. My understanding of the layout of the place is that the only way to get into Ocean Club is via the reception door, so Jane Tanner is walking around that corner of the building by Maddy's window and down the street to the reception door. If Gerry & Jeremy were standing anywhere along the path between Tapas Bar and apartment, Jane must have walked within feet of them. There's only one path here. But it was dark and the two men might've been deep in a conversation and didn't notice her. I can buy all this.

4) If all the foregoing is true, then Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins were VERY CLOSE to the apartment at the exact moment that someone was grabbing Madeleine out of her bed. If they didn't hear or notice anything, then we have to assume that whatever happened went down without screams or a struggle. Plus there's the fact that Tanner saw no struggle. And yet we have Madeleine being a child whose own mother describes her as "hysterical".

So if we believe the Tapas 9's own account of things we have to conclude either:

a) an abductor was able to subdue Madeleine with threats ... which is something that MIGHT work with a 4-year-old but won't work with a 2-year-old as they're not old enough to understand a threat (which could explain why Maddy was taken and not the younger ones).

b) an abductor somehow rendered Madeleine unconscious. Beat her? That's a risky thing to do and doesn't seem to be part of the usual pedophile MO. Drugged her? Maybe pedophiles carry around hypos full of benadryl these days?

c) An undrugged Madeleine slept through the whole thing.

d) Madeleine was drugged by her parents.

Sticking with Tapas 9's own account of things ("We did not drug our children"), then that means Maddy must have been threatened, drugged, or beaten into submission by her abductor, or else simply slept through the whole thing. The McCanns obviously expect us to believe one of these scenarios, as they are the ONLY ones consistent with their account of things. What is the plausibility of these explanations?

* a "hysterical" 4-year-old can sleep through being picked up and carried away by a stranger.

* a "hysterical" 4-year-old can be threatened quickly into passivity by something a stranger says to her ("I'll kill you/mommy/cuddle-cat if you so much as sqeak"). At the very least, you're going to need a person who speaks pretty good english.

* pedophile abductors sometimes beat children unconscious before taking them away.

* pedophile abductors sometimes use injectable drugs to subdue their victims.
 
3)

* a "hysterical" 4-year-old can sleep through being picked up and carried away by a stranger.

* a "hysterical" 4-year-old can be threatened quickly into passivity by something a stranger says to her ("I'll kill you/mommy/cuddle-cat if you so much as sqeak"). At the very least, you're going to need a person who speaks pretty good english.

* pedophile abductors sometimes beat children unconscious before taking them away.

* pedophile abductors sometimes use injectable drugs to subdue their victims.

I dont know if you have got kids - I have 3 . Sometimes when they are asleep - they will sleep through anything - I been to a wedding with my 3 year old - who sleeps in her push chair whilst a band plays and a party goes on. I have taken my sleeping child out of a car seat into the house - undressed her - put on jammies and in to bed and she still doesnt wake .

Maddy could have been sound asleep - an abductor picks her up very carefully and then hands her out of the window -

or as you say she could have been given an injection - all possible .

If she was side awake then maked it a lot harder - but remeber Gerry had just checked on her and they were all fast asleep
 
all good points - you know that you only have to have moved on by a few seconds to miss someone

The last check by Gerry was at 9,05 - ( remember he had that sense that maybe someone was in the room )

anyway Gerry leaves at 9.05 and meets Wilkins by the alley - they chat for about 10 / 15 minutes - which was the max I think - this puts Gerry at leaving the alley 9.20 /9.25 latest to return to the Tapas -.

If Tanners arival at the Tapas is correct at 9.30 - then it only takes 5 minutes max to walk from the appt - She say leaves by the front door - on the other side of the alleyway at say 9,20 /9,25 - notices the man with child walking away from the parking area - turns round the corner and sees gerry and Tanner movng away from converstion. - She might have seen them , but they might not have seen her .

Now what went on in the appt - I can only guess - I know that once toddlers are asleep they can sleep deeply, the abductor could have picked Maddy up and then handed her to a colleague through the window ( hence the open window from the inside ) -

Maybe he was drugged by the abductor - if he was in there at 9,05 anyway he would have had 10 /15 minutes in there before she was got out ( if you go with the Tanner sighting )

Now it is all theory and trying to fit in with the timings - but maybe , maybe

Oops I got my time wrong for Gerry's check. You're right, good catch. :) So ... Did he leave the apartment at 9:05, or leave the Tapas Bar to make his check at 9:05? That would be maybe a 10-minute difference in the timeline (5 minutes to walk to the apartment + 5 minutes to do the check).

Well anyway, I think your timeline which is more accurate still puts him and Jeremy near the apartment at the time of the snatching.

If this all turns out to be exactly what did happen, man wouldn't you be kicking yourself for being that close and not preventing it?

As for sleeping toddlers, I know what you mean. My daughter slept through the July 4th fireworks display every year until she was 6 years old. Still, I wonder if being picked up by a stranger wouldn't trigger something? ... I really don't know.

I have to say, the abduction scenario is becoming more plausible in my mind, though in order for me to buy it I'd have to believe the kids were drugged and that the abductor(s) knew this. They could have overheard a conversation, gotten gossip from a crech employee, and/or observed the parents' neglectful behavior over a period of time.

Given the foot traffic on the street (people going to dinner at 9:30 pm!) and the frequency of parental checks, the abductor had to be very confident that he (she?) could pull this off quickly and with a minimum of fuss and bother.
 
to hcc2007 and gord,
Which timelines do you think are credible?Is it a certain newspaper because some are such tabloids? Your reference to Jane Tanner arriving at 930PM is yet another new one to me. My problem with the whereabouts of the tapas 9 is that there are so many conflicting timelines.

Hasn't Gerry admitted to not going into the apartment now, so that could widen the gap if an abduction took place?

Some inconsistencies I found:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=481890&in_page_id=1770
This one has: OBrien arrives 9:25 due to sick child and left table to 950
but it says Jane is “late”

From Times Online October 9, 2007 "It says that Russell O’Brien, a hospital consultant from Exeter, left the restaurant at 9.35pm and returned at 10pm, just minutes before Mrs McCann discovered that Madeleine was missing"

And then other posters quoting earlier articles have said Jane arriving at bar at 915.

Some articles point to Jane and O'Brien each arriving at different times.

The only consistency I see is that Gerry and Kate arrive at 830 and the Paynes and grandma arrive at 855.

Also, is there a link to where Jane talks about pink pajamas?The May 5th article http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=452633&in_page_id=1770
snip...But despite a massive search throughout the night by police, sniffer dogs and dozens of holidaymakers, there has been no sign of Madeleine, wearing white pyjamas when her parents put her to bed with twins Amelie and Sean in the bougainvillea-clad apartment. ….snip…
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I can't find one place where Jane has actually been interviewed - probably because the police told her not to talk. But then they leaked her whole story, so it's rather odd, unless her own lawyer told her not to talk about it so she isn't implicated as an accomplice in some way?

These timelines are very complicated. So many people say they "arrived late" - but what's late? 9 p.m.? And then some of them say they immediately got up to "check" the room(s). It was like musical chairs, and if they were imbibing in wine, I doubt they could all remember every detail, which is part of the problem.

*sigh*

When I go on vacation, my whole family eats together, and then we go swimming or go the room and watch TV. I realize that's boring, but after reading about the McCann's "vacation," I'm wondering just how much rest they were planning to get, between the running and the childcare and walking around during dinner. :doh:
 
I dont know if you have got kids - I have 3 . Sometimes when they are asleep - they will sleep through anything - I been to a wedding with my 3 year old - who sleeps in her push chair whilst a band plays and a party goes on. I have taken my sleeping child out of a car seat into the house - undressed her - put on jammies and in to bed and she still doesnt wake .

Maddy could have been sound asleep - an abductor picks her up very carefully and then hands her out of the window -

or as you say she could have been given an injection - all possible .

If she was side awake then maked it a lot harder - but remeber Gerry had just checked on her and they were all fast asleep

gord- I have a kid just like yours, sleeping through everything. And I have another one, who will wake up at any sound.

But I doubt Madeleine was one of the children that would sleep through everything. Simply because neither Kate nor Gerry have said that she was. THey said the twins were sound sleepers, but never Madeleine. And then, the granny shot them in the foot by saying that Madeleine would have screamed the place down, so she thought she was sedated.

The thought of an abductor standing by her bedside and sedating her is about the same to me as imagining Jon Benet Ramsey eating pineapple in the middle of the night with an intruder. (Sorry to bring up that case, I just had to)
 
to hcc2007 and gord,
Which timelines do you think are credible?Is it a certain newspaper because some are such tabloids? Your reference to Jane Tanner arriving at 930PM is yet another new one to me. My problem with the whereabouts of the tapas 9 is that there are so many conflicting timelines.

Hasn't Gerry admitted to not going into the apartment now, so that could widen the gap if an abduction took place?

Some inconsistencies I found:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=481890&in_page_id=1770
This one has: OBrien arrives 9:25 due to sick child and left table to 950
but it says Jane is “late”

From Times Online October 9, 2007 "It says that Russell O’Brien, a hospital consultant from Exeter, left the restaurant at 9.35pm and returned at 10pm, just minutes before Mrs McCann discovered that Madeleine was missing"

And then other posters quoting earlier articles have said Jane arriving at bar at 915.

Some articles point to Jane and O'Brien each arriving at different times.

The only consistency I see is that Gerry and Kate arrive at 830 and the Paynes and grandma arrive at 855.

Also, is there a link to where Jane talks about pink pajamas?The May 5th article http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=452633&in_page_id=1770
snip...But despite a massive search throughout the night by police, sniffer dogs and dozens of holidaymakers, there has been no sign of Madeleine, wearing white pyjamas when her parents put her to bed with twins Amelie and Sean in the bougainvillea-clad apartment. ….snip…
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Hm ... the article I referred to was posted about 10 postings above this, and appeared in the "Times Online" May 27, 2007. Here's the link:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1847879.ece

It says 9:30 and pink pyjamas. But I know what you mean, by May 27th the story might already have changed a few times.

Who knows?
 
McCanns & their supporters were resentful & frustrated that Tanner's statement had been taken but never released. Three weeks after 3 May, governmental pressure was put on the PJ to publish the sighting to the public to help in the search for Madeleine. By herself, Jane Tanner under advice of counsel, did not & would not repeat what she had told police.
 
McCanns & their supporters were resentful & frustrated that Tanner's statement had been taken but never released. Three weeks after 3 May, governmental pressure was put on the PJ to publish the sighting to the public to help in the search for Madeleine. By herself, Jane Tanner under advice of counsel, did not & would not repeat what she had told police.
Thanks for the info.

So then it is not Jane Tanner who changed the story several times as far as we can prove. The different versions may have come from press and L.E. in official and unofficial leaks to the press. It sounds like there is no way, at this time, to verify that Jane's story ever changed at all if we have no news interviews with Jane herself.

So now I wonder how it came about that people are questioning her truthfulness based on her story having changed when we do not even know for certain if it ever did change.

Interesting set of circumstances.
 
Thanks for the info.

So then it is not Jane Tanner who changed the story several times as far as we can prove. The different versions may have come from press and L.E. in official and unofficial leaks to the press. It sounds like there is no way, at this time, to verify that Jane's story ever changed at all if we have no news interviews with Jane herself.

So now I wonder how it came about that people are questioning her truthfulness based on her story having changed when we do not even know for certain if it ever did change.

Interesting set of circumstances.

Docwho - I think you are absolutely right about Tanner. One of the most frustrating things about this case is that you hear from no one but the McCanns. So the timelines are completely twisted. There is a very good article, written early on, by SOL, a Portugese paper, where the author of the article actually did some investigation and quoted real names. It is where the first mention of Jeremy Wilkins comes in.

Getting quality reporting on this case is near impossible. I think now, it is just a waiting game to see what happens with the new searches, video scanning and DNA results. At least (according to the media anyway) there is some searching going on again.

Salem
 
Docwho - I think you are absolutely right about Tanner. One of the most frustrating things about this case is that you hear from no one but the McCanns. So the timelines are completely twisted. There is a very good article, written early on, by SOL, a Portugese paper, where the author of the article actually did some investigation and quoted real names. It is where the first mention of Jeremy Wilkins comes in.

Getting quality reporting on this case is near impossible. I think now, it is just a waiting game to see what happens with the new searches, video scanning and DNA results. At least (according to the media anyway) there is some searching going on again.

Salem

Yeah, but ... all we'll get is the salacious stuff filtered through 'secret sources', told by a Portugeue press that might be slightly biased against the McCanns, and interpretations from a lot of sincere-but-ill-informed bloggers.

So actually it's possible that the public will never know the actual facts of the case. Do we know what Portuguese law says about CLOSED cases? They might keep that info just as secret as they keep open cases. Because ... after all ... you never know when a case might open up again.

Frustrating!
 
One of the important things to remember about Portugese justice is the fact that they were a dictatorship under Salazar from 1932 - 1968. I believe the secrecy is a holdover from that time and has little to do with real justice.

Just a simple aside, carry on.
 
One of the important things to remember about Portugese justice is the fact that they were a dictatorship under Salazar from 1932 - 1968. I believe the secrecy is a holdover from that time and has little to do with real justice.

Just a simple aside, carry on.

Actually, that's useful to know. There's only one innocent party in this whole terrible situation: Madeleine.
 
I'm not saying the Portuguese should revamp their system to be like the American, because obviously we leave a lot to be desired sometimes. But I think the secrecy laws have definitely hampered a successful resolution of this case.
 
Martin Smith & his wife plus Jane Tanner both saw & described bundleman. Until they are totally discredited, I accept he exists. There was no blanket missing from 5A. He was openly crossing the street, walking urgently but not at a trot nor running. He is undisguised & must have brought his own blanket. The child was only partly covered. What would he have said if accosted and questioned? He probably would have kept on walking and at most, pled no English. He seems unconcerned about all of the questionable aspects of his actions or his "caper" and only concerned about getting to a destination quickly. Maybe his act was defensible in his mind or maybe he was an unusually brazen kidnapper. However, there were two burglaries right before the McCanns took residency and the intruders used keys in the front door to enter!
 
People were collecting their children from the creche which kept them until 11pm. I very much doubt that a kidnapper would not have a car waiting & would simply walk away with a child.
Burglary is a hugely different crime to abducting a child & the incidents would not neccessarily be connected. In fact I would say that if a child abduction was planned than the burglaries would not have been carried out in advance by the same people, that would alert security to intensify watches!
 
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