The Charges - Why Not First Degree?

[Batman's Mommy]

:noooo::gasp: are my first gut reactions when I see a murder being tried in Florida. Due to my opinion on other cases in Florida I've followed, it makes me very anxious. I do feel that there is no way, with this case, that a conviction will not occur, and that one or more will be sentenced. I hope, anyways.

JMO

 

[Satchie]

State law specifically requires a charge of second degree murder if the victim dies during the commission of one of the felony crimes specified by statute.
The more I read the more confused I get.

If two people are only intending to commit eg a burglary, but in the course of it one burglar kills someone else kills someone, both will be charged with "felony murder", which is a first degree murder charge. If the death is caused by someone other than the 2 burglars, but it occurs in the course of their crime, they can be charged with "accomplice felony murder", a second-degree charge.

However, the charge in this case is second-degree "murder with a depraved mind", so they are implying that CWW was directly responsible for the murder.

However, I agree that this is just the current charge and the case will be brought to the grand jury to be upgraded to first-degree.

I believe he can be charged with first-degree murder even if he didn't strike the blows - if he hired someone to do it, he would be held equally responsible on the basis it was his intent/plan to cause her death.

 

[RANCH]

If two people are only intending to commit eg a burglary, but in the course of it one perp kills someone, the actual killer will be charged with "felony murder", which is a first degree murder charge. The accomplice to the burglary will be charged with "accomplice felony murder", a second-degree charge.

SBM

There's a Florida case where a man was convicted of first degree murder and all he did was loan his car to friends who committed a murder during a burglary.

Application of felony murder rule

Holle, who had given the police statements in which he seemed to admit knowing about the burglary, was convicted on August 3, 2004,[SUP][3][/SUP] of first-degree murder under a legal doctrine known as the felony murder rule. The doctrine broadens murder liability for participants in violent felonies to include a killing by an accomplice. As the prosecutor David Rimmer explained: "No car, no murder." The victim's father, Terry Snyder, concurred: "It never would have happened unless Ryan Holle had lent the car. It was as good as if he was there."[SUP][2][/SUP]

Holle wasn't present during the murder but is serving a life sentence for his role in the crime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Holle

 

[Satchie]

If two people are only intending to commit eg a burglary, but in the course of it one perp kills someone, the actual killer will be charged with "felony murder", which is a first degree murder charge. The accomplice to the burglary will be charged with "accomplice felony murder", a second-degree charge.

Ah, the above is incorrect. If the burglars were committing their crime and the homeowner ran out of the house and was hit by a car and killed, in that case the burglars could be charged with "accomplice felony murder" in the second degree.

But if one of the burglars killed someone, both would be charged with 'felony murder'.

 

[RANCH]

Ah, the above is incorrect. If the burglars were committing their crime and the homeowner ran out of the house and was hit by a car and killed, in that case the burglars could be charged with "accomplice felony murder" in the second degree.

But if one of the burglars killed someone, both would be charged with 'felony murder'.

I'm trying to find a Florida statute with the names "accomplice felony murder" or "felony murder" but I don't see any.

I did find this statute but it's about attempted murder.

[SIZE=-1]782.051 Attempted felony murder
[/SIZE]

The Florida murder statutes (782.04) don't mention "felony murder" but rather first, second and third degree murder which of course are all felony's.


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

 

[Satchie]

In your link above, the statute defines both types of first degree murder, premeditated and felony, but doesn't call them that:

1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
OR
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,,
etc

The actual term 'felony murder' and 'accomplice felony murder' are used by the prosecution and the courts because proving a case of premeditated murder will be quite different from proving felony murder, for eg, see http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions-ch7.shtml

 

[SeesSeas]

In your link above, the statute defines both types of first degree murder, premeditated and felony, but doesn't call them that:

The actual term 'felony murder' and 'accomplice felony murder' are used by the prosecution and the courts because proving a case of premeditated murder will be quite different from proving felony murder, for eg, see http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions-ch7.shtml

Satchie – The link you provided has excellent information which answers many of the questions being asked on previous posts.
Below, I’ve copied the applicable section of 7.3 FELONY MURDER – FIRST DEGREE:

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions-ch7.shtml
FLORIDA SUPREME COURT
STANDARD JURY INSTRUCTIONS
CRIMINAL CASES

7.3 Felony Murder — First Degree § 782.04(1)(a), Fla.Stat.
7.3 FELONY MURDER — FIRST DEGREE
§ 782.04(1)(a), Fla. Stat.

To prove the crime of First Degree Felony Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. (Victim) is dead.

Give 2a, 2b, or 2c as applicable.
2. a. While engaged in the commission of a[n] (felony alleged), [(defendant)] [(defendant’s) accomplice] caused the death of (victim).

b. While engaged in the attempt to commit a[n] (felony alleged), [(defendant)] [(defendant’s) accomplice] caused the death of (victim).

c. While escaping from the immediate scene after [committing] [attempting to commit] a[n] (felony alleged), [(defendant)] [(defendant’s) accomplice] caused the death of (victim).

Give 3a if defendant was the person who actually killed the deceased.
3. a. [(Defendant) was the person who actually killed (victim).]

Give 3b if defendant was not the person who actually killed the deceased.
b. [(Victim) was killed by a person other than (defendant); but both (defendant) and the person who killed (victim) were principals in the commission of (crime alleged).]

In order to convict the defendant of First Degree Felony Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove that the defendant had a premeditated design or intent to kill.

1. Define the crime alleged. If Burglary, also define crime that was the object of burglary.

2. If 2b above is given, also define “attempt” (see 5.1).

3. If 3b is given, immediately give principal instruction (3.5(a)).
4. Since the statute does not require its proof, it is not necessary to define “premeditation.”

5. If the underlying felony is charged as a separate count, read instruction 3.12(d)(Legally Interlocking Counts). Failure to do so may result in an impermissible inconsistent verdict. See, e.g., Brown v. State, 959 So. 2d 218 (Fla. 2007).

 

[SeesSeas]

In your link above, the statute defines both types of first degree murder, premeditated and felony, but doesn't call them that:

The actual term 'felony murder' and 'accomplice felony murder' are used by the prosecution and the courts because proving a case of premeditated murder will be quite different from proving felony murder, for eg, see http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions-ch7.shtml

According to Section 7.3 at the link you provided -
http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions-ch7.shtml
Florida does not have to prove premeditation to convict defendant of First Degree Felony Murder.

This is probably why the Probable Cause Statement for CWW states WO PREMEDITATION:
The undersigned certifies and swears that he/she has just and reasonable grounds to believe that the above named Defendant committed the following violation of law: MURDER DANGEROUS DEPRAVED WO PREMEDITATION

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions-ch7.shtml
7.3 FELONY MURDER — FIRST DEGREE
§ 782.04(1)(a), Fla. Stat.

In order to convict the defendant of First Degree Felony Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove that the defendant had a premeditated design or intent to kill.

 

[Satchie]

I wonder whether the felony murder provisions have their intended effect to reduce crime - it seems to me to be so poorly understood, are criminals even aware of it?

 

[Satchie]

This is probably why the Probable Cause Statement for CWW states WO PREMEDITATION:

Possibly, but only a Florida grand jury can decide to charge someone with premeditated murder.

 

[howonkee]

According to Section 7.3 at the link you provided -
http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions-ch7.shtml
Florida does not have to prove premeditation to convict defendant of First Degree Felony Murder.

This is probably why the Probable Cause Statement for CWW states WO PREMEDITATION:
The undersigned certifies and swears that he/she has just and reasonable grounds to believe that the above named Defendant committed the following violation of law: MURDER DANGEROUS DEPRAVED WO PREMEDITATION

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions-ch7.shtml
7.3 FELONY MURDER — FIRST DEGREE
§ 782.04(1)(a), Fla. Stat.

In order to convict the defendant of First Degree Felony Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove that the defendant had a premeditated design or intent to kill.

Ok, my eyes are glazing over now.

 

[Bobbywoo]

SBM

There's a Florida case where a man was convicted of first degree murder and all he did was loan his car to friends who committed a murder during a burglary.



Holle wasn't present during the murder but is serving a life sentence for his role in the crime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Holle

Thank! Good find

 

[Njptjp]

I am interested in the current charge. Depraved mind.no premeditation. The definition seems to imply behavior that is either reckless, or non caring that can ultimately results in the disregard of another,
resulting in death. Was she pistol whipped? Beat about the head....as in to "scare" her, and she was ultimately killed? Was she shot? Was she strangled...and unintentionally murdered, during the commission of another crime or act? " Open the safe" as an example.....or...."you have found me out....don't rat me out" and the violence was used as a scare tactic that backfired and resulted in her death? Just thinking....my opinion only....

 

[Webjunkie]

I just thought it was strange that the charges actually stated "dangerous/depraved". Aren't all intentional murderers that? I get the 1,2,3 degree's, but other than that, wouldn't it be manslaughter?

 

[Satchie]

I just thought it was strange that the charges actually stated "dangerous/depraved".

I think it's an older form of speech, dating back to common law precedents, that has come to be used as a strictly legal term to designate a particular criminal charge, that is associated with a particular level of punishment. The prosecutors have to prove (for eg) a) that it wasn't an accident, and b) the killer wasn't insane. For premeditated murder, they have to prove a) it wasn't an accident, b) the person wasn't insane and c) that they planned to do it.

 

[KateB]

Investigation in to the charges of baby Chance murder
October 21, 2015
http://www.winknews.com/2015/10/21/investigation-in-to-the-charges-of-baby-chance-murder/

FORT MYERS, Fla.–WINK News is investigating two of the biggest stories we’ve covered all year–the disappearance of baby Chance Walsh and the killing of doctor Teresa Sievers.
...
WINK News wanted to find out why the suspects in this case qualify for first degree murder charges when the two main suspects in the Teresa Sievers murder are only facing 2nd degree murder charges.

“The main difference that you are going to find between a 1st degree murder and a 2nd degree murder case is going to be the premeditation,” said local defense attorney Lance Dunford who is not working on any of these cases.
...
But in the Sievers case, Sheriff Mike Scott says both Jimmy Rodgers and Wayne Wright were seen in surveillance video at a Lee County Walmart just one day before Sievers was found murdered. Which could also mean it was premeditated. But–

“We don’t know why they came down to the house, we don’t know if they were invited or it was some kind of deal that went bad,” said Dunford

Link to Chance's threads: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/tags.php?tag=chance+walsh

 

[CoolJ]

Investigation in to the charges of baby Chance murder
October 21, 2015
http://www.winknews.com/2015/10/21/investigation-in-to-the-charges-of-baby-chance-murder/

FORT MYERS, Fla.–WINK News is investigating two of the biggest stories we’ve covered all year–the disappearance of baby Chance Walsh and the killing of doctor Teresa Sievers.
...
WINK News wanted to find out why the suspects in this case qualify for first degree murder charges when the two main suspects in the Teresa Sievers murder are only facing 2nd degree murder charges.

“The main difference that you are going to find between a 1st degree murder and a 2nd degree murder case is going to be the premeditation,” said local defense attorney Lance Dunford who is not working on any of these cases.
...
But in the Sievers case, Sheriff Mike Scott says both Jimmy Rodgers and Wayne Wright were seen in surveillance video at a Lee County Walmart just one day before Sievers was found murdered. Which could also mean it was premeditated. But–

“We don’t know why they came down to the house, we don’t know if they were invited or it was some kind of deal that went bad,” said Dunford

Link to Chance's threads: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/tags.php?tag=chance+walsh

No mention of needing a grand jury indictment as the reason for the murder 2 charges, which is how folks are explaining it in this thread.

 

[Satchie]

Hmmm, it's not just this thread, here an attorney also making that point:

https://crimcourts.wordpress.com/2015/10/15/curtis-wayne-wright-booked-in-lee-county-jail-1st-suspect-in-the-theresa-sievers-murder/

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/crime/why-not-firstdegree-murder-for-suspects-in-sievers-case_71863055

 

[atthelake]

Hmmm, it's not just this thread, here an attorney also making that point:

https://crimcourts.wordpress.com/2015/10/15/curtis-wayne-wright-booked-in-lee-county-jail-1st-suspect-in-the-theresa-sievers-murder/

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/crime/why-not-firstdegree-murder-for-suspects-in-sievers-case_71863055

Beach did a shout out to AZL a few times for this case...

Perhaps AZL could input on this also as we have had quite a bit of discussion on this and what we are reading now is different than from what many people thought .

Bat signal to AZL and beach!

 

[IM4TRUTH]

Would it make a difference because the mother of baby Chance has confessed that they killed him? Or at least she said her boyfriend did.