The Jury Speaks Thread

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Bolding mine -

Just because someone makes a different choice, based on how they see the evidence, does NOT mean they have little or no backbone, nor a weaker character than someone else. It simply means they see it differently.

For those of you who wonder why the jurors who voted life don't speak out...why would they subject themselves to the scrutiny? Many people, here and other places have already voiced their opinions on the character of those 4 people without even knowing what brought them to their decision.

I don't think being "victim supportive and victim friendly" means everyone else is fair game. All the jurors on this case spent 5-6 months out of their regular lives, doing their job/civic duty and deserve a great deal of RESPECT and support, no matter which way they voted.

Just my .02

Sorry, I have a tendency to over analyze people when I am trying to figure them out or explain their actions, thus my criticism of the CA jury. I really did not at all intend to place this jury in the same category with the Terrible Twelve. And I did use the qualifier, "possibly". :wink:

As you say, these jurors gave up months of their time and set aside their private lives to serve in this trial. That in itself is honorable and admirable and I truly don't know how they did it. As far as how they voted, point taken, it's irrelevant. They were there, they served. :truce:
 
I have not read/seen all of the jurors' interviews - have any of them indicated that they this was not "The Worst of the Worst" kind of murder? Because if so ..... I think that would show they were totally ignoring the instructions to the jury. It is NOT their job to consider other murderers... It is NOT their job to compare CMJA to say Charles Manson....It is NOT their job to rate murderers on a scale of one to ten and see where does CMJA fall in that hierarchy of other convicted murderers. Hoping these are just your speculations and not something that has been stated or even hinted at by juror interviews.....

I don't think the AZ Supreme Court has opined on this, but I believe the general rule is that the defense CAN argue in mitigation that the crime was not "the worst of the worst." Maybe not by reference to specific crimes and the punishments received, but by general reference to types of murderers who are worse than the defendant. And jurors can consider mitigation even if it is not argued by the defense. So I don't see why it would have been wrong for this jury to consider where JA's crime would fall on a scale of other aggravated murders.
 
So you feel the anal sex was the pivotal issue?

Sad to say but yes, from what we have thus far learned I absolutely believe that it is an issue such as this that led to there being jurors who believe that there was some degree of abuse with Jodi as the role of the victim and Travis as the aggressor.. In jurors having told us that there are jurors whose belief was that's its quite possible that Jodi was abused in some way by Travis..I look at what evidence there is of abuse by Travis on Jodi and I come to the conclusion that there is none.. There is 2 or 3 electronic communications of the nearly 100, 000 electronic communications between the two, and in less than a mere handful there is Travis speaking to Jodi in a negative way..that's it guys! Thats it as far as evidence of abuse by Travis on Jodi..

So, I then began looking at what possible preconceived notions or personal beliefs could someone have that would lead to their looking at this same evidence we did and come away with an opinion that there was proof of some type abuse..at minimum verbal/emotional abuse..and some jurors have even gone as far as to say there were jurors who possibly believed there was even some level of physical abuse by Travis on Jodi.. I pondered what specific mindset "could" skew or alter the perception of the evidence we have into it being indicative of abuse..

And IMO ONE TYPE OF SPECIFIC MINDSET COULD BE the one that is adamant in it being a fact in their minds that no young woman would enjoy, prefer, or initiate the anal sex.. The member who described this as his older father's exact mindset that remained throughout the trial regardless of the evidence and even the testimony from the defendant herself that IMO clearly showed that Jodi was well versed and practiced in anal sex and that it is she, herself who most likely initiated and introduced anal sex into she and Travis' sexual relationship.. And even tho, all of the evidence and testimony IMO appears to be every bit indicative that she was a wanting and fully willing participant.. Yet there are still people just like one our members father's who is of the firm mindset that she didn't like it, enjoy, prefer, initiate it and that it is Travis who at minimum initiated, manipulated, and coerced Jodi into anal sex..

This places Jodi in a sympathetic light and there are people who may be of the above described firm mindset and thereby see it as a form of abuse by Travis on Jodi..and while obviously that mindset would still allow one to see the murder as a premeditated first degree, with proven agg factor of especially cruel..yet their belief of this "abuse" is of sufficient weight that allows them to spare her life from the penalty of death in this final phase..

So, do I believe that it is actually the specific issue of anal sex which is the pivotal point by which the entire hung jury was hinged upon?.. No, not necessarily..but I believe that it is an issue such as this where you have in place an already long since preconceived firm belief about a certain issue or specific aspect..that when that issue came into play in this case that most see clearly no evidence of abuse, yet some are stating they do see evidence of abuse..well, imo the reason they perceive it starkly different than all others is due to their having a strong mindset about a specific issue or aspect THAT THE MAJORITY DO NOT SHARE THAT SAME FIRM MINDSET RGARDING THE ISSUE..

Maybe it was the anal sex aspect just like it was for one of our member's older father's who it was for him..if not anal sex, IMO its just another factor involved in this case that some people's mindsets affected how they perceived and interpretated the evidence and testimony in this case.
 
Whoever mentioned that the content of the text messages may have had a role in the four not voting DP, I agree with that. WE know so much more than they did and isolated, the messages are rough which may have led some of them to believe he was abusive towards her. Now I don't believe that for a minute but four of them did vote this way so speculation is part of the process.

I also think that they may believe her psychopathy (although stated BPD, she is sooo much more than that) may have played a role. These four may have thought she really is sick but since that was never a defense they felt that if she is as sick as we think, I don't think she is DP appropriate. Let's face it, we all know something is truly wrong with JA but those of us who spend so much time analyzing crime and the personalities of those committing them know the *real* difference between someone is sick and someone who has no soul/psychopath/sociopath etc.

I don't think there was one outstanding factor but the tenor of their relationship through some of those texts, the fact that there is something seriously wrong with her, the fact that while they may be DP qualified, it may be reserved for the likes of a serial killer/spree killer/mass murderer, etc. and let's face it, JA threw the don't do this for my family, let's show baby pictures at them for good measure didn't hurt either.

That being said, murder one was found, rightfully so and although I am a firm believer that she deserves the DP (any tiny part of me that thought otherwise went POOF after seeing her post conviction interviews) I am resigning myself that it may just be life behind bars.

The female AZ reporter said that she has a better shot of having her conviction overturned if she is sentenced to death as opposed to LWOP because of where the appeal goes. I do NOT want her to have any shot of getting out of prison, EVER


IMO of course
 
Yea JA was sooooo abused she rented a car drove 1000 miles to see the " EX boyfriend" she broke-up with(right!) to get abused again. Bite me. Or because her mother hit her with a wooden spoon, LOL. What she said, the lies I should say she told about TA after she slaughtered him, just who in the heck abused who? Answer, who was in the court room ALIVE! The only thing I was surprised about was she didn't throw her father under the bus like Casey Anthony did, oh and brother. Yea, her brother has a non-registered gun, she did drop that bit of info. So sweet for JA to mention her sister is expecting and engaged to a nice man, like pregnant and not married. She is just better than anyone, except for this one mistake, but remember "she never killed anyone before". She is NOT sick, just an evil, lying, uneducated, looser, period.
 
Thanks! Is there a list with all the questions anywhere?

Yes didn't auburn schnauzer post it in a link up thread? I haven't been able to read it all yet to see how many questions were in it because am on phone today ..
 
Yes didn't auburn schnauzer post it in a link up thread? I haven't been able to read it all yet to see how many questions were in it because am on phone today ..

Why, Yes Mrs. Auburn Schnauzer did......Easy to find folks. Woo- Damn - Woo
 
I don't think the AZ Supreme Court has opined on this, but I believe the general rule is that the defense CAN argue in mitigation that the crime was not "the worst of the worst." Maybe not by reference to specific crimes and the punishments received, but by general reference to types of murderers who are worse than the defendant. And jurors can consider mitigation even if it is not argued by the defense. So I don't see why it would have been wrong for this jury to consider where JA's crime would fall on a scale of other aggravated murders.

OK - I am not a lawyer (just married to one) and not in AZ - but this would seem to be a constantly sliding scale - Do we now have to kill more than one person to justify the DP? Because looking at this trial - it can't be based on the viciousness or the cruelty of the murder or she would be right up there. So what is the cut-off number? Does killing 2 or 3 result in life - must be double digits to warrant a DP conviction? There is always be a new atrocity so in my layman's little mind - it is not right to compare...

Having only seen the foreman's interview - I am convinced (IMHP only) he was influenced by her age and her looks. I also wonder if there has been any discussion about how a strong foreman can sway the opinion of fellow jurors? Again - my opinion only - but I think he influenced 3 other people....I am sure as years go by we will learn more.


Thanks for your many, many helpful posts on AZ law - I especially like the system of jurors asking questions....
 
OK - I am not a lawyer (just married to one) and not in AZ - but this would seem to be a constantly sliding scale - Do we now have to kill more than one person to justify the DP? Because looking at this trial - it can't be based on the viciousness or the cruelty of the murder or she would be right up there. So what is the cut-off number? Does killing 2 or 3 result in life - must be double digits to warrant a DP conviction? There is always be a new atrocity so in my layman's little mind - it is not right to compare...

Having only seen the foreman's interview - I am convinced (IMHP only) he was influenced by her age and her looks. I also wonder if there has been any discussion about how a strong foreman can sway the opinion of fellow jurors? Again - my opinion only - but I think he influenced 3 other people....I am sure as years go by we will learn more.


Thanks for your many, many helpful posts on AZ law - I especially like the system of jurors asking questions....

Well, the US Supreme Court has said that the death penalty must be reserved for the "worst of the worst." I believe it is constitutionally sufficient just to establish an aggravating factor. However, "not the worst of the worst" can be a mitigating factor just like anything else relating to the defendant or the crime. But then the jury can say "we give that very little weight in light of the fact that there will always be a handful of true monsters and she is only one step below that."

I believe one of the jurors said in an interview that the group who voted for life were not influenced by the foreman.
 
Sad to say but yes, from what we have thus far learned I absolutely believe that it is an issue such as this that led to there being jurors who believe that there was some degree of abuse with Jodi as the role of the victim and Travis as the aggressor.. In jurors having told us that there are jurors whose belief was that's its quite possible that Jodi was abused in some way by Travis..I look at what evidence there is of abuse by Travis on Jodi and I come to the conclusion that there is none.. There is 2 or 3 electronic communications of the nearly 100, 000 electronic communications between the two, and in less than a mere handful there is Travis speaking to Jodi in a negative way..that's it guys! Thats it as far as evidence of abuse by Travis on Jodi..

So, I then began looking at what possible preconceived notions or personal beliefs could someone have that would lead to their looking at this same evidence we did and come away with an opinion that there was proof of some type abuse..at minimum verbal/emotional abuse..and some jurors have even gone as far as to say there were jurors who possibly believed there was even some level of physical abuse by Travis on Jodi.. I pondered what specific mindset "could" skew or alter the perception of the evidence we have into it being indicative of abuse..

And IMO ONE TYPE OF SPECIFIC MINDSET COULD BE the one that is adamant in it being a fact in their minds that no young woman would enjoy, prefer, or initiate the anal sex.. The member who described this as his older father's exact mindset that remained throughout the trial regardless of the evidence and even the testimony from the defendant herself that IMO clearly showed that Jodi was well versed and practiced in anal sex and that it is she, herself who most likely initiated and introduced anal sex into she and Travis' sexual relationship.. And even tho, all of the evidence and testimony IMO appears to be every bit indicative that she was a wanting and fully willing participant.. Yet there are still people just like one our members father's who is of the firm mindset that she didn't like it, enjoy, prefer, initiate it and that it is Travis who at minimum initiated, manipulated, and coerced Jodi into anal sex..

This places Jodi in a sympathetic light and there are people who may be of the above described firm mindset and thereby see it as a form of abuse by Travis on Jodi..and while obviously that mindset would still allow one to see the murder as a premeditated first degree, with proven agg factor of especially cruel..yet their belief of this "abuse" is of sufficient weight that allows them to spare her life from the penalty of death in this final phase..

So, do I believe that it is actually the specific issue of anal sex which is the pivotal point by which the entire hung jury was hinged upon?.. No, not necessarily..but I believe that it is an issue such as this where you have in place an already long since preconceived firm belief about a certain issue or specific aspect..that when that issue came into play in this case that most see clearly no evidence of abuse, yet some are stating they do see evidence of abuse..well, imo the reason they perceive it starkly different than all others is due to their having a strong mindset about a specific issue or aspect THAT THE MAJORITY DO NOT SHARE THAT SAME FIRM MINDSET RGARDING THE ISSUE..

Maybe it was the anal sex aspect just like it was for one of our member's older father's who it was for him..if not anal sex, IMO its just another factor involved in this case that some people's mindsets affected how they perceived and interpretated the evidence and testimony in this case.

I had to log in (been absent for awhile) just to say I totally agree. I said the same thing a week or so ago. I think that someone's mindset on anal sex probably had the connotation (in their mind) of rape.
 
I believe one of the jurors said in an interview that the group who voted for life were not influenced by the foreman.


Interesting.... having served on 3 juries - I find that an interesting comment. (that they were not influenced). Once it is established that it's not unanimous - there is usually a time of discussion during which anyone who wishes - explains or even attempts to persuade others of their point of view. Typically the foreman has a strong personality and leadership skills of some sort.... it would seem hard to prove one way or another. Even just the fact that he is the first one out of gate on GMA - that was his choice to speak out... which reveals a bit of his persona in my opinion.
 
<modsnip>

A lot of people are getting this wrong. Saying you could give someone the death penalty is not the same as saying you will give them the death penalty. The mitigation phase is different from any other phase. It's based more on your personal decisions and morals. So saying you could give the death penalty in a death penalty case is not qualified by your morals or personal feelings about who is deserving of the DP. The simple fact is some may feel the DP is reserved for the worst of the worst, like serial killers and mass murderers. They may feel Jodi had mental issues that caused her to not be in full control of her actions. They may feel she was actually abused by Travis based on their observations. Or any number of things.

I have great respect for every one on the jury, yes, including the foreman. Why? Because, despite his emotional and personal feelings re: Jodi, he was able to put that aside and render a just verdict based on the law and the fact that the murder was, beyond a reasonable doubt, premeditated. He could have held out but he didn't, because no matter what, there is no excuse for what Jodi did, no matter what. I think he did a great job given what we have learned about his personal, if misguided, beliefs. In the end, reason did trump emotion. That's commendable and I am so thankful for that.
 
What brought it on home for me was when one of the members here posted about what dynamics played themselves out between his older parents throughout their watching Jodi's trial... he said that plain and simple his father was very firm of the mindset and would not be convinced otherwise in that there is absolutely no young woman, period who is going to prefer, enjoy, initiate anal sex..his father kept this same firm mindset throughout the entire trial and was extremely vocal about it to the point that the wife no longer would let him watch the trial with her since they were so adamantly opposed regarding this issue..

when this member shared this about his fathers adamant mindset that in essence allowed sympathy for Jodi..well, like it if not(and regardless of the FACT this particular mindset is incorrect in I know plenty of women who do in fact like, enjoy, and even initiate it) however the fact remains that believe it or not THE OPPOSITE IS the firm mindset of some people and in their being adamant REGARDLESS OF WHAT JODI SAID OR ACTED ON THE STAND, they firmly believe she didn't enjoy it, prefer, or initiate it there for seeing Travis as the aggressor...

and in the end while they could still see it was a premeditated first degree murder and even proven agg factor of especially cruel..yet, their firm mindset of Jodi in a sympathetic light of being manipulated into anal sex that she did not want was a sufficient factor in their minds that was enough to spare her life in the final penalty phase..

like it or not..believe it or not..there are absolutely individuals that even after all the testimony and evidence STILL ARE OF THE FIRM MINDSET NO YOUNG WOMAN WOULD EVER PREFER, ENJOY, OR INITIATE ANAL SEX..

and IMO that mindset would be enough for some to spare her life of the penalty of death.

So you feel the anal sex was the pivotal issue?


What anal sex? There was no anal sex between them! Her saying that was part of her bull **** 'story' in trashing him as being a bad Mormon and pedophile. It's frustrating to me anyone believes there was anal sex. Remember, she's a LIAR.

I'm not as upset about her not getting the DP as I am that 4 juror's believed something she said! :maddening:

:moo:
 
Again - I would like to reiterate...I believe this thread is for WHEN THE JURY speaks...I come here, expecting to see new links to juror interviews, etc. Yet I am reading POSTER views, etc. Not ragging on any one particular, but can we PLEASE leave this thread for when THE JURY SPEAKS? There are other threads for these other topics. TIA and JMO
 
Again - I would like to reiterate...I believe this thread is for WHEN THE JURY speaks...I come here, expecting to see new links to juror interviews, etc. Yet I am reading POSTER views, etc. Not ragging on any one particular, but can we PLEASE leave this thread for when THE JURY SPEAKS? There are other threads for these other topics. TIA and JMO

So - I am new here - if this is only for links to *actual juror interviews* - where is the thread where we discuss what they *say* in these interviews? Thanks~~
 

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