The Intruder as a Friend

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That's well written, Gaia.

All I can figure to explain their behavior, is that there's still something big that we don't know yet, if we ever will.

Patsy was reported to have said, "We didn't mean for THIS to happen." There were some other people involved. She only said it to her sister, didn't know it would be reported, so it's likely truth.

Editing to add a question for all. So if FW is right that the body wasn't there at 6:20 AM, and JR was missing for a while, supposedly to get the mail, if John himself moved the body, FROM WHERE, and WHY?

While we have no EVIDENCE anyone unknown was still in the house, we don't know for certain there wasn't someone. Police didn't really search the house, did they? And someone was seen running across the back of the lot at a very early morning hour. Supposed to have spent the night with someone and wanted to get home to sleep some more, or something, I know, but unless he'd sneaked out and would be in trouble with parents, why would anyone rush like that so early? What if he really had been in the Ramsey house, and had finally sneaked out? I'm assuming it was someone young but I don't think any of the writers actually said that.

What's everyone's take on that?
 
The first patrol officers on the scene...Officer French?...searched the basement but didn't open the cellar door. I believe he said, when ask, I didn't enter the wine cellar and didn't know why he didn't.

If you look at the basement layout in Schiller's book, the door to the wine cellar sits to the right corner. Somewhere, I think, I read that the door opens out and had a latch. The light switch is on the right side of the door.

Detectives did an experiment (at night) with the door open and the light off to determine whether any reflective light would have been enough to see the body which was laying to the left of the door where the room is offset preventing reflective light from iluminating the entire room. They determined it possible that White probably couldn't have seen the body when he first checked the basement at about 6:30am unless he'd turned the light on.

When John opened the door at 1:00pm to find JB laying there, he turned the light on....he said. Then later, I believe he said he couldn't remember whether he turned it on or not.


edit for clarity
 
Miss Daisey said:
Detectives did an experiment (at night) with the door open and the light off to determine whether any reflective light would have been enough to see the body which was laying to the left of the door where the room is offset preventing reflective light from iluminating the entire room. They determined it possible that White probably couldn't have seen the body when he first checked the basement at about 6:30am unless he'd turned the light on.
Click to expand...


Miss Daisey,

Could we have the source for this information? Thanks.

JMO
 
IMO Fleet White would have seen the body of JonBenet in the wine cellar when he opened the door, leaned in, and looked -- even though he couldn't find the light switch. Here's my evidence and hypothesist:

1. There was a full moon that night.

2. There was a fresh dusting of snow covering the ground and the trees, making virtually everything outside white and reflective.

3. The boiler room window would have allowed a small amount of the natural light from the full moon, reflected by the white snow, to enter the boiler room.

4. The freshly painted white wine cellar door, about 10' away from the window, would have been bathed in the low ambient light in the boiler room from the moonlight coming through the window.

5. When Fleet White opened the wine cellar door, a small amount but enough ambient light in the boiler room, reinforced by the light glancing off the white door, would have entered the dark wine cellar and allowed Fleet to notice a body wrapped in a white blanket lying just a few feet from the door -- IF IT HAD BEEN THERE.

JMO
 
I agree with your analysis about the light in the wine cellar and am also interested in the reference to Miss Daisey's post.

The fact someone (Fleet) briefly looked into that room and saw nothing that morning is just beyond credibility to me unless he actually saw something and said nothing or nothing was there at the time. There has been lots of speculation about Fleet's participation in the cover-up theories. Some would say he "went off" on John later was due to his knowledge and his hope John would just talk. Dunno. Could be, but I doubt it because he did talk to the GJ and if he spilled the beans about a cover-up to the GJ, surely they would have voted for indictment of John and/or Patsy. Something really happened between Fleet/Priscilla and John/Patsy, as they're no longer friends. You'd think the tragedy would have drawn them together, but the opposite happened. Hmmmmmm...... :waitasec:
 
Eagle1 said:
While we have no EVIDENCE anyone unknown was still in the house, we don't know for certain there wasn't someone. Police didn't really search the house, did they? And someone was seen running across the back of the lot at a very early morning hour. Supposed to have spent the night with someone and wanted to get home to sleep some more, or something, I know, but unless he'd sneaked out and would be in trouble with parents, why would anyone rush like that so early? What if he really had been in the Ramsey house, and had finally sneaked out? I'm assuming it was someone young but I don't think any of the writers actually said that.

What's everyone's take on that?
Click to expand...

Eagle, can you source the statement about someone seen running across the back of the lot? I have never read that. Thanks.
 
gaia said:
I agree with your analysis about the light in the wine cellar and am also interested in the reference to Miss Daisey's post.

The fact someone (Fleet) briefly looked into that room and saw nothing that morning is just beyond credibility to me unless he actually saw something and said nothing or nothing was there at the time. There has been lots of speculation about Fleet's participation in the cover-up theories. Some would say he "went off" on John later was due to his knowledge and his hope John would just talk. Dunno. Could be, but I doubt it because he did talk to the GJ and if he spilled the beans about a cover-up to the GJ, surely they would have voted for indictment of John and/or Patsy. Something really happened between Fleet/Priscilla and John/Patsy, as they're no longer friends. You'd think the tragedy would have drawn them together, but the opposite happened. Hmmmmmm...... :waitasec:
Click to expand...



gaia,

As I've stated in the past, I believe Fleet and Priscilla likely know who killed JonBenet, AND THEIR SUSPECT IS A RAMSEY. The "now you see it, now you don't" episode with JonBenet's body in the wine cellar was probably the clincher. Only John, frustrated that JonBenet wasn't immediately found, would have moved the body to an easier-to-find location. But if the perps were juveniles, under court order, the White's can't say anything about it.

The situation would agonize Fleet and Priscilla because they and members of their family have been unnecessarily drawn into the scene as pedophile suspects (the California woman, etc.). The Whites would surely prefer the ugly truth be known, the Ramseys confess (if the kids did it they are not prosecutable), and a stop be put on innocent people being thrown under the bus.

JMO
 
BlueCrab:
What you say about the ambient and reflected light sounds reasonable.

I was going to put some of this in a new thread on staging, but since you explicitly mentioned it. Hope you dont mind it here?

During the documentary Who Killed JonBenet?, made by Channel Four in London, John Ramsey describes what they found:-
"As I was walking through the basement, I opened the door to a room and knew immediately that I'd found her because there was a white blanket - her eyes were closed, I feared the worse but yet - I'd found her."

In PMPT the author recounts John Ramsey discovering JonBenet:-
Ramsey pulled the door open toward himself, stood at the threshold, and , peering to the left, into the darkness, saw a white blanket on the floor just as he reached for the switch on the wall to his right and turned on the light. Then he saw two little hands sticking out from under the blanket.
"Oh my God, Oh my God" he cried.
JonBenet was lying on the floor, partly wrapped in a blanket. Her hands were extended over her head and appeared to be tied together. There was tape covering her mouth.

Various descriptons, from other sources, of JonBenet's body when it was found include:
under a white blanket
underneath a white blanket
covered in a white blanket
enveloped in a white blanket
wrapped in a white blanket

Is there a settled view as to the disposition of the white blanket? Since to me "wrapped" suggests papoose style, similarly "enveloped" whereas "covered" suggests simply lying over and "under" or "underneath" are descriptive but neutral.

Lastly was there just one blanket or two ?
 
BlueCrab said:
Miss Daisey,

Could we have the source for this information? Thanks.

JMO
Click to expand...
Sure. It's in PMPT but I can't find the page #. I just read it yesterday. I'll find it and let you know.
 
Why would FW have looked in the dark wine cellar - not able to see anything in the darkness, close the door and relatch it?

If he was going to look in there - either he was able to see enough to feel she wasn't in there, or able to believe he had looked and she wasn't there.

Meaning, it would have been a wasted action for him to look in there and find it too dark to see anything.

He said he didn't see her. How can you make that statement if you didn't see anything?

Why didn't he say, it was too dark to see anything - if she were there, he wouldn't know - because it was too dark. He didn't state that.
 
TLynn said:
Why would FW have looked in the dark wine cellar - not able to see anything in the darkness, close the door and relatch it?

If he was going to look in there - either he was able to see enough to feel she wasn't in there, or able to believe he had looked and she wasn't there.

Meaning, it would have been a wasted action for him to look in there and find it too dark to see anything.

He said he didn't see her. How can you make that statement if you didn't see anything?

Why didn't he say, it was too dark to see anything - if she were there, he wouldn't know - because it was too dark. He didn't state that.
Click to expand...


TLynn,

A white object, lying just a step or two from the door, could be seen when the rest of the room appears to be in total darkness.

Experiment with it tonight. Turn out all of the lights until a room is in total darkness and peer in from the open door (a very dim light should be in the distant background behind you). You will see nothing. Then place a white blanket on the floor about 6 feet from the door and peer in again. You will likely see the white blanket, and that's all you will see.

IMO when Fleet White looked into the room the body wasn't there. That's why he didn't see it. If the body was there he would have likely seen it. That's Fleet's argument, and the reason he would suspect that John Ramsey had moved it there after he (Fleet) looked into the room early that morning.

JMO
 
BlueCrab said:
IMO Fleet White would have seen the body of JonBenet in the wine cellar when he opened the door, leaned in, and looked -- even though he couldn't find the light switch. Here's my evidence and hypothesist:

1. There was a full moon that night.

2. There was a fresh dusting of snow covering the ground and the trees, making virtually everything outside white and reflective.

3. The boiler room window would have allowed a small amount of the natural light from the full moon, reflected by the white snow, to enter the boiler room.

4. The freshly painted white wine cellar door, about 10' away from the window, would have been bathed in the low ambient light in the boiler room from the moonlight coming through the window.

5. When Fleet White opened the wine cellar door, a small amount but enough ambient light in the boiler room, reinforced by the light glancing off the white door, would have entered the dark wine cellar and allowed Fleet to notice a body wrapped in a white blanket lying just a few feet from the door -- IF IT HAD BEEN THERE.

JMO
Click to expand...
Per Schiller's book and diagram of the basement, there was no window in the boiler room...rather a ventilation duct to the outside that wouldn't have allowed ambient light into the boiler room at 6:30am even with a light dusting of snow on the ground.(I have one just like that) In fact, there are NO windows in the basement except the 3 (at ground level) in the storage room located well away and back from the wine cellar.

In fact, I wouldn't describe the area called "basement" a basement at all but rather a cellar. With no access to the outside of the house, this sub- terrainian space had no outside access except for the 3 small windows which are just above grade. It's described as dark, with low ceilings and very cluttered...an area of overflow for all the "junk" a household collects.

The wine cellar is beyond the boiler room which is windowless and dark. Some of the Ramsey friends and/or witness's didn't even know this room was even there.

I'm not disputing what Mr White said about his first "search" of the basement. He may have THOUGHT he'd looked everywhere... but some detectives had doubts that he'd even looked in the wine cellar at all since it was a very out-of-the-way spot. (re PMPT)

If a light had been turned on at the top of the stairs to the basement when he entered White was staring into a jumbled "foot print" of an enormous house above with lots of clutter and saw no obvious signs of JonBenet...and neither did the police on their first "search".

Whatever Mr White believes today is the obvious disput between himself and the Ramseys.

For me, it's not personal. I don't have a theory that I'm backing into. Just looking for the facts and evidence of the case. The evidence, IMO, has been scrambled...if you will...to hide what really happened.
 
Miss Daisey said:
Per Schiller's book and diagram of the basement, there was no window in the boiler room...rather a ventilation duct to the outside that wouldn't have allowed ambient light into the boiler room at 6:30am even with a light dusting of snow on the ground.(I have one just like that) In fact, there are NO windows in the basement except the 3 (at ground level) in the storage room located well away and back from the wine cellar.
Click to expand...


Miss Daisey,

There was indeed a window in the boiler room. One half of the window was used as a place to vent the duct from the boiler to the outside. The other half was a window.

In fact, it was the boiler room window where the extension cords for the outside Christmas lights were run. (Miss Daisey, you missed one window -- the one in the powder room at the bottom of the basement stairs.)

JMO
 
Oopps ! Forgot the window in the powder room....toward the front of the basement and that little bitty 1/2 with the ventilation pipe. Those probably lite that place up like neon.

I stand corrected sir/mame.
 
Miss Daisey said:
Oopps ! Forgot the window in the powder room....toward the front of the basement and that little bitty 1/2 with the ventilation pipe. Those probably lite that place up like neon.

I stand corrected sir/mame.
Click to expand...


Miss Daisey,

No, the window in the boiler room wouldn't "light up the place like neon", but it would have likely provided enough light for Fleet White to see a white object lying on the floor of the nearby wine cellar.

The wine cellar door opened outward and was painted white. The faint moonlight coming through the boiler room window would have struck the door and reflected some light into the wine cellar.

(Incidentally, I'm a MALE blue crab.)


JMO
 
male blue crab ..yummmy
I put them in the pot alive, it seems so evil ... the males are the best!
BTW, Bed ,Bath and Beyond SELLS an old fashioned crab steamer..(however it's called a clam steamer) if nostalgia calls:)
 
Six months ago, I moved to a little place where the Neuse River opens into the Pamlico Sound - Oriental, NC. This summer, it was hard to maneuver the sailboat because of all the crabpots!! The amazing thing to me is I can drive a couple of miles and get fresh-caught seafood all the time. How marvelous!!!

Back to the case: The white blanket says it all to me. IF Fleet really did look into that room (and I think his later actions toward John imply this) he would have seen that blanket - in a mostly dark room. After all, John saw it - immediately. Any light introduced into that room, no matter how tiny, only supports this and enhances the probability.
 
BlueCrab said:
Miss Daisey,

No, the window in the boiler room wouldn't "light up the place like neon", but it would have likely provided enough light for Fleet White to see a white object lying on the floor of the nearby wine cellar.

The wine cellar door opened outward and was painted white. The faint moonlight coming through the boiler room window would have struck the door and reflected some light into the wine cellar.

(Incidentally, I'm a MALE blue crab.)


JMO
Click to expand...
Psssst...Mr Blue Crab......I was being a smart *advertiser censored** about the neon.

Fact is....that basement was reeeeal dark until the lights were turned on.

I'm going on vacation to the coast. I think I'll eat some crabs. Don't ya'll get too far ahead of me before I get back.

Very Cordially Yours,
Miss Daisey
 
In the 2nd link above, there appears to be a pretty bright electric light at the bottom of the stairs. I looked at the bsmt diagram in the book again and there's no window there. They weren't asked what lights they turned on while searching, correct? Probably would claim not to remember.

Wouldn't you think whenever anyone went down they would have turned on some other lights as they went along, especially when looking for something as important as a child, especially the boiler room?

Some detectives felt FW was lying?

For fear of having the murder pinned on him? But if he'd seen the white blanket at 6:something AM, could any human contain his excitement and pretend convincingly not to have seen anything? Wouldn't you think he would have turned on the boiler room light?

I'm looking in Schiller's book for the person running across the back of the lot, may not have marked it in the margin. Anyone else found it?Probably should be near the front of the book?
 
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