The cost of searching for Kyron

[GrainneDhu]

So, what happens when/if school starts up again and they haven't solved the case? Not to beat a dead horse, but weren't the parents told not to worry about sending their kids back to school..ect.? If they don't have a POI (official) or someone arrested by the time school starts up---how are the parents going to react?

Speaking from MOO I would be really wary about sending my kid back to school.

Does this put pressure on LE to "get it solved" by the time school starts again?

Maybe. I hope the sheriff won't feel pressure because those are the conditions where investigations are more likely to go wrong.

Skyline School is close to one third kids transferring in, probably due to their excellent reputation. My guess is that if some parents choose not to send their children to Skyline, that will just make room for parents who wanted to but couldn't get a transfer before.

 

[ami]

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/post_32.html

BBM

I am struggle to understand something - maybe someone on the forum can help me out.

This is a middle to upper-middle class family - actually - 2 families.

Why on earth would 200 supboenaed records be required and what could they possibly be - from 10 to hundreds of pages?

I'm probably just not understanding something but ... what is going on with all this documentation required relative to a family of 4 adults and 4 children? Could phone records, internet activity, legal records, school records and - possibly medical records generate that many subpoenaed docs? Is each monthly bill a record perhaps?

What else is there? Is it more complicated than we might know, or does that sound about right? :waitasec:

In my brother's divorce they had at least that many records just for the interrogatories! it's insane when you start seeing the sheer mass of documentation for even a relatively ordinary life. It's actually scary.

Cell records, credit card records for x number of months times y number of cards, bank accounts, tax returns, email accounts times z number of email accounts in the family, online gaming chat transcripts, facebook account, journal entries, anything entered onto online messageboards (eek!), school, work, anything saved to computer file/webcam... who knows, maybe they're looking through TH and KH's file cabinets. I can easily imagine that leading up to 200 or more records. I was just noticing that detailed billing on my Verizon cell phone can be a gazillion pages long and contains tons of data.

 

[GrainneDhu]

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/post_32.html

BBM

I am struggle to understand something - maybe someone on the forum can help me out.

This is a middle to upper-middle class family - actually - 2 families.

Why on earth would 200 supboenaed records be required and what could they possibly be - from 10 to hundreds of pages?

I'm probably just not understanding something but ... what is going on with all this documentation required relative to a family of 4 adults and 4 children? Could phone records, internet activity, legal records, school records and - possibly medical records generate that many subpoenaed docs? Is each monthly bill a record perhaps?

What else is there? Is it more complicated than we might know, or does that sound about right? :waitasec:

Cell phone pings alone could be hundreds of pages for each phone account examined.

It's not just four adults and four kids. It's also records from anyone that they are looking at in connection to those four adults and four kids.

For one thing, I'm betting they looked Kristian Horman's records over closely. Plus all the other parents (Terri's exes, Desiree's ex(es)) and anyone who would be a grandparent to one or more of the children.

And then there are the people who are not family. So, for instance, the landscaper who alleged MFH? They had to get his cell phone records, bank records, internet records and probably a search warrant for his computer.

There are also probably quite a few people who had innocent contacts with the family whose records were subpoena'd. For instance, I'm betting that anyone that TMH called on a regular or irregular basis has undergone a certain level of scrutiny.

Before long, the investigation starts drowning in an ocean of information.

I'm actually kind of surprised it's only 200 or so records. I would have expected something more along the lines of 2000.

 

[ami]

And yet going on 7 weeks after Kyron was last seen there isn't even a person of interest. Or even direct knowledge of whether or not a stranger took him.

Official POI or public knowledge. The people closer to the investigation seem confident there's quite a bit of LE info, including the unofficial POI (perhaps plural).

 

[GrainneDhu]

If this were my grandchild, I'd be out soliciting for funding - using legitimate methods of course. How can one put a price tag or establish monetary limits on solving a crime involving a child?

BBM

It has to be done because we do not live in a system with unlimited funds.

If I had been raped in Multnomah County in June, I'd be crushed if I thought the Kyron investigation used up the funds needed to process my rape kit. And so would any other women this perpetrator attacked.

If I had a loved one who was killed by a hit and run driver in Multnomah County, I'd be enraged if I thought the Kyron investigation had used up the funds needed to investigate my loved one's death.

If I just found out that my grandma's retirement fund was drained by some snake oil salesman that preys on the vulnerable elderly, I would want LE to investigate soon enough to get at least some of that money back so Grandma can enjoy the retirement she earned through a lifetime of hard work and good works.

And when you consider that LE funding in Multnomah County apparently comes from the general fund, then the effects ripple out.

If I had a relative who was terminally ill and could only stay at home because of county funded visiting nurse assistance, I'd be horrified if that funding were cut to compensate for the Kyron investigation.

If I had a loved one who was out of touch with reality that I could not get into a psychiatric facility due to lack of funds due to the Kyron investigation, I'd be overwhelmed.

If I were a county worker who was already facing furloughs and whose spouse lost their job due to the lousy economy, extra furlough days might put us under. I'd resent having to take extra furlough days in order to divert funds to the Kyron investigation.

If I were a child being abused, molested or neglected in Multnomah County whose child protective services worker was loaded with so many cases they couldn't take the time to get to know me personally? I'd wonder if it was just another piece of proof that any other kid is more important than me.

I made all the above up out of my own imagination but I would be willing to bet high that every single one of those scenarios is in play right now in Multnomah County.

I sincerely hope that none of them is being slighted in order to funnel funds to Kyron's investigation but if no limits are placed on that investigation, others will indeed begin to suffer.

They are all important. They are all precious, child, adult or elderly, because they are all human beings. Their needs are just as real as Kyron's needs.

 

[PaulaF513]

It is frustrating that they haven't found any trace of this child after so long. Immediately after a disappearance is when LE has the best shot of victim recovery and of solving the "whodunit".

Imho, this LE team directed their focus immediately on the SM, to the exclusion of other likely theories. They desperately needed to assure the public that a random child predator was not on the loose in the area. TH was a conveniently suspicious person, having balked at and subsequently failed LDTs. The question is what caused that to happen. Knowing what we know know about her , could those failures be due to her inappropriate sexual activity? Yes, I realize that would demonstrate truly aberrant behavior by her, to lie about such things with a child's life at stake. She had to realize that LE already knew. But this is an overtly disturbed woman in a dysfunctional relationship. Yet she seems to be the direct focus of LE, who then shared their findings with the family. We have seen the consequences and they have nothing to do with finding Kyron or learning his fate.

Demonizing the SM seems to have backfired on the investigation. By alienating her from the family circle, they put her out of contact with the one person, her husband, who may have been able to glean some useful information from her, through subterfuge.

I hate that I believe little Kyron is most likely dead. And if evidence turns up that TH caused that to happen, LE has already laid the basis for some type of insanity defense and made it very public. And if it turns out that she is positively eliminated as the perp, they have squandered much time on developing their case against the wrong person and allowing a child's killer to remain free.

 

[TxLady2]

Well, you have all the phone and internet and ATM and bank and credit card records from people like MC and the landscaper.

You have internet records and possibly phone and other records from people on the internet making threats against Terri.

You have phone, internet, etc records from teachers at the school, janitorial staff, various other school workers.

Probably some parents and other random people who were at the school that day.

It mounts up particularly because of the vast number of people at the school at the time Kyron went missing IMO.

They're not going to subpoena phone and internet records from teachers, janitors, workers at school, etc., unless they have reason to suspect someone, sorry. Those kinds of things require a warrant signed by a judge. They probably have notes on interviews they've conducted with everyone, but they can't go around getting personal records from everybody who came in contact with Kyron or Terri, not unlesss there is a reason to suspect that person may be involved.

 

[BeanE]

They're not going to subpoena phone and internet records from teachers, janitors, workers at school, etc., unless they have reason to suspect someone, sorry. Those kinds of things require a warrant signed by a judge. They probably have notes on interviews they've conducted with everyone, but they can't go around getting personal records from everybody who came in contact with Kyron or Terri, not unlesss there is a reason to suspect that person may be involved.

Yes, I'm aware they need a warrant and probable cause. I wasn't suggesting they might have subpoenaed records for everyone in Portland.

I was just suggesting some additional people for whom LE might have subpoenaed records, in response to the post I quoted, which noted only the four parents, to account for the 200 subpoenaed records.

 

[sarah7855]

This quote from this article is one that has stuck in my mind, with good reason:

But detectives still need help from the public, Gates said -- not only in continuing to keep an eye out for anything related to Kyron's disappearance, but also in understanding why officials haven't released many details about the investigation.

"If we released everything that we knew, we'd get all kinds of people that call in with all kinds of theories. What we want is when we get tips to get fresh information. If we get a call with details that haven't gone out, we know that person is a credible witness," Gates said. "That's integral to the case and that's going to help us solve it. When we release tidbits of information to the public, it's definitely in order to help us solve this case.

"Until we solve this case, the public does not have a right to know the details. Once we solve the case, they have every right to."

Bottom line is this: we do not have a right to know what LE has. Period. We can speculate that they "have nothing", that they "aren't any closer to solving this crime than they were on day 1", that "they need to tell us what they have so far before asking for more money", etc. etc., but speculation is just that- speculation. I do agree that they should hold a townhall meeting if, god forbid, Kyron isn't found by the time school starts to reassure parents, but LE does NOT have to name any suspect or POI or give away any details of their investigation if they don't feel it'll help their case in some way. I'm a little amazed, reading posts where people are saying that they have nothing. In just this document alone, they are stating that they have 38 huge binders filled with information as well as about 200 records, some with hundreds of pages per record. Think about this as an example-of course, they've gotten Terri's internet records. Since she was supposedly on her computer a lot, think of the amount of information contained in that record alone and how much time it would take to sift though. People, this is an investigation, it takes time and we have to accept that we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Have a little faith.

 

[cluciano63]

It sounds as though LE almost expects to have to build a case without knowing where Kyron is/not finding his body.

 

[wenwe4]

I work in a related field. Let me think about this and consult with someone and I'll get back to you. One thing--if they subpoenaed the case file from DHS (Oregon Department of Human Services, re: child endangerment/DUI in 2005), I would think that alone would have generated dozens of documents of varying length. Anyone work in human services who can confirm? I imagine this would include activity reports (i.e. who called who when about what), requests for investigation, investigation reports, phone logs, internal memos, etc., etc., etc.

I work in Washington State in a similar arena. It is not uncommon for child protection records to be many volumes of documents. Often the case record is repeated each time a new referral comes in, so many of the pages are repeats of previous referrals, information, case updates, letters to the court, provider status reports, etc. I would imagine that the DUI/child endangerment would have generated mandatory random UA's and BA's (urine and blood tests) for a period of time, as well as a chemical dependency evaluation and subsequent treatment if warranted, (ranging from an 8 hour class to inpatient care). Furthermore, she probably would have been encouraged to do some AA meetings and/or a few sessions of individual treatment.

Since the allegations of child harm (or imminent harm) could be ameliorated with the DUI courts and some random monitoring for alcohol, it is doubtful she would be offered any further services (ie: parenting education or therapy) unless their investigation lead to more info, the State could not justify the expense of adding parent ed if it wasn't a "presenting problem".

Depending on the family history, what the issues were to bring the case to the attention of the protective services dept, ect. If she were to have had a significant history of DUI's and placing the child/ren @ risk - then certainly the State would be justified in adding more services. The States job is not to fix everything, but to help correct only those things that were alleged in the referral (unless they find further risks to the child). Hope this helps.

 

[Kat010]

Interestingly enough, the $ amount mentioned here, and the $ amount mentioned as already spent earlier, add up to close to one million dollars. A "million dollars" is a signficant number to most of us.

I think this puts "paid" (ahem) to any notion that someone friendly is hiding Kyron to bring him back later. Who in the world would bring him back knowing that they might be sued for almost a million dollars in wasted taxpayer funds?

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

It sounds as though LE almost expects to have to build a case without knowing where Kyron is/not finding his body.

I'm afraid of this, too, and it saddens me that this might be yet another case of a missing child who is never located or remains found. It's also sounding like there won't be a resolution any time soon. jmo

 

[lillygator]

more money? what about other cases out there....they just get the shaft?
Don't get me wrong, I want answers and Kyron found...but...wow.

 

[soldiermedic335]

I think this means they are a long way from any arrest or solutions in this case. But hopeful that someone comes across Kyron before they are done with all of this paperwork and lab work. (unlike Haleigh.)

I agree, I reallly don't think they are anywhere near an arrest. Maybe, LE spoke too soon saying it's an "isolated incident"

 

[citigirl]

Just to play devil's advocate here, they are going to need that tech to be available to testify during the trial, if there is one. Maybe through more than one trial if they arrest someone for MFH and later for kidnapping or something else. Better to have approval ahead of time than to have to go back to the public trough and ask again...

 

[cluciano63]

more money? what about other cases out there....they just get the shaft?
Don't get me wrong, I want answers and Kyron found...but...wow.

I know...it is a tough position for MCSO to be in, or any city, in the current economic times. So many other programs are being reduced or cut entirely. I think that if it turns out that MCSO needed a million dollars or more to solve and prosecute what turns out to be a "family" murder, it will not exactly make them look like superstars.

 

[Kimster]

In the Haleigh Cummings case, there was an immediate need for the PCSO in May of 2009 to fund the case. I believe some of it was from grants and some from the state. I can't be sure because the link I'm going to use isn't always accurate information and we don't allow it as a rule. I'm going to bend the rule just a bit since it might generate more sleuthing on this topic and is innocuous when it comes to starting rumors about this case. Plus, the original link to the article requires membership to the Palatka newspaper.

"There was one interesting aside about the deficit facing Putnam County, and that is the cost of funding the Haleigh Cummings case. Often people do not realize how much it costs to fund an investigation that lasts for months on end. The Commissioners &#8216;approved the transfer of $164,729 to the sheriff&#8217;s office budget from several grants, including $35,000 from the state to help defray costs associated with the search for Haleigh Cummings.&#8217;" <snipped>

http://www..net/121030

.

 

[Emma Peel]

In the Haleigh Cummings case, there was an immediate need for the PCSO in May of 2009 to fund the case. I believe some of it was from grants and some from the state. I can't be sure because the link I'm going to use isn't always accurate information and we don't allow it as a rule. I'm going to bend the rule just a bit since it might generate more sleuthing on this topic and is innocuous when it comes to starting rumors about this case. Plus, the original link to the article requires membership to the Palatka newspaper.

"There was one interesting aside about the deficit facing Putnam County, and that is the cost of funding the Haleigh Cummings case. Often people do not realize how much it costs to fund an investigation that lasts for months on end. The Commissioners ‘approved the transfer of $164,729 to the sheriff’s office budget from several grants, including $35,000 from the state to help defray costs associated with the search for Haleigh Cummings.’" <snipped>

http://www..net/121030

.

I was wondering if we had financial info on the cost of the Haleigh Cummings investigation to compare...

I was just wondering this Kimster.

I feel like Kyron's is budgeted for the first year at 3 times what Haleigh's is at in it's 2nd year. I don't know why I have the middle $300K's stuck in my head for Haleigh's case. I'd have to see if I could find it - but not today ... I'm peeking from work today...

 

[Kimster]

I was wondering if we had financial info on the cost of the Haleigh Cummings investigation to compare...

I was just wondering this Kimster.

I feel like Kyron's is budgeted for the first year at 3 times what Haleigh's is at in it's 2nd year. I don't know why I have the middle $300K's stuck in my head for Haleigh's case. I'd have to see if I could find it - but not today ... I'm peeking from work today...

I was trying to find that and couldn't. I think there was an article about that after the first year. The one I sited was written in May of 2009, so it was only 3 months after Haleigh disappeared.