The Chair Blocking the Basement Door

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Could the chair be the object that caused Six Year Old Murder Victim JonBenet Ramsey's skull & brain injuries?

If JonBenet Ramsey (and Burke Ramsey) were victims of a pattern of violent behavior (violent behavior that is not perpetual nor is the violence perpetual) the continuous objective of the abuser(s) is to conceal all violent behavior. The purpose of action of the abuser(s) is to hide the violent behavior, and, injuries caused by the violent behavior(s). Abusive Parents also dress their abused child(ren) in oversized clothing in an attempt to conceal abuse inflicted injuries. Parents that abuse their children often do not seek medical care in the event of causing significant injury/injuries to the child. Parents that abuse their children often delay medical care in the event of causing significant injury/injuries to the child.

Not seeking medical care / delaying medical care are ways that abusers hide and conceal child abuse.

Abuse / Violent behavior is not designated to one particular race, sex, socio economic status. Poor and wealthy individuals are equally probably to be abusers. Risk factors that increase physical abuse are inappropriate expectations of children, punitive childrearing habits, children with delays/difficulties (behavioral, physical, developmental). Abuse triggers include toilet accidetns and misbehavior of child(ren). Children that are suspected of being abused by parents/caregivers are likely to have injuries in concealed hidden areas (i.e., genitalia). Also, children that are suspected of being abused will often have injuries that adequate supervision of the child should have prevented (i.e., a six year old child should be able to walk up and down the stairs independently with adequate parent/caregiver supervision).

When attempting to determine if a child is a victim of abuse, "control marks" (ligature marks) on the child's neck, forearms, legs, writs are looked for. As are skin injuries such as burns, abrasions. Determining evidence that the abuser held/attempted to hold their victim in a certain position during the abuse incident. Home environmental factors are also important (money, loss of job, chronic illness, are the parents' expectations of the child in regards to age what they should be).

Is it possible that, an alleged, Cycle of Violence in The Ramsey Colorado Home was reaching it's peak between 12-23&12-25? For JonBent Ramsey to have a closed skull linear injury with displaced fragments, her skull injuries came from contact injury. Could the velocity of The Chair striking JonBenet's head cause JB's Non Accidental Head Injury?

Multiple & bilateral skull fractures indicate inflicted injury abuse - especially when the skull has been separated by 3mm or more (Craniocerebral trauma in the child abuse syndrome).

There are many skull fractures that do no cause death https://www.utmb.edu/pedi_ed/CORE/Abuse/page_08.htm
and
http://www.healthline.com/health/skull-fracture#diagnosis5
and
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healthlibrary/conditions/pediatrics/head_injury_in_children_90,P02604/

Many skull fractures do not lead to death.

Finally, people that have had severe head injuries report losing urine & rectal functions - however, remained alive (and are still alive). Is it possible that the urine found in the basement was not where JonBenet was murdered - it was the place where she was struck in the head causing her to lose urine functions? Is it possible that JonBenet was hit in the head in her bedroom, causing her to lose rectal functions - then she lost her urine functions in the basement?

"Then 7 months later I fell on the ice in my driveway. This time I did loose consciousness. Woke only to peal myself out of a frozen puddle & get myself into my home. This is where I found that I lost bladder and rectal control." from http://www.brainline.org/content/2009/06/tbi-basics_pageall.html

Was the chair moved because it was the murder weapon - being the murder weapon JR was trying to decide where to put it? Was he attempting to make it look like a "tool" children would use to unlatch the WC door? Was he thinking "hiding the chair in plane site" would be best?
 
In Kolar's book, he clearly and carefully expresses when he is conveying facts and when he is offering his opinion. I am taking what he states as facts as just that. I have no trouble understanding when he is theorizing and I don't necessarily agree with all his ideas. I also have read Patsy's statements and see where she has changed and contorted the facts over time to fit with what evidence is presented to her. Which is why I now have come to the conclusion that Patsy may or may not be giving a factual account any time she has given a statement, one must look for factual evidence to either corroborate or contradict her. On the other hand, I have not found Kolar's statement of facts to have been refuted by anyone knowledgeable. So unless there is evidence that suggests Kolar stated he learned during his investigation is untrue, I will go with that. Which is, IMO, a undisputed fact, not theory.

You couldn't "refute" John Douglas all the same. Is he just as all-knowing as Kolar then?
 
My problem is....I just don't even listen to what they say...but it's pretty interesting. I think focusing on gifts, is counterproductive. Anywho thanks for the info.
Is the cigar box something that nobody claimed? Are there any pics of that?
 
MsFox,
JR said he personally relocated the suitcase from JAR's bedroom down to the basement. The R's employed a housekeeper to do that kind of stuff. Housework was not on JR's domestic todo list. e.g. the housekeeper moved Patsy's painting equipment from upstairs down to the basement. On the day of the Ramseys' Christmas party, I took the paint tote downstairs.....by Linda Hoffmann-Pugh


If it was not JonBenet who opened the gifts, why is Patsy saying she opened them?





June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Presents in Wine Cellar)

mmm, Smit leading JR on ...



June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth (Presents in Wine Cellar)




.
My problem is....I just don't even listen to what they say...but it's pretty interesting. I think focusing on gifts, is counterproductive. Anywho thanks for the info.
Is the cigar box something that nobody claimed? Are there any pics of that?
 
My problem is....I just don't even listen to what they say...but it's pretty interesting. I think focusing on gifts, is counterproductive. Anywho thanks for the info.
Is the cigar box something that nobody claimed? Are there any pics of that?

MsFox,
I know, who to believe? According to Kolar the gifts are the big clue!

.
 
Is the cigar box something that nobody claimed?

There were two cigar boxes down in the hellhole....John tried to distance them from the Romeos but admitted that the Cubans were his. Why?

Patsy told investigators when asked about the cigars that they didn't smoke even though an obvious lie and would only take about five minutes to find out.

On Fleet's last trip to the basement, he focused on two things.... checking out the piece of tape and a box of cigars. My money is on the box of Romeos.


It brings up an interesting question....

*In Brad Pitt's voice*

What's in the box?!?




The cigar boxes are probably the most overlooked pieces of evidence in the case. They don't help prop up specific theories so they are conveniently ignored.
 
icedtea4me,
I forget whether Kolar relates it as a first or second person account. Either way he is stating BR is taking responsibility for opening the gifts.

How about backing this up with a source (i.e. page # and/or chapter title)?

I still wonder why Kolar refers to them as Christmas Gifts, if they are Birthday Gifts?*snip*

Technically, Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.
 
My problem is....I just don't even listen to what they say...but it's pretty interesting. I think focusing on gifts, is counterproductive. Anywho thanks for the info.
Is the cigar box something that nobody claimed? Are there any pics of that?
The only picture of cigar boxes that I know of are in the following photo which came from one of the tabs. Near the lower left corner you can see the familiar border on one box. There might possibly be another cigar box stacked just under that one, and something on top of them both that looks like the plain, wooden box that Cubans often come in.

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • Wine Cellar.jpg
    Wine Cellar.jpg
    31.1 KB · Views: 808
How about backing this up with a source (i.e. page # and/or chapter title)?
(And to think, I've been accused of being pedantic. This is reaching the point of bikeshedding.)

I cited Kolar's writing about this here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ing-the-Basement-Door&p=13411620#post13411620

I gave you your preferred "yes or no" answer here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ing-the-Basement-Door&p=13413723#post13413723

UKGuy has made his recollection as clear as possible and an explanation of the semantics of his terminology here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ing-the-Basement-Door&p=13418098#post13418098

...and here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Basement-Door/page10&p=13418036#post13418036

Still you persist. The only thing that hasn't been provided to you so far is the chapter and page numbers (which you are asking for now). Here's a hint: It occurs just preceding the photo of the presents shown in FF (James Kolar). More precisely, in my hard copy it is Chapter-31, pp. 339-340.
 
*snip*Still you persist. The only thing that hasn't been provided to you so far is the chapter and page numbers (which you are asking for now). Here's a hint: It occurs just preceding the photo of the presents shown in FF (James Kolar). More precisely, in my hard copy it is Chapter-31, pp. 339-340.

Thank you.
 
Cuban cigars were illegal in the US maybe still are. In my day, when someone managed to smuggle some real Cubans into the country, it came with a piece of black tape made in Cuba on the packaging. No black tape, it was not a box of real Cubans. I have been yakking about this for years and no one noticed. I can't find anything online about it, I am going back to memories of the "real" Cuban trade as told to me by people who smoked them at the time and being shown the boxes. It was a 'thing". IMHO the Cubans made JR nervous because he thought he would be arrested for having them at all. Highly unlikely that the Feds would be called in to investigate the source of his Cubans but nonetheless. It went through his brain.

Once the box was out of the cellophane and black tape was removed, you either smoked one or replaced one with a cheaper cigar so that they could not be considered a "box" of Cubans. I kid you not. Enter Romeo and Julietta.

Whether that action would stand up in court as a defense? Who knows. But the 'street lawyers' thought this was a good plan.

No matter, once the tape was removed, it would be impossible to prove they weren't fakes made in Ecuador or Panama. The tape was for the ultimate purchaser's benefit.

Later, fake Cubans made in other countries started using black tape too in order to swindle people but either they didn't know they were swindled or didn't care, still good cigars, same plant, just not hand rolled by Cuban hands in Cuba.

Black tape over her mouth with no source? Yeah. It could have come from the box of Cubans.

Just saying. MHO and such.
 
MsFox,
I know, who to believe? According to Kolar the gifts are the big clue!

.


Well I suppose if he's a BDIA.... I could see why the gifts may come into play somehow. I suppose he's trying to say there was a fight over gifts or something?
I was always a IDI, leaner......until I saw the BR interview (s) and he said he remembered really wanting to either play or put together a toy he got. I found that strange, 20 years later you remember that, of course then the flash light and bat was brought up( which I find it also strange that Burke says it was his in Phil interview, but the lawsuit pleading, say IT WAS NOT owned by the R's.)
Anywho.....
My theory was....Parents sent them to bed (even though now JR, says he helped BR put together a toy, then sent him to bed) remember they had a long day, and was getting up early to fly out of town. So I don't buy that story.

I imagine they said no, go to bed.

Burke snuck out of bed, with that flashlight in hand and went downstairs to play, probably into the basement.
JonBenet woke up, found him playing and wanted to play too. (From the picture of JBR sitting outside his door, putting together the bead jewelry- you can tell he does not want her in his room, and she is being a little brat by sitting right outside the door- things even I used to do to bug the crap out of my older brother)
So now you have both kids up....and Burke probably knows he will get in trouble cause he's the older one...and JBR who is that little bratty sister, was probably telling him, "well I'll go tell on you if you don't let me play!!"

BR is frustrated....so he leads her to the kitchen with the promise of her favorite food "milk and pineapple". Probably thinking that would pacify her. She takes a couple bites, and goes back to play....this time he gets really mad....maybe he pushes her through the door, she starts to scream out, he out of reflex swings the flashlight to shut her up, hit her in the head.

Goes back to playing thinking JBR is faking, pokes her a few times with the end of the train track.
Parents discover body and do the rest??? I can't buy that scenario. I just will never believe that a parent could do the rest of what was done to her, even to protect the other child.

So to me BDIA makes complete sense in that, the parents would for sure try to cover that up.
 
Well I suppose if he's a BDIA.... I could see why the gifts may come into play somehow. I suppose he's trying to say there was a fight over gifts or something?
I was always a IDI, leaner......until I saw the BR interview (s) and he said he remembered really wanting to either play or put together a toy he got. I found that strange, 20 years later you remember that, of course then the flash light and bat was brought up( which I find it also strange that Burke says it was his in Phil interview, but the lawsuit pleading, say IT WAS NOT owned by the R's.)
Anywho.....
My theory was....Parents sent them to bed (even though now JR, says he helped BR put together a toy, then sent him to bed) remember they had a long day, and was getting up early to fly out of town. So I don't buy that story.

I imagine they said no, go to bed.

Burke snuck out of bed, with that flashlight in hand and went downstairs to play, probably into the basement.
JonBenet woke up, found him playing and wanted to play too. (From the picture of JBR sitting outside his door, putting together the bead jewelry- you can tell he does not want her in his room, and she is being a little brat by sitting right outside the door- things even I used to do to bug the crap out of my older brother)
So now you have both kids up....and Burke probably knows he will get in trouble cause he's the older one...and JBR who is that little bratty sister, was probably telling him, "well I'll go tell on you if you don't let me play!!"

BR is frustrated....so he leads her to the kitchen with the promise of her favorite food "milk and pineapple". Probably thinking that would pacify her. She takes a couple bites, and goes back to play....this time he gets really mad....maybe he pushes her through the door, she starts to scream out, he out of reflex swings the flashlight to shut her up, hit her in the head.

Goes back to playing thinking JBR is faking, pokes her a few times with the end of the train track.
Parents discover body and do the rest??? I can't buy that scenario. I just will never believe that a parent could do the rest of what was done to her, even to protect the other child.

So to me BDIA makes complete sense in that, the parents would for sure try to cover that up.

MsFox,
I reckon BR's TV interview made people realize that BDI was a possibility. Your theory is entirely possible, its a fascinating aspect to the case that we really have no details leading to JonBenet's death.

The flashlight might be the murder weapon then again it could have been used only during the staging part of the crime? Why does JR need to tell us so much about the flashlight, from an earlier position of disinterest?

Another feature of the case that is lost on most people is not simply that the Ramsey's were multi-millionares, but their lifestyle was beyond Joe Average's comprehension. A lot of the Ramsey's public posturing was designed to hide this.

This feature has to be factored in to any BDI, so along with Kolar's theory that BR exhibited Sexual Behavior Problems (SBP), you have to consider whether the lifestyle and sense of entitlement motivated Burke in any BDI, rather than simply SBP?

There might have been another gift in the wine-cellar destined for JonBenet which Burke found on Christmas day? It's possible Burke's sense of entitlement caused him to reject Christmas gift(s) earlier that morning, which then ended up in the wine-cellar and characterised by Patsy as birthday gifts, i.e. another twist on Patsy covering for Burke?

No wonder the guy was all smiles on Dr Phil.


.
 
*snip*
I was always a IDI, leaner......until I saw the BR interview (s) and he said he remembered really wanting to either play or put together a toy he got. I found that strange, 20 years later you remember that, of course then the flash light and bat was brought up( which I find it also strange that Burke says it was his in Phil interview, but the lawsuit pleading, say IT WAS NOT owned by the R's.)*snip*

Phil: I think your dad had said he used [COLOR=#009900 !important]the flashlight[/COLOR] that night to put you to bed that night and then you snuck downstairs to play.
Burke: yeah. I had some toy I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed...


http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TAJER8FBVT9VK4JDP/burke-on-phil


Burke snuck out of bed, with that flashlight in hand and went downstairs to play, probably into the basement.*snip*

So, you think it would have been more logical for Burke's new Christmas toy to have been in the basement as opposed to the 1st/ground floor?
 
[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TAJER8FBVT9VK4JDP/burke-on-phil




So, you think it would have been more logical for Burke's new Christmas toy to have been in the basement as opposed to the 1st/ground floor?


icedtea4me,
We know its all nonsense as it comes out of JR's mouth. Neither JR or BR say BR went downstairs with the flashlight, only that JR took it upstairs.

This tells us the R's know something we do not about the role of the flashlight.

.
 
The only picture of cigar boxes that I know of are in the following photo which came from one of the tabs. Near the lower left corner you can see the familiar border on one box. There might possibly be another cigar box stacked just under that one, and something on top of them both that looks like the plain, wooden box that Cubans often come in.

attachment.php



There's also this pic....

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • cigarbox.jpg
    cigarbox.jpg
    41.4 KB · Views: 390
There's also this pic....
Thanks, singularity. Considering that some of the same objects in both pics appear to be moved, do you think that might be the same cigar box? Whatever it is that was on top in the other photo isn't there in your screencap.
 
Questions:

What were the parameters of the safe (if anybody knows)?

Is it possible that the killer wanted to fit JBR into the safe, only to realize that it was too small? I just wonder because she was found so close to the safe (if not on top of it). Makes me wonder if the plan then changed.
 
Thanks, singularity. Considering that some of the same objects in both pics appear to be moved, do you think that might be the same cigar box? Whatever it is that was on top in the other photo isn't there in your screencap.
It appears to be slightly bigger although we are looking at them from odd angles.

Is there a higher quality pic of the one you posted? It looks like a brochure on top of the box and it looks like it might be covering writing on that box.


Questions:

What were the parameters of the safe (if anybody knows)?

Is it possible that the killer wanted to fit JBR into the safe, only to realize that it was too small? I just wonder because she was found so close to the safe (if not on top of it). Makes me wonder if the plan then changed.
That's a frightening thought. If she goes in there, she's likely never found. She almost wasn't found where she was at.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
71
Guests online
517
Total visitors
588

Forum statistics

Threads
608,145
Messages
18,235,247
Members
234,301
Latest member
jillolantern
Back
Top