The cries for help

[ariesgodofwar]

If the shot to Trayvon's chest was direct from front to back, I think it means that both GZ and TM were standing when the shot was fired.

I truly believe GZ was enraged about the physical altercation and had TM at gunpoint after the fight stopped. And while standing directly in front him, put the gun to TM's chest and shot him while he was screaming for help.

I don't see how he could have shot him with the trajectory described while they were fighting on the ground. That kill shot landed too straight and too perfectly, imo.

I'm still curious to find out if someone can/will testify that TM was killed instantly so that this nonsense of what he apparently said after he was shot can be proven as false. I just don't believe it.

How so? GZ was shorter than TM by at least 3 inches. Your heart is about level with your arm if you extend in the firing position (lowest portion of your heart is about level with your nipples). Given that GZ was a few inches shorter than TM (at least 3in assuming that the ME is correct about TM being 71inches tall, even though in the 7-11 video, he appears much taller than the clerk), if TM and GZ were standing up at the time (which contradicts witness statements), I believe the round would have to have had a vertical trajectory in order to hit the right ventricle of TM given the disparity in height. With his arms extended straight out (only way to get flat trajectory if standing level to a target), I believe George's round would have to have had a noticeable positive slope to gain 3 vertical inches in the distance between the firearm and impact (which was max 18 inches according to the ME report, but perhaps much closer given the stippling and contact burns the ballistics Team noted.) Point being, that I think unless GZ was standing on something elevating him 3 inches (even at very close proximity), the only other explanation for a flat trajectory was if someone was supine and fired up, or TM was supine and GZ fired down.

That said, given TM was found face down, I think it was unlikely he could roll over with no blood pressure.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

How so? GZ was shorter than TM by at least 3 inches. Your heart is about level with your arm if you extend in the firing position (lowest portion of your heart is about level with your nipples). Given that GZ was a few inches shorter than TM (at least 3in assuming that the ME is correct about TM being 71inches tall, even though in the 7-11 video, he appears much taller than the clerk), if TM and GZ were standing up at the time (which contradicts witness statements), I believe the round would have to have had a vertical trajectory in order to hit the right ventricle of TM given the disparity in height. With his arms extended straight out (only way to get flat trajectory if standing level to a target), I believe George's round would have to have had a noticeable positive slope to gain 3 vertical inches in the distance between the firearm and impact (which was max 18 inches according to the ME report, but perhaps much closer given the stippling and contact burns the ballistics Team noted.) Point being, that I think unless GZ was standing on something elevating him 3 inches (even at very close proximity), the only other explanation for a flat trajectory was if someone was supine and fired up, or TM was supine and GZ fired down.

That said, given TM was found face down, I think it was unlikely he could roll over with no blood pressure.

BBM

I don't think anyone was watching them when the shot was fired were they?

 

[Sensei]

If the shot to Trayvon's chest was direct from front to back, I think it means that both GZ and TM were standing when the shot was fired.

I truly believe GZ was enraged about the physical altercation and had TM at gunpoint after the fight stopped. And while standing directly in front him, put the gun to TM's chest and shot him while he was screaming for help.

I don't see how he could have shot him with the trajectory described while they were fighting on the ground. That kill shot landed too straight and too perfectly, imo.

I'm still curious to find out if someone can/will testify that TM was killed instantly so that this nonsense of what he apparently said after he was shot can be proven as false. I just don't believe it.

What I find facinating and perplexing is that with all these injuries that GZ supposedly sustained in a life or death fight, there is a miniscule amount of any type of transfer, minimal to zero GZ blood on Trayvon, even with the nose breaking, lip splitting and head injuries, (of course there appeared to be very miminal to zero GZ blood on GZ or any of his clothes either) and no Travon blood on GZ that has been noted, also no bruises on hands or arms from GZ defending himself either, and not a single bruise that would show that GZ landed so much as one solitary punch to attempt to stop this awful beating that is being claimed. I find that odd and unreasonable in light of the fact that we now find that Trayvon was not a 6 foot 5 giant, but was in all reality only 3 inches taller than GZ and 40 pounds lighter, and 10 years younger with much less fighting experience than a former bouncer would normally have. All of this and the "front to back directly" trajectory of the bullet leads me to think that there is a lot more evidence that the shot did not occur when Trayvon was on top of GZ, but that the shot would have to occur when both were standing and the intermediate range does not give a lot of creedance to the shot while he was on top beating GZ either since it appears that intermediate range would be from 6 to 10 inches and I don't see how you get 6 inches of separation if the person is straddle on top of you. All of this together indicates to me that Trayvon was shot while both men were standing...but once again I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, and this is only My Opinion JMHO and stuff.

 

[stmarysmead]

Not sure how effective he was at keeping the neighborhood safe at the end of the day. KWIM?
Arming himself and looking for robbers in a residential community is foolhardy,imo and zero heroic about it.

I think a lot of people intervened-there were plenty of calls to 911 and that is really the only thing that can be done responsibly and to make sure no one else gets hurt.

It is foolish to get in the middle of an altercation, in the dark, when one does not really know what is going on. We have statements and calm and we still don't know what was going on. Imagine trying to figure out who is hurting whom in the dark-it would be impossible to know and ultimately would introduce yet another dynamic to the situation that could have ended up with more than one person being shot and killed or it could have saved Trayvon's life-but we will never know.

The trade off for protecting the community "under siege from thugs" was the death of a teen and Zimmerman getting a broken nose and arrested for murder- just not a good trade off to stop burglaries. It just isn't. I would have personally handed the burglars my TV instead-but there weren't any burglars there so I guess that would not have worked in this case.

Volunteer work like this is a thankless job. In that neighborhood, with thugs walking into homes in daylight while MOms and Babies cringed in fear...having a gun as Watch Captain made sense. I would not want my son facing this criminal element unarmed. As it was, Gz was savagely beaten. He tried to call for help and only used that gun as a last option.

Many of us are out of patience with the element that terrorizes hard working people of all ages and races. Police seem tardy and alarms almost useless. There is little option for us but selfdefense. Thank God the Constitution allows each of us to decide for ourselves.

And yes,, i consider physical violence with fists not to be a Free Pass. If one initiates violence, which I believe TM did...then you have opened the door to whatever kind of self defense is available from the person you attack.

My opinion only...and my constitutional right.

 

[LambChop]

Volunteer work like this is a thankless job. In that neighborhood, with thugs walking into homes in daylight while MOms and Babies cringed in fear...having a gun as Watch Captain made sense. I would not want my son facing this criminal element unarmed. As it was, Gz was savagely beaten. He tried to call for help and only used that gun as a last option.

Many of us are out of patience with the element that terrorizes hard working people of all ages and races. Police seem tardy and alarms almost useless. There is little option for us but selfdefense. Thank God the Constitution allows each of us to decide for ourselves.

And yes,, i consider physical violence with fists not to be a Free Pass. If one initiates violence, which I believe TM did...then you have opened the door to whatever kind of self defense is available from the person you attack.

My opinion only...and my constitutional right.

TM was no . That fourth amendement right also should pertain to TM if he was being approached by a Watch Captain that was carrying a weapon (in his own mind acting on behalf of LE in their absence) and had already decided TM was a criminal. At the very least GZ should have either let LE handle it, or if he could not control his assertive tendencies identified himself at the clubhouse when TM first became suspicious to him. It would have ended right there. When we assume everyone is a just by the way they look and act out on that believe we are essentially taking away that person's right to freedom. We can't have it both ways. Even LE has to wait until someone commits a crime, they can't arrest you because you look funny in their eyes.

But, again we are being drawn off topic. jmo

 

[stmarysmead]

I never said TM was a . But Thugs are to blame for the suspicion that fel
on TM that night. GZ had every right to be concerned about a stranger who fit the demographic that was terrorizing that neighborhood. Inteviews with neighbors in an article I posted in another thread confirm that troubles with young Black teens was the "elephant in the living room" regarding this event. The speaker was a Black female neighbor.

I see no assertive tendencies. I believe Tm was the aggressor in the fight that resulted in GZ being beaten badly and TM being shot.

It's a tragedy not a crime.

 

[dr dona]

I'm sorry but what moms and babies were cringed in fear in the daylight. TM was a guest in that gated community and was not engaged in any unlawful behavior. He was walking back to his dad's fiances townhome after a run to the Quick Trip/ 711 or whatever. I can appreciate righteous paranoia----I got lost on a dead end street in a really bad area of St Louis...I was scared sh--less and got out of there really fast....but we can't assume that any young black male walking down the street is a criminal ---or any white or hispanic males for that instance!!!! Also it is a violation of Neighborhood Watch directives to be armed and to actively pursue anyone. They are supposed to watch and call LE... I'm just a mom in a subdivision after work but myself and other neighborhood mom's watch for cars checking out kids etc----if we notice something a little off we call LE and they check it out.
MOO

 

[Sensei]

I never said TM was a . But Thugs are to blame for the suspicion that fel
on TM that night. GZ had every right to be concerned about a stranger who fit the demographic that was terrorizing that neighborhood. Inteviews with neighbors in an article I posted in another thread confirm that troubles with young Black teens was the "elephant in the living room" regarding this event. The speaker was a Black female neighbor.

I see no assertive tendencies. I believe Tm was the aggressor in the fight that resulted in GZ being beaten badly and TM being shot.

It's a tragedy not a crime.

I totally disagree, it is a crime Until you see someone actually breaking the law, TM was committing no crime and while he may fit the demographic, there are hundreds and thousands of people who do as well including some who actually live in the complex. He could have kept an eye on Travon from his vehicle, or from a distance....a considerable distance while he waited for LE, HE DID NOT, he made it a point to confront Trayvon, there is no other explaination for the shooting to have happened where it did otherwise, none of the explainations put forth so far are in the least credible, looking for an address (what reason did he have for getting an address where Trayvon was not, and further he was not either) what earthly good would that have done? There is NOTHING in the autopsey report that would lend credence to the story that Trayvon attacked him, and the fact that he had some injuries does not in any way even begin to prove that Trayvon was the attacker, and in point of fact there are many troubling discrepancies that would tend to make one think that his story is simply not close to reasonable. IMO that makes what he did a crime, a person who was not committing any crime is DEAD by his actions, and he is not telling the whole truth, or even close to it unless someone doctored all the documents in the doc dump that we have seen. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[dr dona]

PS---I still think the high pitched voice screaming HELP---and I still swear I heard a MAMA in there was TM...The voice was high enough in pitch to sound like a male still in puberty---not an adult male!!!!! Remember all those boy's choirs who still have boys singing soprano????
MOO

 

[stmarysmead]

I'm sorry but what moms and babies were cringed in fear in the daylight. TM was a guest in that gated community and was not engaged in any unlawful behavior. He was walking back to his dad's fiances townhome after a run to the Quick Trip/ 711 or whatever. I can appreciate righteous paranoia----I got lost on a dead end street in a really bad area of St Louis...I was scared sh--less and got out of there really fast....but we can't assume that any young black male walking down the street is a criminal ---or any white or hispanic males for that instance!!!! Also it is a violation of Neighborhood Watch directives to be armed and to actively pursue anyone. They are supposed to watch and call LE... I'm just a mom in a subdivision after work but myself and other neighborhood mom's watch for cars checking out kids etc----if we notice something a little off we call LE and they check it out.
MOO

I posted this before but since you have challenged my words I hope the Mods will allow a repost. This article is from Reuters...Remove if Mods fel I should not repeat...but, gosh, it is hard to be challenged and not reply with the article.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425
"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."...snipped

A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.



<modsnip>

 

[JBean]

Volunteer work like this is a thankless job. In that neighborhood, with thugs walking into homes in daylight while MOms and Babies cringed in fear...having a gun as Watch Captain made sense. I would not want my son facing this criminal element unarmed. As it was, Gz was savagely beaten. He tried to call for help and only used that gun as a last option.

Many of us are out of patience with the element that terrorizes hard working people of all ages and races. Police seem tardy and alarms almost useless. There is little option for us but selfdefense. Thank God the Constitution allows each of us to decide for ourselves.

And yes,, i consider physical violence with fists not to be a Free Pass. If one initiates violence, which I believe TM did...then you have opened the door to whatever kind of self defense is available from the person you attack.

My opinion only...and my constitutional right.

savagely beaten, mothers and babies cringing in fear, element terrorizing hard working people;all loaded words and phrases. I have been subjected to enough of that from the media LOL.

Taking your emotional element out of it for just a moment- the only thing I am saying is that going around looking for people committing crimes with a gun is dangerous and irresponsible. Something is bound to happen and it is just not worth it imo.
I understand arming yourself in your home and taking action if someone invadses your territory,but walking around with a loaded gun trying to find it- well that's just a recipe for disaster.
As always JMHO.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I have never in my life seen a man laying on the ground screaming in terror because someone scratched his face.

How did he get the marks on the back of his head shaped like a U? I don't know but I know it was not from getting his head beat on a sidewalk. He fell somewhere and hit his head on an odd shaped thing.

They were screams of terror and most likely from a person who was shown a gun while the persons other hand had a hold of his hoodie.

all imo

 

[Dr.Fessel]

This is the man who wants you to believe he was screaming in terror 4 1/2 hours early from the taking of this picture because he got his face scratched. The brutal beating is shown in full force with all the swelling from the brutal punches he sustained.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/george-zimmerman-photos_n_1526045.html

 

[curl_in_progress]

I never said TM was a . But Thugs are to blame for the suspicion that fel
on TM that night. GZ had every right to be concerned about a stranger who fit the demographic that was terrorizing that neighborhood. Inteviews with neighbors in an article I posted in another thread confirm that troubles with young Black teens was the "elephant in the living room" regarding this event. The speaker was a Black female neighbor.

I see no assertive tendencies. I believe Tm was the aggressor in the fight that resulted in GZ being beaten badly and TM being shot.

It's a tragedy not a crime.

It should not have been Trayvon's problem that the complex was being burglarized and it should not have been his problem that GZ felt he needed to aggressively determine who belonged in the complex and who did not. George Zimmerman made it Trayvon's problem that night.

Aside from the above, if the girlfriends story is truthful, and I believe it is, Trayvon asked George Zimmerman why he was following him and what did George Zimmerman respond with? "What are you doing here?" He should have kept his distance and identified himself. That, in my opinion, makes him the aggressor. So if he continued to approach Trayvon while asking that question and moved into his personal space, Trayvon had every right to punch him and defend himself from a perceived threat, if that is what happened. (I happen to think he continued towards Trayvon and put his hands on him and that's why the fight began.) He was already afraid because GZ had been following him. He tried to find out why and got no explanation. He was greeted with aggression.

Even if I give GZ the benefit of the doubt and say I believe his story, he ultimately is in the wrong because he had more than one opportunity to identify himself and he did not.

Trayvon did everything right that night. Unfortunately, GZ acted with negligence and aggression that night and needs to be held accountable for killing Trayvon. I don't care if his house was broken into 5 minutes before he saw Trayvon. He did NOT act responsibly that night. Trayvon did not deserve to die in such a horrible and senseless way.

 

[liedetector]

When I think of GZ crying out for help during his beating...I despair that no one intervened. It is volunteers like GZ who tutor children of other races and donate their time AND their safety to keeping their neighborhoods safe...that are unsung heroes. The fact that TM died does not change that for me.

It is tragic that no one intervened to stop the beating. A young man lost his life and now the Government (or a hate group) might take the life of another.

GZ "got involved"...when his neighborhood was under seige from thugs. If only someone had gotten involved for him and TM that night.

BBM - the only things you said in the above post with which I can agree. I too despair and think it was tragic that no one intervened - but to save Trayvon's life! As I replied to a similar post of yours on a different thread, from what we know at this juncture about George's boo boos (certainly no evidence of a "savage beating" IMO) and his stories via proxy, I , for one, do not find it logical that the GZ was the one screaming bloody murder, but believe it was Trayvon - the one terrified of being shot, silenced mid-scream by a bullet. (Unless Trayon had 4 arms, I don't see how he could have been beating GZ to just this side of "diapers," while simultaneously smothering him...all in a matter of about 60 seconds... And, I don't see how, if Trayvon had his hands over GZ's mouth, the cries for help weren't muffled, or interrupted).

Also, I do not view GZ with such rose-colored glasses, people are rarely so "black or white" and I don't think it can be disputed that with GZ, there are a lot of grey areas. Yes, GZ, may have done some volunteer work, but to point aspects of GZ's other side I'm interspersing a few comments of my own in with those of another poster who shares my belief that George isn't exactly a "good guy" -

Good guys don't lay their hands on women, or resist physically resist police, then brag about getting away with it. Former co-workers don't describe good guys as "bullies," or as "Jekyll and Hyde," nor would most good guys get fired from a job for being "too aggressive." Good guys don't commit crime(s), allowing their buddies to "get pinched" and do a year's time in jail for them. Good guys don't make racist comments on the internet, or to their coworkers. Good guys don't shoot a person dead, acting non-chalant about it seconds afterward, and immediately, with a cold heart, go into CYA mode, thinking it will just "blow over." Good guys don't try to justify their own horrible errors in judgment, and blame a dead 17 year old for his own death. Good guys listen to 911, and allow the police to do their jobs. Good guys expect and accept punishment when they do wrong, and they don't complain their life is in upheaval due to no fault of their own. Good guys don't create websites asking for donations, posting photos of racist and bigoted supporter's actions, and making out that they're an honorable person who did the right thing.

I believe what I've said about GZ here only scratches the surface. We have yet to see the whole of the prosecutor's evidence against GZ, in fact, we've seen less than half to date, and the most damning of it has been withheld and/or redacted.

 

[LambChop]

I never said TM was a . But Thugs are to blame for the suspicion that fel
on TM that night. GZ had every right to be concerned about a stranger who fit the demographic that was terrorizing that neighborhood. Inteviews with neighbors in an article I posted in another thread confirm that troubles with young Black teens was the "elephant in the living room" regarding this event. The speaker was a Black female neighbor.

I see no assertive tendencies. I believe Tm was the aggressor in the fight that resulted in GZ being beaten badly and TM being shot.

It's a tragedy not a crime.

I believe LE caught the person who was breaking into the homes shortly after February 2nd. So why was GZ concerned about TM when the person was already caught. It makes no sense. And tell me why GZ did not identify himself. He owed that to TM if his intention was to follow TM. SYG flys both ways. If TM feared for his life he had the same rights as GZ. TM's girlfriend claims TM was fearful. If the screams were TM we know he was fearful. jmo

 

[Alecto]

This is the man who wants you to believe he was screaming in terror 4 1/2 hours early from the taking of this picture because he got his face scratched. The brutal beating is shown in full force with all the swelling from the brutal punches he sustained.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/george-zimmerman-photos_n_1526045.html

For people mocking the seriousness of GZ injuries like you are doing on I would like to know what exactly do you think makes you such an expert in what a person should like after a terrifying violent encounter?

I've been in real fights, trained combat sports, and MMA is the only sport I pay attention to, and I assure you countless people have been incapicated wih injuries less visibly severe then GZ's and in a real life encounter that experience would be legitimately terrifying for many. I suspect most people supporting your position would terrified if a stranger jumped on top of them and just started slapping them even if they weren't even injured at all. With multiple bruises and lacerations and a likely broken noise your rhetoric shows zero empathy for ALL victims of violent crime. A victim doesn't need to meet your imagined standards to have had genuine fear and the medical records are more then enough to establish that a beating took place.

About five seconds before the gunshot there is a very distinct scream/moan that isn't an actual call for help but sounds like a person making an "ooh" tyoe sound from being injured. That scream can only be reasonably matched to a person who was injured. Since TM has no injuries it really doesn't make any sense that the screamer was TM.

Since TM was uninjured and the best eyewitness has him on top beating GZ "MMA style" why would he have been screaming for help and making sounds like he was being injured?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

For people mocking the seriousness of GZ injuries like you are doing on I would like to know what exactly do you think makes you such an expert in what a person should like after a terrifying violent encounter?

I've been in real fights, trained combat sports, and MMA is the only sport I pay attention to, and I assure you countless people have been incapicated wih injuries less visibly severe then GZ's and in a real life encounter that experience would be legitimately terrifying for many. I suspect most people supporting your position would terrified if a stranger jumped on top of them and just started slapping them even if they weren't even injured at all. With multiple bruises and lacerations and a likely broken noise your rhetoric shows zero empathy for ALL victims of violent crime. A victim doesn't need to meet your imagined standards to have had genuine fear and the medical records are more then enough to establish that a beating took place.

About five seconds before the gunshot there is a very distinct scream/moan that isn't an actual call for help but sounds like a person making an "ooh" tyoe sound from being injured. That scream can only be reasonably matched to a person who was injured. Since TM has no injuries it really doesn't make any sense that the screamer was TM.

Since TM was uninjured and the best eyewitness has him on top beating GZ "MMA style" why would he have been screaming for help and making sounds like he was being injured?

Well I have to admit less then 1 second before that shot I hear a person yell help plain as day.

This person who says it was MMA style did he write that in his police report? Is there a recording he did at some time after his police report?

Is this the person who at first claimed he knew who was yelling? He saw the style of attack from 30 feet away in the dark? imo

 

[LambChop]

I believe that what people are trying to do is figure out where these injuries came from because there are experts who say it was not GZ on the 911 tapes doing the screaming and other experts and LE are saying the injuries are not consistent with GZ head being constantly bashed against the cement as he claims. If LE can question it I think it's probably safe to say we should question it also. jmo

 

[Dr.Fessel]

For people mocking the seriousness of GZ injuries like you are doing on I would like to know what exactly do you think makes you such an expert in what a person should like after a terrifying violent encounter?

I've been in real fights, trained combat sports, and MMA is the only sport I pay attention to, and I assure you countless people have been incapicated wih injuries less visibly severe then GZ's and in a real life encounter that experience would be legitimately terrifying for many. I suspect most people supporting your position would terrified if a stranger jumped on top of them and just started slapping them even if they weren't even injured at all. With multiple bruises and lacerations and a likely broken noise your rhetoric shows zero empathy for ALL victims of violent crime. A victim doesn't need to meet your imagined standards to have had genuine fear and the medical records are more then enough to establish that a beating took place.

About five seconds before the gunshot there is a very distinct scream/moan that isn't an actual call for help but sounds like a person making an "ooh" tyoe sound from being injured. That scream can only be reasonably matched to a person who was injured. Since TM has no injuries it really doesn't make any sense that the screamer was TM.

Since TM was uninjured and the best eyewitness has him on top beating GZ "MMA style" why would he have been screaming for help and making sounds like he was being injured?

BBM

I am not mocking, I am just pointing there are no serious injuries on George Zimmerman in that picture. I have see 5 year olds in fights with more serious injuries. imo