The footprints/shoeprints on the balcony

[SunnieRN]

Cynic and everyone else, the balcony railing was 38" high, not 36. This two more inches makes it even less likely Rebecca went over the way LE stated.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/26/rebecca-zahau-case-floorplans-and-yet-more-issues/#more-8042

 

[SmoothOperator]

Hey guys I just wanted to share this awesome detailed description of why Adam would not have needed a wooden table to cut Rebecca down.. Have to give props to an awesome commentor on Coronado Patch.. Take a look:

 

[SmoothOperator]

I don't want to be graphic, but where ever it was she died, wouldn't there be bodily fluids?

You know what that is a very good point!! When a person dies, especially under certain circumstances the body expels urine and feces.. This is true.. I'm going to look more into this.. Thanks for bringing up this excellent point!!

 

[SunnieRN]

Hey guys I just wanted to share this awesome detailed description of why Adam would not have needed a wooden table to cut Rebecca down.. Have to give props to an awesome commentor on Coronado Patch.. Take a look:

Hi Smooth Operator, moving this post also!! Thanks!!

 

[SmoothOperator]

According to what I've found thus far is yes, if there is urine or feces in the body upon death it is expelled.. Especially in a violent death from what I can tell..

The signs of death include such things as no breathing, no heartbeat, release of bowel and bladder, no response, eyelids slightly open, pupils enlarged, eyes fixed on a certain spot, no blinking, jaw relaxed and mouth slightly open

http://www.hospicenet.org/html/preparing_for.html

 

[sundrop]

Not sure where you are getting your numbers from. Adam was 5' 11"

Rebecca was 63.5 inches plus the 26. 5 inches victim was off ground = 90 inches = 8 feet.

Considering Adam's arm reach and standing on tip toes most people I know that are 5' 11" cannot stretch and touch your average 8 foot house ceiling. And, the rope was cut above victim's head which is even higher.

 

[Sharyne]

You know what that is a very good point!! When a person dies, especially under certain circumstances the body expels urine and feces.. This is true.. I'm going to look more into this.. Thanks for bringing up this excellent point!!

You're welcome. I remember following another case where a body was found and some posters kept commenting on how there were none found under the body, so figured it had been placed there at a different point in time or moved a short distance away.

 

[greenpalm]

Hey guys I just wanted to share this awesome detailed description of why Adam would not have needed a wooden table to cut Rebecca down.. Have to give props to an awesome commentor on Coronado Patch.. Take a look:

I assumed that he pulled the table under Rebecca, to take the weight off the rope and so she wouldn't drop to the ground when he cut her down. That's the way I read it anyway. Or maybe I just interpreted it that way, because my cat once hung herself by catching the S hook in her collar on the cording of the window blinds. I came home and she was hanging unconscious. The first thing I did before trying to cut her down (or untangle her) was to pull a chair over to the window and under her feet, to get the weight off of her neck and give me time to un hook the collar. Also, taking the weight off released the tension in the cord and made it easier to work with. She was fine, and lived another 15 years. Just used up one of her nine lives I guess. She had bitten through the metal blinds: left little bloody puncture marks where she cut up her gums biting straight through it, and the painted wooden window sill was all scratched up too

 

[rosemary]

Ah, good catch. I think given the working backwards with the rope length theory, the fact that lividity was set in her back not in her feet or legs, she was hit on the head 4 times, the extra shoeprints, the dust disturbance not matching her waist, not fathoming how she heaved herself over being bound, and dust on her thigh ...

I'll propose that she was murdered first, perhaps suffocated in addition to being hit (maybe that shirt was not just a gag), after she died she was tossed over the balcony to make it look like a hanging by suicide - her hip just didn't quite clear the railing (although I still don't think that looks like a suicide maybe someone did!).

I still have problems with the whole Adam cutting her down scenario though as I mentioned in the "Case for Murder" thread.

but wasn't Rebecca alive when she fell from the balcony? i don't know if my interpretation of it was accurate, but that's the impression I got from reading the hinky meter review of Rebecca's autopsy report.

 

[jjenny]

but wasn't Rebecca alive when she fell from the balcony? i don't know if my interpretation of it was accurate, but that's the impression I got from reading the hinky meter review of Rebecca's autopsy report.

I believe LE said she was alive but how would they know? She was dead for hours before cut down and then lay there for some more hours. How can it be decided if she was alive or dead when she fell from the balcony?

 

[Quester]

Here is another look at the railing:

In RZ's AR, wasn't there dirt/dust noted on her left thigh?

Looking at photo #1, I wonder if the center of of the red ovals at 19.5" and 28" (distance=8.5") is the distance between the front center of RZ's thighs?

MOO & TIA

 

[cynic]

Cynic and everyone else, the balcony railing was 38" high, not 36. This two more inches makes it even less likely Rebecca went over the way LE stated.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/26/rebecca-zahau-case-floorplans-and-yet-more-issues/#more-8042

Valhall over at Hinky Meter has provided this case with some excellent analysis.
IMO, however, there is a problem with the 38” that has been attributed to the railing height.
I believe that the entire balcony structure height is 38” and this includes the approximately 2” of base which is comprised of the floor and subfloor grid. The height of the railing alone, IOW, is 36.”
I based this on multiple comparisons with known measurements, including the forensic evidence ruler and a tape measure.
With the much appreciated addition of floor plans from Hinky Meter, I also used the scale reference of 8 feet to compare to the balcony. This produced the same result, 38” overall and 36” for the railing alone.

From the floor plans:

Below, a tape measure marking 38 inches was used to estimate the height

The balcony is broken up into a 2” base along with the railing which consists or two 6” sections and a 24” section

Evidence ruler confirms the 6” section referenced above:

 

[SunnieRN]

Cynic, I apologize. How could I have ever doubted you!!! Shame on me!!!

 

[deanna82437]

Not sure where you are getting your numbers from. Adam was 5' 11"

Rebecca was 63.5 inches plus the 26. 5 inches victim was off ground = 90 inches = 8 feet.

Considering Adam's arm reach and standing on tip toes most people I know that are 5' 11" cannot stretch and touch your average 8 foot house ceiling. And, the rope was cut above victim's head which is even higher.

Did you read somewhere that Adam is 5' 11"? Several people have been wondering about his height. Do you have a link to that info? It would be much appreciated if you do! TIA

 

[justice be served]

I believe LE said she was alive but how would they know? She was dead for hours before cut down and then lay there for some more hours. How can it be decided if she was alive or dead when she fell from the balcony?

jjenny - I so agree and further, what do you surmise would be the compelling reason to indicate that she was alive prior to going over the balcony? Again, it makes me think there is a reason for LE's specificity about her being alive prior to the hanging? It seems too contrived to mention that.

 

[SunnieRN]

jjenny - I so agree and further, what do you surmise would be the compelling reason to indicate that she was alive prior to going over the balcony? Again, it makes me think there is a reason for LE's specificity about her being alive prior to the hanging? It seems too contrived to mention that.

Well, she wouldn't have been able to commit suicide if she was dead prior to being tossed over the balcony. :innocent:

This case makes me so angry!!

 

[justice be served]

Well, she wouldn't have been able to commit suicide if she was dead prior to being tossed over the balcony. :innocent:

This case makes me so angry!!

Thanks Sunny. So, you think that LE wanted to ensure that all of their information pointed to suicide -- then that makes sense why (with no proven scientific evidence) they would say Rebecca was alive when she went over the railing. Well, then let's see the evidence of that! Not just any evidence but IRONCLAD evidence! Yes, this case makes me angry and sick.:sick:

 

[defense101]

I think AS would still have needed something in order to get the height to cut the rope and the table was the only thing handy, it would be interesting to see pictures of the yard from that day to see if chairs were available. Even if he was 6' I think it would be tough to do, as well LE really could only make an estimation of how far off the ground RZ was because they didn't do a recreation did they?

 

[jjenny]

jjenny - I so agree and further, what do you surmise would be the compelling reason to indicate that she was alive prior to going over the balcony? Again, it makes me think there is a reason for LE's specificity about her being alive prior to the hanging? It seems too contrived to mention that.

I think because she had petechiae they believe she died from hanging. But presence of petechiae could death not just by hanging but also by strangulation or smothering. In fact if compression of the neck was complete as one might expect in a 9 ft long drop, then petechiae would not necessarily develop. So I really don't know how they can be sure she was alive before going over the balcony.

 

[rosemary]

okay this is what I got from the hinky meter review of Rebecca's autopsy:

The petechiae and congestion (Page 5 of the autopsy “external description” ) noted on the eyes, eye lids, face, lips, mucosa of the mouth and gums, as well as the engorgement of the head and face structures, indicate that her heart was beating for a few minutes as she died from strangulation, and then a sudden slowing and stopping of the heartbeat from stimulation of both carotid sinuses from the ligature, as well as ongoing anoxia (“no oxygen” ). It is my understanding that manual (using hands) strangulation will produce hyoid bone fractures, and some petechiae in the eyes or lids, but rarely will cause the entire face and head to have petechiae. It would be hard for even a strong person to continue the pressure with their hands that long, past 10 minutes. (Try just clenching your fist for that long– your arms will fatigue after a few minutes.) And fracturing the thyroid cartilage takes some serious force.

Page 14 states there is no cerebral (brain) swelling. This is important, because to have brain swelling from a lack of oxygen, you have to survive the lack of oxygen occurrence long enough for the swelling to occur. The absence of cerebral edema says she was not anoxic (without oxygen) very long before her heart stopped beating, and she died.

Her injuries are very consistent with a drop of that length, as opposed to being staged into a noose from the ground below.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/08/rebecca-zahau-case-a-review-of-the-autopsy-report/

Based on that info at hinky meter, that's why I thought that Rebecca had been alive prior to her hanging. I wasn't relying on info provided by the LE at all, they've given me enough reasons to doubt them so I have a hard time taking in what they say at face value. I was thinking she had been knocked out first which would explain the subgaleal hemorrhages and then thrown over the balcony while unconscious, rather than being killed first and then hung over the balcony.