The garrote points to........

[Whaleshark]

But Kolar said that JonBenet died 90 minutes** after the head blow. I thought that meant that it took 90 minutes before she was strangled. So how could the strangulation happened close to the same time as the head blow?

***I think 90 minutes was the correct time.

Ok, is there a direct quote on this from the book? I cannot argue about what he said till I see it in print, or have the quote from the book myself, which I don't have as of yet...

But I know that before, it was argued a window of time, up to about the 90 minutes, not exactly 90 minutes...

But ok, even if it was done that much time after the head blow, to cover up the head blow, she wasn't dead though, yet, right, as per the petechial hemorrages, and other indicators as noted in the autopsy that the strangulation also contributed to her death?

So, maybe it could be looked at as BOTH:

1) Part of the cause of death, AND
2) Also staging to cover up the initial cause of injury leading to death.

Because it wasn't JUST staging -- the strangulation, that is (if it was staging)... maybe that's where the clarification needs to be made. If it WAS staging to cover up the head blow and look as if the strangulation was the ONLY cause of death, you can't call it ONLY staging, because the autopsy information shows that she was not dead when she was strangled - the strangulation led to her death as well.

Agreed?

 

[txsvicki]

I'm not so sure the vaginal assault was staging since it's thought that jonbenet had been assaulted at least once before.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, are you forgetting that the evidence has suggested the headbash came first and/or close to the same time as the strangulation?

Probably the first or main cause of death in the first place.

Cause of death is the head bash combined with strangulation/asphyxiation.

If that's what killed her, that's not really staging, now is it?

Whaleshark,
The wine-cellar is a fake crime-scene its meant to deceive you, this includes JonBenet's injuries.

I think JonBenet was strangled twice, this is why there is a circumferential furrow and trauma lying beneath it. I reckon someone basically, probably Patsy, staged the second strangulation, by adding the piece of broken paintbrush, making it tight around her neck, thereby causing her death?

I do not know if the person who killed JonBenet knew if she was still alive, but there was a time gap between the head injury and the terminal asphyxiation. This suggests to me they thought the head injury had served its purpose?

She was likely internally assaulted by the remaining piece of paintbrush, Steve Thomas refers to splinters of wood being found inside her, and Coroner Meyer refers to birefringent material wich is likely to be cellulose or wood.

Now from what Coroner Meyer stated verbatim he thought JonBenet had sustained both sexual contact and digital penetration is that medical phraseology for abuse, you decide?


I think someone whacked JonBenet on the head with the intention of delivering an injury that might suggest why she would be found dead?

And this person may not be one of the parents.

Obviously I am speculating, but it looks like someone was sexually abusing JonBenet, she complained, and probably raised her voice, her abuser grabbed her around the neck, thereby choking her and causing her to become comatose.

The rest is staging with elements, as per the forensic evidence, from all three R's.


.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm not so sure the vaginal assault was staging since it's thought that jonbenet had been assaulted at least once before.

txsvicki,
There may have been both, e.g. an attempt at faking an assault using the paintbrush handle, and a prior acute assault, described by Coroner Meyer as digital penetration.

Some results were redacted from the Autopsy Report, and the use of the paintbrush, since a piece is still missing, could be one such result?


.

 

[Whaleshark]

Whaleshark,
The wine-cellar is a fake crime-scene its meant to deceive you, this includes JonBenet's injuries.

I think JonBenet was strangled twice, this is why there is a circumferential furrow and trauma lying beneath it. I reckon someone basically, probably Patsy, staged the second strangulation, by adding the piece of broken paintbrush, making it tight around her neck, thereby causing her death?

I do not know if the person who killed JonBenet knew if she was still alive, but there was a time gap between the head injury and the terminal asphyxiation. This suggests to me they thought the head injury had served its purpose?

She was likely internally assaulted by the remaining piece of paintbrush, Steve Thomas refers to splinters of wood being found inside her, and Coroner Meyer refers to birefringent material wich is likely to be cellulose or wood.

Now from what Coroner Meyer stated verbatim he thought JonBenet had sustained both sexual contact and digital penetration is that medical phraseology for abuse, you decide?


I think someone whacked JonBenet on the head with the intention of delivering an injury that might suggest why she would be found dead?

And this person may not be one of the parents.

Obviously I am speculating, but it looks like someone was sexually abusing JonBenet, she complained, and probably raised her voice, her abuser grabbed her around the neck, thereby choking her and causing her to become comatose.

The rest is staging with elements, as per the forensic evidence, from all three R's
.

I know we've talked about this before....

I don't know that the whole wine cellar scene was staged, as we've also discussed before, but rather the body staged - to look like she was kidnapped - and the cellar a dumping / hiding spot.

I also don't know for sure that it's determined she was strangled twice, although I know you believe that....as well as you believe the same of her other injuries.

I'm just not sure that all her injuries occurred as you say, were all staging only, and everything involved due to staging.

Again, I know that you are sure of that though..

But criminy, UKGuy, something has to be part of the actual incident and original cause of her injury/injuries, and need to cover up for something in the first place.

 

[txsvicki]

In trying to figure out what a troubled kid might do i could see one hitting another in the head then trying to wake her with something that woke her or caused a painful reaction before. The otrack jabs and the jab with paintbrush handle. When she still wouldn't rouse the cord around the neck could have been an attempt to pull her into a hiding spot which strangled. I am probably way off base but trying to see how the original perpetrator could have done the injuries but not any cleanup or ransom note.

 

[UKGuy]

I know we've talked about this before....

I don't know that the whole wine cellar scene was staged, as we've also discussed before, but rather the body staged - to look like she was kidnapped - and the cellar a dumping / hiding spot.

I also don't know for sure that it's determined she was strangled twice, although I know you believe that....as well as you believe the same of her other injuries.

I'm just not sure that all her injuries occurred as you say, were all staging only, and everything involved due to staging.

Again, I know that you are sure of that though..

But criminy, UKGuy, something has to be part of the actual incident and original cause of her injury/injuries, and need to cover up for something in the first place.

Whaleshark,
The wine-cellar was staged, not in the theatrical sense, but in what objects were placed into the wine-cellar. The R's knew these would be found, e.g. the partially opened Christmas gifts, Patsy says she opened them, and Kolar suggests something else. JonBenet's Barbie Gown or the Barbie Doll, there was no need for these things to be in a damp, dark, dusty cellar, situated at the bottom of the house. So by removing them from the original location, the R's are indirectly staging the absent location. That is you view it differently, or from their perspective you just ignore it, consider BR's bedroom?

I'm just not sure that all her injuries occurred as you say, were all staging only, and everything involved due to staging.

I'm not certain either, but we have a staged crime-scene, so it seems the best approach is to assume everything is staged until we have evidence to the contrary?

Obviously there was an original assault which I am suggesting was sexual, followed up by a manual strangulation, that was probably not intended to be lethal, simply to silence JonBenet, but the pressure was held for too long, and JonBenet collapsed into a coma?

One thing that seems out of character is the head trauma. How come it follows on from a sexual assault, it usually happens in reverse?

So the perpetrator is assaulting JonBenet, she lets out a yell, so the perpetrator thinks, "Oh I'll just bash her on the head, problem solved", somehow I think not.

The head injury might be accidental it might not. Others have suggested to me that the force inflicted exceeds that from falling to the ground. So I'm positing the head injury as the first attempt at staging, and this may have been attempted by the perpetrator unsuccessfully, with no visible sign of death, and red marks on her neck. The decision was taken to apply the ligature and paintbrush handle, so to represent an obvious cause of death. This may have been done in tandem with a secondary internal assault, so obscure the original assault?

I don't know that the whole wine cellar scene was staged, as we've also discussed before, but rather the body staged - to look like she was kidnapped - and the cellar a dumping / hiding spot.

Except she was never kidnapped, she was according to Coroner Meyer acutely sexually assaulted, so who do you reckon redressed JonBenet?

There will be stuff in that wine-cellar that we do not know about. Just what was a Barbie Doll doing in there, how does that relate to JonBenet, it obviously has significance otherwise it would not have been removed from its original location.


.

 

[otg]

txsvicki,
There may have been both, e.g. an attempt at faking an assault using the paintbrush handle, and a prior acute assault, described by Coroner Meyer as digital penetration.

Some results were redacted from the Autopsy Report, and the use of the paintbrush, since a piece is still missing, could be one such result?

.

UKG:
When the AR was first released, it did have some redacted sections. But later (and I don't remember exactly when), the complete unredacted report was released. In fact, Smoking Gun has an exact copy of the actual report:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/coroner-jonbenet-ramsey-autopsy

Also, when he did the autopsy, Meyer didn't know what caused the vaginal injuries, and he didn't speculate about what it might have been. He simply stated that the injuries were "consistent with digital penetration". That doesn't mean he was trying to say there was digital penetration prior to the use of the paintbrush, because at the time he didn't know what had been used. That wasn't known until the lab analysis confirmed that the "birefringent foreign material" he found inside her was consistent with the wood in the paintbrush (which wasn't confirmed to us until Kolar's book).

Everyone:
The end of the paintbrush was not left in JonBenet! It's missing! Only one living person knows what happened to it, because it probably left the house in a golf bag.
.

 

[UKGuy]

UKG:
When the AR was first released, it did have some redacted sections. But later (and I don't remember exactly when), the complete unredacted report was released. In fact, Smoking Gun has an exact copy of the actual report:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/coroner-jonbenet-ramsey-autopsy

Also, when he did the autopsy, Meyer didn't know what caused the vaginal injuries, and he didn't speculate about what it might have been. He simply stated that the injuries were "consistent with digital penetration". That doesn't mean he was trying to say there was digital penetration prior to the use of the paintbrush, because at the time he didn't know what had been used. That wasn't known until the lab analysis confirmed that the "birefringent foreign material" he found inside her was consistent with the wood in the paintbrush (which wasn't confirmed to us until Kolar's book).

Everyone:
The end of the paintbrush was not left in JonBenet! It's missing! Only one living person knows what happened to it, because it probably left the house in a golf bag.
.

otg,

When the AR was first released, it did have some redacted sections. But later (and I don't remember exactly when), the complete unredacted report was released. In fact, Smoking Gun has an exact copy of the actual report:

Sure, and from memory what was published was based on the Court's judgement. What I am suggesting is that some evidence never even made it to the Autopsy Report, e.g. Digital Penetration. Coroner Meyer is experienced enought to know what to leave out, and the missing piece of paintbrush is one such item, that is, only known to the killer. It might have left the house, it might not, we do not know?

Also, when he did the autopsy, Meyer didn't know what caused the vaginal injuries, and he didn't speculate about what it might have been. He simply stated that the injuries were "consistent with digital penetration".

But Coroner Meyer offered his best shot, which was also qualified: digital penetration and Sexual Contact. Now those two observations can be ran together or you can consider them as separate events.

As separate events you can have the secondary injury, allegedly inflicted by the paintbrush, also the alleged source for the wood splinters, as being consistent with a Digital Penetration in the sense the paintbrush resembles a human digit.

The other event: Sexual Contact is self-explanatory and is the acute assault. Which I reckon occurred first.

Alternatively you can conflate both events to represent a sexual assault inflicted by a human digit?

I seriously doubt Coroner Meyer considered the use of the paintbrush handle as representing Sexual Contact

Coroner Meyer when offering his opinion would have chosen his words carefully.

Everyone:
The end of the paintbrush was not left in JonBenet! It's missing! Only one living person knows what happened to it, because it probably left the house in a golf bag.
.

How do you know? Do you think a piece of the paintbrush was used to internally assault JonBenet?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

It s very easy to see how the head trauma followed the sexual assault. The sexual assault was painful enough to make her scream. She was bashed on the head to shut her up.

 

[txsvicki]

Since many experts believe sexual assault happened previously., she must have screamed at that time and could have gotten someone into big trouble or threatened to tell. The head bash could have been in anger then the sexual assualt done in more anger.

 

[txsvicki]

Gosh., i'm having trouble with editing the above post. I worded poorly and meant to say that any previous assault should have brought about screaming and crying and already gotten the perpetrator into trouble. That could have resulted in a lot of anger.

 

[hetty]

Tsvicki, thats a REALLY good point about the possibility of her being jabbed with the train tracks, hence the marks, in order to try and rouse her..makes a lot of sense imo.

 

[madeleine]

otg,

Sure, and from memory what was published was based on the Court's judgement. What I am suggesting is that some evidence never even made it to the Autopsy Report, e.g. Digital Penetration. Coroner Meyer is experienced enought to know what to leave out, and the missing piece of paintbrush is one such item, that is, only known to the killer. It might have left the house, it might not, we do not know?



But Coroner Meyer offered his best shot, which was also qualified: digital penetration and Sexual Contact. Now those two observations can be ran together or you can consider them as separate events.

As separate events you can have the secondary injury, allegedly inflicted by the paintbrush, also the alleged source for the wood splinters, as being consistent with a Digital Penetration in the sense the paintbrush resembles a human digit.

The other event: Sexual Contact is self-explanatory and is the acute assault. Which I reckon occurred first.

Alternatively you can conflate both events to represent a sexual assault inflicted by a human digit?

I seriously doubt Coroner Meyer considered the use of the paintbrush handle as representing Sexual Contact

Coroner Meyer when offering his opinion would have chosen his words carefully.


How do you know? Do you think a piece of the paintbrush was used to internally assault JonBenet?


.

IMO the paintbrush was not used to assault her,the injuries would have been way more serious.I think the splinters ended up there by transfer,the one who broke/touched the brush digitally penetrated her then?one possibility

ETA:the splinters could also have been transferred when she was wiped down with that cloth

 

[UKGuy]

It s very easy to see how the head trauma followed the sexual assault. The sexual assault was painful enough to make her scream. She was bashed on the head to shut her up.

DeeDee249,
Could be, why bash her on the head, why not place your hand over her mouth?

Also assuming this was not the first time, what was different, which led directly to JonBenet's death?

According to Kolar it all took place within a 90 minute timeframe. So assuming BDI thats how long it took before the wine-cellar staging began. So maybe she was dead before 12:00 that night?

So thats approximately 5-hours to wait until the next morning, and to check over the staging, for me something does not quite add up, including the pineapple snack not being cleaned up by say Patsy?


.

 

[UKGuy]

IMO the paintbrush was not used to assault her,the injuries would have been way more serious.I think the splinters ended up there by transfer,the one who broke/touched the brush digitally penetrated her then?one possibility

ETA:the splinters could also have been transferred when she was wiped down with that cloth

madeleine,
You could be correct. But why digitally penetrate JonBenet after killing her, is it staging?

Assuming Patsy asphyxiated JonBenet, why would she internally assault her?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Tsvicki, thats a REALLY good point about the possibility of her being jabbed with the train tracks, hence the marks, in order to try and rouse her..makes a lot of sense imo.

hetty,
Or even as staging, to make it look as if someone physically assaulted JonBenet?

Did John not originally state he and Burke played in the train-room, or with a train-set, on returning from the White's?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

madeleine,
You could be correct. But why digitally penetrate JonBenet after killing her, is it staging?

Assuming Patsy asphyxiated JonBenet, why would she internally assault her?


.

Bruising in the vagina places at least some of the penetration occurring when she was alive.

 

[UKGuy]

Bruising in the vagina places at least some of the penetration occurring when she was alive.

DeeDee249,
Sure and this makes distinguishing any staging from acute assault difficult.


.

 

[OpenMind4U]

DeeDee249,
Sure and this makes distinguishing any staging from acute assault difficult.


.

It would be nice to encapsulate all evidences of the 'staging' into one list. But I'm sure it'll be absolutely impossible based on so many interpretations of the multi-fauceted evidences. The above subject is one of them. For example: let's talk about the LAST sexual assult. Based on AR we know what kind of acute vaginal damage has been done. The evidence of the blood was found. The evidence of the digital penetration was suggested. Even the evidence of let say the 'foreign' material left from (pick one!) the painbrush or transfers from painbrush or/and some kind of task powder from the rubber gloves has been found.

So, if the LAST sexual assult was part of the 'staging' then why wipe it off, change the panties and make it looks like nothing sexual happens during the 'kidnapping'? If the LAST sexual assult was NOT part of the 'staging' then all the above described actions will fit RN perfectly. So, it's IMHO that the last sexual assult was NOT part of the 'staging'. But of course, as many people we have on WS as many different 'staging list' will be compiled!...