The Pontiac - "Revisted" #1

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Thanks.
I have been marking time here. Nice to get some facts.

Can you also reconcile the report that Amscot worker saw the car earlier? When he arrived for work?

I have not read any of the Amscot employee interviews. All I can say is, like so many witnesses to this case, that person's memory was fuzzy after several weeks. Perhaps this person remembered the time of day incorrectly, or perhaps it was Saturday they remembered rather than Friday.

Not surprising. I believe in general LE takes eyewitness accounts with some number of salt grains.
 
Months ago it was speculated that Casey abandoned the Pontiac @ Amscot 6/27 so she wouldn't be faced with taking Tony to the airport 6/30AM w/ the smell of decomp increasingly permeating her car...to further ensure she'd get the use of Tony's Jeep for the week.

Well...I bought it. I thought Casey had actually pulled something off that required a little planning & forethought.

Now...I've revisited the situation armed w/ a little more information...and I hafta conclude that Casey actually did run outta gas. :doh:

It requires a few working assumptions, but, here's how we get there...

On 6/23 Casey ran outta gas. We know exactly where AND, as a result of this incident from Tony's statement, we now know exactly what route Casey drove when she traveled between G&C's and Tony's. We know from Casey's pings the major trips she took, most likely in the Pontiac between 6/23 and 6/27. While Casey may have made a short trip or two from Tony's apt. to, say, Subway, for example, it doesn't appear she ventured too far...so, we've got decent information to work from here too.

  • 6/23 after filling up, Casey & Tony returned to his apt. (Tony's statement)
  • 6/24 Casey returned to G&C's (for the now famous scene) for 1 roundtrip (pings support)
  • 6/25 Casey hung @ Tony's (pings)
  • 6/26 Casey hung @ Tony's (pings)
  • 6/27 Casey returned to G&C's and almost made it back to Tony's, calling for help @ 11:47AM. (pings support)
The exact total mileage of these trips is 47.2 miles.​

From G&C's interview on Greta we know the size of the two gas cans Casey used were a 2.5gallon and a 1.25 gallon (the volumes aren't listed on the police report). We prolly don't want to assume these were 100% full, and we can play with this a little to see the effect later.

I found 5 different models of the 1998 Pontiac Sunfire w/ varying specs, however, the estimate mpg for all ranged +/- 1 mpg for city & highway stats. We'll use 20mpg as the most-common cited city mileage.

Finally, I found at least one reference for a similarly sized engine that indicated it burned 0.18 gallons/hr @ idle. This isn't a perfect reference, but, is actually a little conservative.

From the pings we can see that Casey approached Amscot, on the move, @ 11:40AM. She placed her distress call to Tony @ 11:47AM. We can quickly conclude that 7 minutes was not sufficient time to run out any significant volume of gas whatsoever...@ a rate even 2x the 0.18gallon/hr listed above.

...so how does that match up w/ what we know about the rest of the scene.

If we just do the straight math and not make any allowances for Casey running the AC, driving heavy footed as she likely sped away outta G&C's driveway 6/24, etc....just straight 20mpg...for 47.2 miles she would've consumed 2.4 gallons

If the 2 gas cans had been a collective 63% full... (2.5 + 1.25) = 3.75 * 0.63 = 2.4 gallons => Casey would have run outta gas precisely @ Amscot.

If the cans had been, say, 75% full...@ 20mpg...Casey would've had 0.5 gallons left in the tank @ Amscot and would have had to idle for 2.5 hours to run the tank empty. One can arrive at similar combinations of 'empty' by simply decreasing the mpg & increasing the volume that one assumes was in the gas cans of course (e.g. 85% full cans and 15mpg also = empty precisely @ Amscot).

So....now...thinking about the consequences of not running out @ Amscot I'm thinking Casey woulda just begged off 6/30AM and told Tony she was "on Empty" if he'd asked her to take him to the airport...had she made it all the way to Tony's 6/27.

...and JWG responded to other questions earlier that are coming up again - although the original questions won't carry w/ the quote...so I'll recreate'em.

What about the Amscot surveilance tapes?

The police tried to get them but because more than two weeks had transpired they had already been taped over.

Was Casey abandoning the car?

No, she returned on June 30 late in the afternoon with a newly-purchased gas can bought at Target with Amy's credit card (Amy was with her and made the purchase for the mooch), but by the time she turned the corner where the Amscot is located, the car had already been towed.

Did Casey want someone to steal the car?

Locked, and KC had her keys.

Also reading the NG'ism that Casey drove "round & round" on 6/27AM before abandoning the car. That characterization of what happened is flatly....wrong. Casey's pings indicate she made a trip from Tony's apt. to G&C's and ran out on her way back to Tony's...no detours. No driving around. See the detailed mileage calculated in the post above that explains that she actually ran outta gas.

Also, FWIW. As HP referenced earlier, on the E-Pass thread, and also summarized on the 6/29 Ping thread, if you are interested, you can read the details that support that "the chase" George described to LE actually happened the morning of Sunday, 6/29...just before Casey's first text to Amy that day inquiring about her gas cans. Speculation that Casey was driving Tony's Jeep that morning and making an effort to get gas cans from G&C's again. Driving up to the house George spotted Casey before she could get the gas cans and the chase began. So, Casey went to Plan B=Amy.

IMHO, the available information supports:
  • Casey ran outta gas @ Amscot, she didn't abandon the car
  • Casey's texts to Amy in advance prepared Amy for the smell by giving excuses about an animal having been stuck under it
  • Casey didn't want Tony to investigate the smell, hence, she gave him a story that the car needed repair & George was taking care of it
  • Casey made attempts to secure gas and recover the car, clearly on 6/30, and very possibly on 6/29
  • Casey was lax about getting the gas can w/ Amy Monday and as a result, by the time she made it around to Amscot the car had been towed
  • At precisely the time Casey rounded the corner by Amscot, 4:53PM, and discovered the Pontiac was gone she called Stephanie, believed to be an Amscot employee, and left a vmail or spoke w/ Stephanie for 48seconds.

Other miscellaneous Q's I saw along the way on the thread today:
  • Casey took Tony to the airport in his Jeep the morning of Monday, 6/30.
  • Casey showered @ Jesse's 7/1, between 11AM-1PM

Hope that helps.
 
The only thing that makes me think that KC intended to ditch the car (at least initially) is because the car stunk! She didn't grab cleaning supplies from Mom's and spend much time cleaning it. She didn't go to a car wash and spray it out from front to back. She didn't pour kitty litter or baking soda to the stain in an attempt to absorb the odor. She added trash to the car and carried gas maybe to help explain the odor. She just didn't do a whole lot to it, but she dumped it. So it could have been just plain laziness, or it could have been part of the plan.

I do think she planned on dumping it. Maybe she later found it inconvenient and wanted to go back to pick it up. Or maybe she just intended to report it stolen that day. After all if she planned to report it stolen, that would need to be set up. Like planning that she ran out of gas, two guys helped her push it into Amscot, when she got back to Amscot with the gas (after finding cans, and a ride back) the car was gone, missing, stolen.

You may be right about KC wanting to dump the car - I won't totally disagree with that point. HOWEVER, I have a problem getting my mind around KC even thinking about using kitty litter to absorb the odor, using her mom's cleaning supplies, etc. She grew up in a home with "Tillie Tidyhouse" for a mom, so I feel like she never developed many domestic skills for fear of not doing it up to CA's standards. I doubt any of those items even crossed her mind. Driving through a car wash or spraying off the car in a self-serve wash is possible. Before anyone points out that KC "cleaned, cooked & did laundry" for "The Boys" (Tony & roomies) I imagine their standards were not nearly so high for her to achieve. From the trash, it looks like she made lots of queso dip and frozen skillet dinners. Back to the abandoned car, in KC's world, I am pretty sure she didn't think too much about it. Everything has pretty much gone her way or she has been rescued - so, her mantra - don't worry, be happy- was all she needed! I just can't believe she was very adept at planning anything except what to wear while dancing on the pole!! Respectfully submitted, TG
 
*SNIP*

Also reading the NG'ism that Casey drove "round & round" on 6/27AM before abandoning the car. That characterization of what happened is flatly....wrong. Casey's pings indicate she made a trip from Tony's apt. to G&C's and ran out on her way back to Tony's...no detours. No driving around. See the detailed mileage calculated in the post above that explains that she actually ran outta gas.

*SNIP*

Again! Some facts!

So are you saying NG got it wrong?
 
I have been marking time here. Nice to get some facts.

Facts?!? Why confuse things with facts, HP? Oh...bother. :rolleyes:

Can you also reconcile the report that Amscot manager saw the car earlier? When he arrived for work?
*snipped*

IIRC, Vicky indicated she saw the Pontiac on the morning of 6/27 when she arrived for work. That timing is in conflict w/ Casey's travels the morning of 6/27, as Vicky arrives @ work typically ~7AM and the pings indicate Casey didn't show up there until ~11:45AM . Also, IIRC, Vicky called her district office (or similar) and they advised the policy was to wait 3-days before having the vehicle towed. This timing lead early speculation that the car had been left @ Amscot overnight 6/26 and/or that Casey had gotten a ride from someone else 6/27AM, etc.

IMHO, JWG captured it above...Vicky's memory was just a bit off regarding when she first observed the car. No biggie.
 
Do you think JB will try to say that Caylee accidentally died in the trunk of the Pontiac where KC put her after she was unable to find a babysitter in time for her hot date? KC normally put Caylee in the trunk late at night and got her out early in the morning while it was still cool but this time it was earlier in the afternoon when the temperature was still hot. The next morning when KC found Caylee and it was too late, she was too afraid to tell anyone, didn't know what to do, so she winged it as usual and ignored her dead baby.
 
Again! Some facts!

So are you saying NG got it wrong?

Shocking isn't it? :rolleyes: Prolly a NG-first, eh?

Cutting & pasting from a spreadsheet...so, please forgive the formatting...still, if interested you can follow along:

Starting Point/ Ending Point/ Comments/ Distance (miles)/ Route
6/23 Anthony Lane/ Sutton Place Blvd/ Return to Tony's Apt. after refilling with gas cans/ 9.4/ Chickasaw to Curry Ford to Goldenrod to University
6/24 Sutton Place Blvd/ 4937 Hopespring Dr./ Trip to G&C's which included gas can drama/ 10.2/ University to Goldenrod to Casey-cut-thru to Chickasaw to Grandee to Hopespring
6/24 4937 Hopespring Dr./ Sutton Place Blvd/ Return to Tony's Apt. after gas can drama/ 10.2/ Reverse of the 'to' trip
6/27 Sutton Place Blvd/ 4937 Hopespring Dr./ Trip to G&C's/ 10.2/ University to Goldenrod to Casey-cut-thru to Chickasaw to Grandee to Hopespring
6/27 4937 Hopespring Dr./ Amscot/ Ended in Parking Lot of Amscot/ 7.2/ Reverse of the 'to' trip


Total = exactly 47.2 miles

This is calculated from precisely the spot that Casey ran outta gas on 6/23 to precisely the spot she ran outta gas on 6/27, owing to the excellent description provided in Tony L.'s interview of the 6/23 event, and the accounts of the car being towed from Amscot. It also includes using the exact 'short-cut' route to/from Tony's that Casey was prone to use as was revealed on the same interview w/ Tony. See the 6/23 Ping thread here if interested in the details (incl. the marked maps, and street level pics, etc., etc.)
 
A more general consideration is:

IMO KC is unlikely to have abandoned the car because she did not have a snowball in Hell's chance of replacing it! No money.

Even her new "Party Friends" had jobs and school, so KC had to have some means of getting about during the day? If you believe in fairy tales, she needed a car to get to work?
 
*snipped*

IMHO, JWG captured it above...Vicky's memory was just a bit off regarding when she first observed the car. No biggie.

A little OT example, but I think we can all relate.

If LE were to come to my door :cop: and ask if I saw the neighbor across the street digging in their front yard recently, I would say yes, in fact I saw two men digging as I was leaving mid-afternoon to go to a game. When? Maybe last week...but it could have been two weeks ago. I'm really not sure but I know it had to be last week or the week before.

Looking at my calendar, it had to be one of three possible days, but I am not sure. It was sunny out, so if I refer to weatherunderground, I eliminate one of the two days. Notice how I had to do research :sleuth: to first figure out there were three possible days and then do additional research to eliminate one of those days. I could not with any certainty tell you which of those two days - and they are six days apart.

Now the fun part. Could I describe what the second man looked like? Hmmmm...No. I might be inclined to say he was Hispanic because my neighbor is, but being honest with myself, I really don't know. I could not tell you his age either. All I know is that he looked male and would be too stocky to be a woman.

How about what they were wearing? Well, they were digging a hole so they must have been wearing jeans, beige work jackets, and boots...right? Well, I know they were not wearing suits or dresses, because that would have stood out. So they must have been wearing work clothes because they did not register. As to describing them though, I cannot.

Did I notice anything unusual, such as a garbage bag next to the hole they were digging? No. I glanced for maybe two seconds, long enough to wave and be on my way. :wave:

Back to the Amscot employee...I think she either mixed her days up, or simply recalled seeing a different white vehicle (any make or model and with or without the nose bra). Honest mis-association. :angel:
 
this is the part that puzzles me most. the amscot manager is adamant that the car was already abandoned there when he arrived that morning, yet it would be hours until she calls for help, at which point tony arrives to rescue casey who was standing around carrying a bag of groceries which seem to have come from the anthony house and the ice-pops were even still frozen. who was driving miss casey?

I'm starting to become a little skeptical that the groceries were from her parent's. How would Tony know whether freezer pops and chicken were in a grocery sack from her parents house vs. a grocery sack from a grocery store? The only evidence he gave for that conclusion was that they "looked" like they would be from her parents house. Also, if you look at that Amscot on Google, it shares a parking lot with a grocery store.
 
A more general consideration is:

IMO KC is unlikely to have abandoned the car because she did not have a snowball in Hell's chance of replacing it! No money.

Even her new "Party Friends" had jobs and school, so KC had to have some means of getting about during the day? If you believe in fairy tales, she needed a car to get to work?

...and if you wanna say she was frugal you'd say she wanted to get her (or George's) money's worth outta the repairs she complained about to Amy in early May, "Oh. Ha ha. It wouldn’t turn on. My transmission was dead. I’m out almost 500 to get it replaced. That’s other vehicle 1300 in a month! I’m so mad." :rolleyes:

...or still...she wanted to abandon it 'cause she wanted the insurance money to get a new car 'cause she followed that up with..."You’re telling me. I need a new car pronto."

...but...the car was Cindy's (ok, it was Lee's that had been returned to Cindy and given to Casey to use, but titled to Cindy)...so...insurance money no go to Casey no way, no how, Ki-mo-sah-bee.

:doh:

Very simply, yes, Casey needed wheels.
 
Do you think JB will try to say that Caylee accidentally died in the trunk of the Pontiac where KC put her after she was unable to find a babysitter in time for her hot date? KC normally put Caylee in the trunk late at night and got her out early in the morning while it was still cool but this time it was earlier in the afternoon when the temperature was still hot. The next morning when KC found Caylee and it was too late, she was too afraid to tell anyone, didn't know what to do, so she winged it as usual and ignored her dead baby.

Locking your child in a car trunk for a few minutes would be considered child abuse. (running into the store, child locked in car) Keeping the child there as a sitter situation, is really child abuse. Hours of abandonment in an oven)

Child dying during child abuse, makes the abuser eligible for DP. Not sure
 
A little OT example, but I think we can all relate.

If LE were to come to my door :cop: and ask if I saw the neighbor across the street digging in their front yard recently, I would say yes, in fact I saw two men digging as I was leaving mid-afternoon to go to a game. When? Maybe last week...but it could have been two weeks ago. I'm really not sure but I know it had to be last week or the week before.

Looking at my calendar, it had to be one of three possible days, but I am not sure. It was sunny out, so if I refer to weatherunderground, I eliminate one of the two days. Notice how I had to do research :sleuth: to first figure out there were three possible days and then do additional research to eliminate one of those days. I could not with any certainty tell you which of those two days - and they are six days apart.

Now the fun part. Could I describe what the second man looked like? Hmmmm...No. I might be inclined to say he was Hispanic because my neighbor is, but being honest with myself, I really don't know. I could not tell you his age either. All I know is that he looked male and would be too stocky to be a woman.

How about what they were wearing? Well, they were digging a hole so they must have been wearing jeans, beige work jackets, and boots...right? Well, I know they were not wearing suits or dresses, because that would have stood out. So they must have been wearing work clothes because they did not register. As to describing them though, I cannot.

Did I notice anything unusual, such as a garbage bag next to the hole they were digging? No. I glanced for maybe two seconds, long enough to wave and be on my way. :wave:

You know, JWG. What scares the helloutta me...is that all makes perfect sense. :eek: :bang: WTH are we doin' :confused:

Back to the Amscot employee...I think she either mixed her days up, or simply recalled seeing a different white vehicle (any make or model and with or without the nose bra). Honest mis-association. :angel:

Methinks Vicky prolly noticed the car when she left for the day 6/27, and, then, upon arrival 6/28 7AM she says to herself, "Self, that car was here yesterday." So...in Vicky's mind, the notion that the car might need to be towed got associated with seeing it upon arrival @ work 7AM...and further associated with it being left there 6/27...these two things get smooshed together after a a few weeks elapsed into 'the car was there 7AM 6/27'. Tada!
 
...and if you wanna say she was frugal you'd say she wanted to get her (or George's) money's worth outta the repairs she complained about to Amy in early May, "Oh. Ha ha. It wouldn’t turn on. My transmission was dead. I’m out almost 500 to get it replaced. That’s other vehicle 1300 in a month! I’m so mad." :rolleyes:

...or still...she wanted to abandon it 'cause she wanted the insurance money to get a new car 'cause she followed that up with..."You’re telling me. I need a new car pronto."

...but...the car was Cindy's (ok, it was Lee's that had been returned to Cindy and given to Casey to use, but titled to Cindy)...so...insurance money no go to Casey no way, no how, Ki-mo-sah-bee.

:doh:

Very simply, yes, Casey needed wheels.
You and JWG present convincing evidence that KC was trying real hard to get some gas to the car and retrieve it. She had not abandoned it.
I imagine she thought the Dead body smell would be gone or going at least, with the actual body having now been removed.
Having failed to get to Amscot in time:
Short term she had Tony's jeep/Amy's car, so no doubt put "getting Pontiac back" on the back-burner.
 
Casey left the Pontiac chock-full of evidence. It had Amy's resume, a handwritten note with Ric and Amy's new address and personal papers including the Mrs. Casey Lazzaro page. The trunk was full of trash from Tony's apartment including receipts with Tony's roommate's names.

Most don't leave detailed directions to ALL their hide-outs in a car reeking of dead body fluid (on purpose).

Tony left town June 30. As soon as he was gone Casey was knocking on Amy's door and getting her to go with her to get a gas can. Tony picked Casey up onJune 27, a Friday afternoon. With all TL's teasing about maybe "not coming back from NY". Casey was probably stuck to him like glue cementing the relationship before he left. However the MINUTE he left Casey headed over to Amy's to get a gas can.

Casey probably intended to detail the car herself while Tony was gone. That way there would be no chance of him coming around to see what she was doing and asking to "help". If I were in Casey's shoes and needing to clean up a dead body, I'd rather do it when there was no chance of anyone else being around.

But she waited too long to get the car. Oops. Now what? No way could she call LE and report the car with dead baby hair and decomposition in the trunk...stolen. Oh well...
 
In many ways Casey is dumb as rocks and smart as a fox. The key to her guilt/innocence lies not in what she says or does but what she doesn't say or do. The forensics will tell the story.
 
You and JWG present convincing evidence that KC was trying real hard to get some gas to the car and retrieve it. She had not abandoned it.
I imagine she thought the Dead body smell would be gone or going at least, with the actual body having now been removed.
Having failed to get to Amscot in time:
Short term she had Tony's jeep/Amy's car, so no doubt put "getting Pontiac back" on the back-burner.

At the risk of going :eek:fftopic:again, I went to Scandinavia for three weeks with my youngest brother 20 years ago on a driving / camping trip. My brother hates fish :trout: so about the only thing he would eat over there was sausage. He bought some type of sausage in Norway with the name Spaak, made, IIRC, of whale meat. Personally, I did not think it smelled very good. It smelled even worse after he left half of it in the car for the day while we went hiking. :sick:

Even though we threw this half-eaten sausage out the car stunk for the remaining two weeks of the trip. We drove with the windows down and aired the thing out all the time. We returned the car in Hamburg, Germany, and a week later I see an 80 DM charge added to my bill for cleaning. I disputed the charge :argue: and recall a conversation with a rep over the phone where she related that they had never had a car smell that bad. Blame Spaak, I told them. :thumb:

Point is
, if KC had ever bothered travelling to Norway and left half a Spaak in her car for even a day, she woulda known that smell was not going away on its own. :no:
 
At the risk of going :eek:fftopic:again, I went to Scandinavia for three weeks with my youngest brother 20 years ago on a driving / camping trip. My brother hates fish :trout: so about the only thing he would eat over there was sausage. He bought some type of sausage in Norway with the name Spaak, made, IIRC, of whale meat. Personally, I did not think it smelled very good. It smelled even worse after he left half of it in the car for the day while we went hiking. :sick:

Even though we threw this half-eaten sausage out the car stunk for the remaining two weeks of the trip. We drove with the windows down and aired the thing out all the time. We returned the car in Hamburg, Germany, and a week later I see an 80 DM charge added to my bill for cleaning. I disputed the charge :argue: and recall a conversation with a rep over the phone where she related that they had never had a car smell that bad. Blame Spaak, I told them. :thumb:

Point is
, if KC had ever bothered travelling to Norway and left half a Spaak in her car for even a day, she woulda known that smell was not going away on its own. :no:

:doh: Now JB can use that as defence!

The old "Spaak in the trunk" defence!

:couch: Do not accept envelopes from strangers! Could be a subpoena as defence witness? :eek:

(Mind you KC will open herself up to charges at the Hague for trafficking in Whale meat?)
 
Casey left the Pontiac chock-full of evidence. It had Amy's resume, a handwritten note with Ric and Amy's new address and personal papers including the Mrs. Casey Lazzaro page. The trunk was full of trash from Tony's apartment including receipts with Tony's roommate's names.

Most don't leave detailed directions to ALL their hide-outs in a car reeking of dead body fluid (on purpose).

Tony left town June 30. As soon as he was gone Casey was knocking on Amy's door and getting her to go with her to get a gas can. Tony picked Casey up onJune 27, a Friday afternoon. With all TL's teasing about maybe "not coming back from NY". Casey was probably stuck to him like glue cementing the relationship before he left. However the MINUTE he left Casey headed over to Amy's to get a gas can.

Casey probably intended to detail the car herself while Tony was gone. That way there would be no chance of him coming around to see what she was doing and asking to "help". If I were in Casey's shoes and needing to clean up a dead body, I'd rather do it when there was no chance of anyone else being around.

But she waited too long to get the car. Oops. Now what? No way could she call LE and report the car with dead baby hair and decomposition in the trunk...stolen. Oh well...

Have we ever considered that perhaps KC WANTED and/or NEEDED Amy and Tony to be in the Amscot parking lot in hopes that someone would later remember seeing one of their cars, if and when this all came to light???? Was she setting the stage for one of her "new" friends to become the prime suspect in Caylee's disappearance? Her relationship with TL was brief and not very solid....he wouldn't take her calls from jail! And, well need I say, poor Amy turned out to be a mark for money!! JMO...
 
The only conclusion to the death smell in the car..."abandoned car" (which I don't believe it was abandoned) etc...is that KC killed Caylee and had no help in doing so. Mothers do kill their own kids without help. While it might be HARD FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND...I believe in my heart that this tiny, cute to the eyes person (KC) KILLED HER OWN CHILD without help!!!!!!
And I don't believe she dumped the car. I believe she ran out of gas and would rather spend money (stolen) at Target than to spend money on gas.
 
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