The Importance of the Pineapple

[sissi]

'You can't handle the truth'!!

I had a hard time believing the parent's were involved but the more I read about this case, the more I had to realise that they not only know what happened, a Ramsey was more than likely directly involved in the death of JonBenét.
Then I convinced myself that it must have been an accident and I ran with that for quite a time.
Now I'm pretty much convinced that JBR's death was premeditated.
Someone wanted that little girl dead and someone is getting away with murder.

I do agree Narlacat, perhaps she was being molested by a close friend, an employee, or a Santa, and it was imperative that she be killed before leaving Boulder for a holiday. Out of "his" control is not something that would "do".

 

[aussiesheila]

If memory serves, no traces of any drugs were found in JB's body.

There were no traces of the drugs that were tested for, that is true rashomon. However, just what drugs were tested for we don't know. We only know that ethanol was tested for and not detected and that a blood drug screen was done, but for what drugs exactly we don't know, we can only guess that it was for the most commonly used ones. Very likely pedophiles are well up on the very latest drugs for which no test has been developed yet, just as are the so-called drug cheats at the Olympics. A drug is not detected if a specific test for it has not been performed even if it is there in abundance.

Not to mention the inane scenario that an intruder would have had the nerve to feed JB pineapple in her own house at Christmas, with her whole family in that house, and then wait for an hour until it had left her stomach and wandered into the small intestine. Totally idiotic.

I don't see what is inane or idiotic about suggesting that Santa fed JonBenet drugged pineapple. JonBenet apparently loved fresh pineapple, a fact that Santa would have made it his business to find out. She apparently idolised Santa and most likely would have eaten almost anything if he had encouraged her to do so. And food doesn't 'wander' into the small intestine after ingestion rashomon. It arrives there in a predictable time, after remaining in the stomach for a predictable time during which time a suitable drug could have been absorbed into the bloodstream and exert its desired effect in a predictable time.

 

[Eagle1]

Don't know about drugs, but McSanta had quite a few notches on his celtic harp representing children he'd known who died! Anyone remember exactly how many?

I don't have any opinion about how many were there when she died, either. POSSIBLY a whole group of "friends", or possibly only one or two actually in the room to witness such bizarre behavior. . I think the walker arriving before dark probably turned off the outside light that was usually left on, according to a neighbor, all night, but he may not have actually known who hired him and may or may not have been still there.

 

[rashomon]

I don't see what is inane or idiotic about suggesting that Santa fed JonBenet drugged pineapple. JonBenet apparently loved fresh pineapple, a fact that Santa would have made it his business to find out. She apparently idolised Santa and most likely would have eaten almost anything if he had encouraged her to do so. And food doesn't 'wander' into the small intestine after ingestion rashomon. It arrives there in a predictable time, after remaining in the stomach for a predictable time during which time a suitable drug could have been absorbed into the bloodstream and exert its desired effect in a predictable time.

I used 'wander' a little sarcastically because the whole scenario is so idiotic in itself. So you think Santa would have wandered around (again, I'm using 'wander' sarcastically here!) in the JB home without any fear of being detected, fed JB pineapple and waited for an hour before proceeding to molest her? How could he know Patsy and John wouldn't notice he was there? This is absurd beyond description.
And if he killed her, what would be the point in writing a ransom note at all? Why not just leave the house as soon as possible?
In addition, the ransom note with its political mesage doesn't add up with a pedophile scenario. Don't you realize that nothing adds up here and just screams poor staging?
At least poster Blue Crab seems to have abandoned his totally absurd "JB was hogtied and posed" scenario, and read what Delmar England said about those ridiculous ligatures around JB's hands, which didn't even serve the purpose of functioning ligatures.
Why people will prefer the figment of their own imagination over analyzing the evidence which is there and which just screams the Ramseys are guilty is beyond me.

 

[aussiesheila]

I used 'wander' a little sarcastically because the whole scenario is so idiotic in itself. So you think Santa would have wandered around (again, I'm using 'wander' sarcastically here!) in the JB home without any fear of being detected, fed JB pineapple and waited for an hour before proceeding to molest her? How could he know Patsy and John wouldn't notice he was there? This is absurd beyond description.
And if he killed her, what would be the point in writing a ransom note at all? Why not just leave the house as soon as possible?
In addition, the ransom note with its political mesage doesn't add up with a pedophile scenario. Don't you realize that nothing adds up here and just screams poor staging?
At least poster Blue Crab seems to have abandoned his totally absurd "JB was hogtied and posed" scenario, and read what Delmar England said about those ridiculous ligatures around JB's hands, which didn't even serve the purpose of functioning ligatures.
Why people will prefer the figment of their own imagination over analyzing the evidence which is there and which just screams the Ramseys are guilty is beyond me.

Actually rashomon, I think Santa was let in by Patsy, so he wasn't worried about her at all. He would have had reason to be worried about John though, and he was taking a risk there I think, but he must have known from talking to Patsy, that John slept very soundly and figured the risk was low.

I believe John was asleep by around 10, so Patsy probably let Santa in around 10.30. I'm guessing they had JonBenet up by 11 and that Patsy was dozing off by 12. I think Santa fed her the pineapple between 11.30 and 12.30 and then took her down to the basement at the same time letting the others in. I think the abuse had begun by 1 am and went on for perhaps as long as 2 hours at which point someone penetrated her with something sharp causing her to scream loudly. I think it was at this point that those present panicked and did seriously fear they would be detected, and to silence her the one holding the ligature pulled it so tight it strangled her, and another one picked up a baseball bat and crashed it down on her skull. I don't think it was the feeble Santa who manipulated the ligature, nor do I think he was the one who swung the baseball bat, but I do think he was the one who 'lovingly' wrapped her in the blanket. I think the scream woke Patsy and they found out from her that John was still sound asleep.

I think they wrote the ransom note because it was pretty obvious that JonBenet had undergone a session of sexual abuse prior to her death and they knew that if they left the body there to be found by LE, even if they all left immediately, they would be up for murder. So I think they wrote the ransom note and hid the body where they did not think it would be found and could remain hidden until they could dispose of in the mountains where hopefully it would not be found before decomposition had wiped away the evidence of sexual abuse, then the murder could be put down to a botched kidnapping. Unfortunately for them the body was found and the neck ligature and the wrist bindings were still in evidence, as was the sexual abuse. As for the content of the ransom note "with its political mesage doesn't add up with a pedophile scenario", what is this supposed to mean? What sort of message do you think would have added up to a pedophile scenario?

Now you say my scenario is ludicrous, I would like to say that that is exactly my opinion of the theory that either John or Patsy killed JonBenet.

First of all, the tightening of that ligature and that head wound were exceptionally violently executed and with great strength. There is no way that Patsy would have been strong enough to inflict either of those wounds and while John would have been strong enough to inflict the neck wound, there is no way anyone could have caused that head wound with a torch or bashing against the bath. Even a small child's skull would require a very heavy implement to have been swung at it to have caused the amount of crushing that was inflicted on JonBenet. I think that given that all that has come to light regarding John's psychological makeup from interviews plus thorough investigations into his past by LE, there is no way anyone could seriously consider such a man being capable perpetrating such horrific physical or sexual attacks on any child.

Secondly, the RDI theory does not adequately explain the way the wrists were tied. At least BlueCrab made an attempt to explain the unusual way they were bound, all the other RDI proponents simply ignore it, presumably because they have no way to explain it and have it logically fit in with their theory.

These are just two of the reasons why I believe the RDI theory is ludicrous.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I'm an RDI, and here's my theory about the head wound and wrist-tying.

The wrists were not restrained during the abuse and strangling because the perp was her parent, and there was no need to restrain her wrists as she was obediently not fighting. Any tying done was done afterwards for staging.

As for the head wound - I believe the strangling came first, and the head injury was a part of the staging also. I think she was giving all appearance of being dead, and whoever strangled her bashed her on the head to make it look like an intruder. I have no idea what implement was used, but I think the force if it indicates the perp's anger at the child (I think she was being strangled as some twisted form of punishment, along with the molesting) as well as their desperation to create a plausible intruder scene to avoid jail.

I think only one of the Rs strangled JonBenet, but I think both J and P worked together on the staging. I suspect J did the dirtier work while P wrote the ransom note.

 

[Eagle1]

I think PR's prints on the bowl were from her unloading the dishwasher and putting the bowl away, Burke's from getting it down for JonBenet.

That McSanta having notches on his celtic harp representing child friends of his who died might suggest that he may have been there IF it was some kind of partial celtic sacrifice, but that neither he nor the R's were strong enough or vicious enough to have killed JBR in this way.

First of all, the tightening of that ligature and that head wound were exceptionally violently executed and with great strength. There is no way that Patsy would have been strong enough to inflict either of those wounds and while John would have been strong enough to inflict the neck wound, there is no way anyone could have caused that head wound with a torch" (flashlight) " or bashing against the bath. Even a small child's skull would require a very heavy implement to have been swung at it to have caused the amount of crushing that was inflicted on JonBenet.
I think that given that all that has come to light regarding John's psychological makeup from interviews plus thorough investigations into his past by LE, there is no way anyone could seriously consider such a man being capable perpetrating such horrific physical or sexual attacks on any child. " .... End of quote.

Must agree that JR, both parents in fact, are very mild-mannered, and those among us who're also mild-mannered can't imagine either of them getting that angry. One RDI guy who's probably a pretty strong athletic type said he fears that in their shoes he would have been that violent. The vast majority of us wouldn't. And I think LE's opinions, including FBI, have to count for something. They have a lot more to go on than any of us, maybe even some evidence of an intruder or intruders that we haven't heard of.

I think the walker seen by the Barnhills before dark who probably turned off the outside light, was preceding someone who would be lurking in the house all evening, maybe the same one who spent a night in JonBenet's bed at Charlevoix, a neatnik the housekeepers never did see, just his suitcase and boots. Evidently there are some weirdo's who enjoy spending time in someone else's home, as if a member of that family.

We mentioned some of Charlie Manson's traits in other threads, and he was/is in Vaccaville, a medical facility, so I wonder exactly what his mental illness, or illnesses, plural, are called. If I don't forget, maybe I'll try another search, I'm so curious. He thought if he had others do his dirty work, he could claim he didn't kill anybody, and he had enough influence on his gang that they would kill so viciously. I want to know if that's what happened in the JBR case also, some mastermind with the same traits as Manson.

 

[aussiesheila]

I'm an RDI, and here's my theory about the head wound and wrist-tying.

The wrists were not restrained during the abuse and strangling because the perp was her parent, and there was no need to restrain her wrists as she was obediently not fighting. Any tying done was done afterwards for staging.

As for the head wound - I believe the strangling came first, and the head injury was a part of the staging also. I think she was giving all appearance of being dead, and whoever strangled her bashed her on the head to make it look like an intruder. I have no idea what implement was used, but I think the force if it indicates the perp's anger at the child (I think she was being strangled as some twisted form of punishment, along with the molesting) as well as their desperation to create a plausible intruder scene to avoid jail.

I think only one of the Rs strangled JonBenet, but I think both J and P worked together on the staging. I suspect J did the dirtier work while P wrote the ransom note.

Nuisanceposter, for starters I would just like you to expand on this statement - "Any tying done was done afterwards for staging." My question is - Do you think that after they had killed JonBenet, John tied JonBenet's wrists together to make it look like an intending kidnapper had done the tying?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Yes, that's right.

 

[rashomon]

We mentioned some of Charlie Manson's traits in other threads, and he was/is in Vaccaville, a medical facility, so I wonder exactly what his mental illness, or illnesses, plural, are called. If I don't forget, maybe I'll try another search, I'm so curious. He thought if he had others do his dirty work, he could claim he didn't kill anybody, and he had enough influence on his gang that they would kill so viciously. I want to know if that's what happened in the JBR case also, some mastermind with the same traits as Manson.

Manson himself had killed people too. Not in the Tate/LaBianca murders, but on other occasions.

 

[rashomon]

First of all, the tightening of that ligature and that head wound were exceptionally violently executed and with great strength. There is no way that Patsy would have been strong enough to inflict either of those wounds and while John would have been strong enough to inflict the neck wound, there is no way anyone could have caused that head wound with a torch" (flashlight) " or bashing against the bath. Even a small child's skull would require a very heavy implement to have been swung at it to have caused the amount of crushing that was inflicted on JonBenet.

I disagree. Anyone could have tied that knot around around JB's head. Tying such a knot requires no strength at all. The garrote apparatus attached to the knot was pure bogus and done only for staging purposes.
And just think about how many children die from skull fractures in tragic domestic violence cases. Skull fractures which were inflicted by parents being in a total rage. It is a known fact that a feeling of rage can amplify a person's strength immensely.

 

[aussiesheila]

Yes, that's right.

So Nuisanceposter, how do you explain the rather elaborate way in which the wrists were tied, with each wrist tied separately and the 15 inch length of cord between each wrist?

If the Ramseys were trying to tie the wrists as kidnapper might have done it, wouldn't they simply wrap the cord around and around the wrists so that they were bound tightly together and then make just the one large knot?

I don't think the wrist bindings look anything like what one might expect a kidnapper to use, nor do they look anything like what someone staging a kidnapping might use, they were far too complicated.

 

[aussiesheila]

I disagree. Anyone could have tied that knot around around JB's head. Tying such a knot requires no strength at all. The garrote apparatus attached to the knot was pure bogus and done only for staging purposes.

I was actually referring to the strength required to tighten the ligature to such an extent that it cut right into the skin around her neck.

And just think about how many children die from skull fractures in tragic domestic violence cases. Skull fractures which were inflicted by parents being in a total rage. It is a known fact that a feeling of rage can amplify a person's strength immensely.

Yes, but this was more than a skull fracture, it was more like a skull crushing - take another look at the autopsy photo - well beyond Patsy's capability IMO.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I don't think her hands were restrained during the molesting/strangling. I read several books about this case, ST's, DOI, Schiller's, Wecht's, and countless things online...and I'm not convinced there is enough evidence on JonBenet's wrists to show that she was tied and struggled during what happened to her. Same with the tape across her mouth - it didn't appear as though it had been present on her while she was alive, did not show signs of having been struggled against.

In my mind, the only way she did not need to be tied up and gagged while being assaulted and strangled is if the person doing such to her was someone that she was totally submissive to out of ingrained habit - one of her parents. I think Patsy killed her. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Patsy snapped and freaked out on her daughter late Christmas night and killed her, and then told John and they both did the staging.

I can't see any other explanation for the behavior of the Ramseys in this situation all these years other than one of them did it, and they have done nothing but lie and try to hinder investigation since. I certainly don't believe any intruder was responsible for what happened to that child. That laughable ransom note...she was cleaned up and redressed...the differing stories about what happened...whether Burke was awake or not...the pineapple. I think Ramseys act very guilty.

I think her wrists were tied like that to be confusing, and it worked. We're still questioning it today. It's pretty obvious to me that that set up with the rope over the sleeves and all the length and slack was never meant to restrain JonBenet's hands. As for complicated, people who sail learn complex knots. It becomes something you can do by rote.

 

[rashomon]

So Nuisanceposter, how do you explain the rather elaborate way in which the wrists were tied, with each wrist tied separately and the 15 inch length of cord between each wrist?

If the Ramseys were trying to tie the wrists as kidnapper might have done it, wouldn't they simply wrap the cord around and around the wrists so that they were bound tightly together and then make just the one large knot?

I don't think the wrist bindings look anything like what one might expect a kidnapper to use, nor do they look anything like what someone staging a kidnapping might use, they were far too complicated.

"Elaborate way"?? The contrary was the case. They were very poorly tied, which just screams that a panic-driven parent fumblingly tied those wrists for staging purposes. The parent doing this was emotionally so distraught that it didn't enter her (I think it was Patsy) mind how professional kidnappers tie up their victims, and it is also possible that she had no idea at all how kidnappers tie up wrists.
Nor does that 15-inch length of space have any function whatsoever, therefore the word 'complicated' does not apply at all. 'Revealing' would be the appropriate word: for it shows that the ligatures were applied to a victim who was already dead or near-death. Why? Because if you tie wrists together that way on a living victim, the victim can bring her hands together and can try to untie her wrists.
Nor can one call the bindings on the wrists themselves 'complicated': One was tied so poorly that the loop was larger than JB's wrist, which is why it easily came off during the autopsy (or had already come off). This btw also proves that John Ramsey was lying when he said he couldn't untie the wrist ligatures.
The other loop was tied on top of the sleeve, and so loosely that Dr. Meyer had no problem at all in untying it. It was more or less like untying a shoelace.
So we have wrist ligatures which didn't restrain, which points to them being the work of a bungling and panicky amateur. And imo that bungling and panicky amateur was Patsy Ramsey, who desperately tried to stage the scene.

 

[aussiesheila]

I don't think her hands were restrained during the molesting/strangling. I read several books about this case, ST's, DOI, Schiller's, Wecht's, and countless things online...and I'm not convinced there is enough evidence on JonBenet's wrists to show that she was tied and struggled during what happened to her. Same with the tape across her mouth - it didn't appear as though it had been present on her while she was alive, did not show signs of having been struggled against.

In my mind, the only way she did not need to be tied up and gagged while being assaulted and strangled is if the person doing such to her was someone that she was totally submissive to out of ingrained habit - one of her parents. I think Patsy killed her. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Patsy snapped and freaked out on her daughter late Christmas night and killed her, and then told John and they both did the staging.

I can't see any other explanation for the behavior of the Ramseys in this situation all these years other than one of them did it, and they have done nothing but lie and try to hinder investigation since. I certainly don't believe any intruder was responsible for what happened to that child. That laughable ransom note...she was cleaned up and redressed...the differing stories about what happened...whether Burke was awake or not...the pineapple. I think Ramseys act very guilty.

I think her wrists were tied like that to be confusing, and it worked. We're still questioning it today. It's pretty obvious to me that that set up with the rope over the sleeves and all the length and slack was never meant to restrain JonBenet's hands. As for complicated, people who sail learn complex knots. It becomes something you can do by rote.

Thanks for your reply Nusianceposter, I think I understand a bit better now how you envisage what happened. I can't say I agree with you though especially about the Ramseys acting guilty. I just don't see that John acted guilty at all, although I think Patsy most certainly did. I think as far as not co-operating that well with police; that had a lot to do with the police acting as though they were certain the Ramseys were guilty from day one. I think anyone would be wary of the police under those circumstances.

 

[sharpar]

Thanks for your reply Nusianceposter, I think I understand a bit better now how you envisage what happened. I can't say I agree with you though especially about the Ramseys acting guilty. I just don't see that John acted guilty at all, although I think Patsy most certainly did. I think as far as not co-operating that well with police; that had a lot to do with the police acting as though they were certain the Ramseys were guilty from day one. I think anyone would be wary of the police under those circumstances.

Being wary of police doesnt justify thier behavior or choices .
They acted the way they did because they murdered her . There may be no handbook for dealing with these things but no one acts like this if they are
truly innocent.
Most parents would immediately realize that they would be PRIME suspects, they are in the home with the murder victim. However, innocent parents
cooperate and answer truthfully and make themselves available for further questions. Answer questions in a clear understandable manner.
None of these things did the Ramseys do. They attempted to leave town immediately and outright lied or mislead the police with vague or patently false answers to all of their questions. Not the way to get off
the suspect list. They are guilty. There is not on piece of evidence that
gets them off the hook and plenty that points right back at them.

 

[tipper]

Being wary of police doesnt justify thier behavior or choices .
They acted the way they did because they murdered her . There may be no handbook for dealing with these things but no one acts like this if they are
truly innocent.
Most parents would immediately realize that they would be PRIME suspects, they are in the home with the murder victim. However, innocent parents
cooperate and answer truthfully and make themselves available for further questions. Answer questions in a clear understandable manner.
None of these things did the Ramseys do. They attempted to leave town immediately and outright lied or mislead the police with vague or patently false answers to all of their questions. Not the way to get off
the suspect list. They are guilty. There is not on piece of evidence that
gets them off the hook and plenty that points right back at them.

So why do you think John Walsh, who has probably dealt with more victim's families than almost anyone and who could never be accused of being soft on murderers and child killers, has come out and said he doesn't think the Ramseys had anything to do with killing their daughter?

 

[sharpar]

He is entitled to his opinion and we have no idea on what he based that opinion on. There has been much misinformation in the media .

 

[tipper]

He is entitled to his opinion and we have no idea on what he based that opinion on. There has been much misinformation in the media .

Except he didn't base his opinion on what's in the media. He has had first hand, in person dealings with them. As has Jeanne Boylan who also believes they are innocent.