The ransom note & Patsy Ramsey, letter by letter.

[eileenhawkeye]

There have always been reports in the news about terrorists kidnapping civilians and beheading them. Since the RN mentioned a "foreign faction" perhaps the R's were thinking of the beheadings that go on some foreign countries?

There was a story in 1995 about four tourists from Spokane, Washington who were abducted in India, and one of them was beheaded.

The only cases I could find (prior to 12/25/96) where a child was beheaded were Adam Walsh and a little girl in St. Louis who was found beheaded in an abandoned building in 1983. A 1988 article said they still hadn't identified her. I don't think that case got too much attention outside of St. Louis (or even much in St. Louis either) so the chance of the Ramseys hearing about it and then remembering it when writing the RN 12 years later would seem pretty slim. However, with Adam's case, since his dad has a weekly TV show, it would be more likely that the R's knew about him being beheaded and that they would still remember that happening to him 15 years later.

 

[Tadpole12]

You know what, madeleine? JR HAD TO HIRE John Douglas for his team. Just think what would have happened if Boulder LE had beat him to the punch. The Ramseys would have been arrested. I have no doubt about that. They used his book to plan out the staging and then gave him only information that made them look good. Douglas is on my list with Tracey and A. Jones.

heyya joeskidbeck.

I have yet to read Mindhunter. Ah, so many things to do ... But I've always been interested in the suggestion that the staging was influenced by JD's book.

Has anyone among us read it?

 

[joeskidbeck]

heyya joeskidbeck.

I have yet to read Mindhunter. Ah, so many things to do ... But I've always been interested in the suggestion that the staging was influenced by JD's book.

Has anyone among us read it?

Hi Tadpole. I read the book many years ago and I do remember that there is a chapter devoted to familial homicides and how they are staged to look like something other than what actually happened. There is also a chapter about "undoing" and showing remorse about the crime. John Douglas could have been the man to make someone pay for JonBenet's death and the atrocities committed upon her body, but for whatever reason, he laid aside his ethics and partnered with the Ramseys.

 

[BBB167893]

You know what, madeleine? JR HAD TO HIRE John Douglas for his team. Just think what would have happened if Boulder LE had beat him to the punch. The Ramseys would have been arrested. I have no doubt about that. They used his book to plan out the staging and then gave him only information that made them look good. Douglas is on my list with Tracey and A. Jones.

Just wait until people read what I've written about him.

 

[cynic]

Just wait until people read what I've written about him.

I’m guessing it’s not that you respect his ability to never sell out?

 

[BBB167893]

I’m guessing it’s not that you respect his ability to never sell out?

You got that right.

 

[madeleine]

and the fact that G.McCrary turned them down tells me a LOT.JD wasn't the R's first choice.

 

[JenniferTx]

I have always believed that Patsy wrote the RN and the reason she wrote it was to protect Burke. I still believe he is the one responsible for her death. JMO

 

[wonderllama]

Dave, I hope that in your chapter where you are critical of John Douglas you aren't attempting to discredit the guy altogether.

I have all his books and a lot of his work is clearly phenomenal. His history speaks for itself and he clearly is an intelligent man who has a very large skill.

We all know he's ballsed this one up big time, but a combination of single source, incomplete information, personal arrogance and the lack of following up down the track is what he should be called out on.

Allow me to use a baseball analogy.
It's like Babe Ruth claiming to have hit a home run in his final Major League game in Philadelphia in 1935 - it may not be correct, it may be a lie, it may be the most ludicrous story you've ever heard....but it doesn't undo the rest of his career.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Dave, I hope that in your chapter where you are critical of John Douglas you aren't attempting to discredit the guy altogether.

I have all his books and a lot of his work is clearly phenomenal. His history speaks for itself and he clearly is an intelligent man who has a very large skill.

We all know he's ballsed this one up big time, but a combination of single source, incomplete information, personal arrogance and the lack of following up down the track is what he should be called out on.

Allow me to use a baseball analogy.
It's like Babe Ruth claiming to have hit a home run in his final Major League game in Philadelphia in 1935 - it may not be correct, it may be a lie, it may be the most ludicrous story you've ever heard....but it doesn't undo the rest of his career.

I agree, wl. To discredit all 0f JD's work because of the decisions he made in the Ramsey case is kinda like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I'm also pretty sure that I will be studying most of his work next year in Criminal Psych and I am looking forward to it. I just can't wrap my head around why he fell for the Ramsey's BS! The funny thing is, if I had never read any of his books then I might still be a loyal IDI. For this I salute him!

 

[BBB167893]

Dave, I hope that in your chapter where you are critical of John Douglas you aren't attempting to discredit the guy altogether.

I have all his books and a lot of his work is clearly phenomenal. His history speaks for itself and he clearly is an intelligent man who has a very large skill.

We all know he's ballsed this one up big time, but a combination of single source, incomplete information, personal arrogance and the lack of following up down the track is what he should be called out on.

Allow me to use a baseball analogy.
It's like Babe Ruth claiming to have hit a home run in his final Major League game in Philadelphia in 1935 - it may not be correct, it may be a lie, it may be the most ludicrous story you've ever heard....but it doesn't undo the rest of his career.

Well, why not SHOW you what I wrote:

Douglas's ego is clearly out of control, made obvious by every interview he gives concerning the case. He advised the Boulder police to work with the FBI, then became angry when the FBI disagreed with him. One even said, "if the Ramseys aren't guilty, I'll turn in my credentials." He denies his own writings about staging to say that the scene wasn't staged, and seems to bear Det. Thomas a special grudge for having the temerity to point out how Douglas sold himself out like the worst *advertiser censored* in the street. I personally would consider it a badge of honor to be hated by this guy.

 

[wonderllama]

Noice.
I feel better now.

I really do wonder, given the enormous number of seemingly intelligent and professional people involved in this case who have reached apparent contradictory conclusions, if John Ramsey doesn't just have a large collection of photos of people in compromising positions with farm animals or something.

Surely it can't just be about money or power can it?
I mean are we heading 7 deadly sin territory here?
Pride? Greed? Envy? (yes that's 3, just move along).

There's nothing that frightens me more than smart people making dumb decisions in spite of evidence pointing out that they are mistaken.
It surely HAS to be pride...and from that, what is it that makes some people more comfortable than others to completely forgo reasoning and logic for the sake of not admitting they are wrong?

There must be some sort of formula/equation we can apply to personality types which will reveal the chances that they will put themselves ahead of a criminal investigation?

As I said, John Douglas is a smart, intelligent and logical thinker who has used his skills and abilities to help solve some of the worst crimes around, and yet here he has parted with his established knowledge and deviated from the logical path.
We know WHY he reached his conclusions, but we are left to ponder at what stage pride took precedence over justice.

John Douglas needs to know that not only has he done himself a disservice by not 'amending' his conclusions, but he has done the victim a disservice.

Nobody likes to think they can be fooled, but rather than being fooled by a master criminal like Hannibal Lecter, perhaps Mr Douglas is embarrassed about being fooled by Mr & Mrs Nobody.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Nobody likes to think they can be fooled, but rather than being fooled by a master criminal like Hannibal Lecter, perhaps Mr Douglas is embarrassed about being fooled by Mr & Mrs Nobody. snipped and BBM

I honestly believe this is what happened. Some folks have really big egos (and at one time, JD certainly had good reason) BUT he lost his credibility with the very people that he trained. How humiliating would that be? We heard an example of Patsy's acting on the 911 call so it was probably John's acting that won JD over. Either that or the Alpha Male bond was just too strong to resist!

 

[BBB167893]

Noice.
I feel better now.

I really do wonder, given the enormous number of seemingly intelligent and professional people involved in this case who have reached apparent contradictory conclusions, if John Ramsey doesn't just have a large collection of photos of people in compromising positions with farm animals or something.

Surely it can't just be about money or power can it?
I mean are we heading 7 deadly sin territory here?
Pride? Greed? Envy? (yes that's 3, just move along).

There's nothing that frightens me more than smart people making dumb decisions in spite of evidence pointing out that they are mistaken.
It surely HAS to be pride...and from that, what is it that makes some people more comfortable than others to completely forgo reasoning and logic for the sake of not admitting they are wrong?

There must be some sort of formula/equation we can apply to personality types which will reveal the chances that they will put themselves ahead of a criminal investigation?

As I said, John Douglas is a smart, intelligent and logical thinker who has used his skills and abilities to help solve some of the worst crimes around, and yet here he has parted with his established knowledge and deviated from the logical path.
We know WHY he reached his conclusions, but we are left to ponder at what stage pride took precedence over justice.

John Douglas needs to know that not only has he done himself a disservice by not 'amending' his conclusions, but he has done the victim a disservice.

Nobody likes to think they can be fooled, but rather than being fooled by a master criminal like Hannibal Lecter, perhaps Mr Douglas is embarrassed about being fooled by Mr & Mrs Nobody.

Llama, did you ever read the Odyssey? After Odysseus was captured by the Cyclops, he told the monster that his name was "Nobody." So that when he stabbed its eye out and its friends asked who did it, all the Cyclops could say was, "Nobody did it."

 

[Fortress]

I have always been fascinated that the note writer used the word attache case.
As someone who would never hear or use that word... I wondered what part of the US uses that word the most for bag, tote, briefcase, etc....

To me that one word eliminated a lot of people as the writer of the note.

Do you use that word and if so, what part of the US are you from or where did you learn to use it as opposed to another word. If you were writing a ransom note would you use the word bag, case, ....

Sorry if this has already been discussed somewhere. I am new.

 

[Fortress]

Dave, I hope that in your chapter where you are critical of John Douglas you aren't attempting to discredit the guy altogether.

I have all his books and a lot of his work is clearly phenomenal. His history speaks for itself and he clearly is an intelligent man who has a very large skill.

We all know he's ballsed this one up big time, but a combination of single source, incomplete information, personal arrogance and the lack of following up down the track is what he should be called out on.

I was a big fan of John Douglas but then I think I saw him as an analyzer on a dating show.... didn't I?

I read his book Cases that Haunt Us and what struck me was his prejudice IMO in being more favorable toward "nice, respectable" people - that he could not conceive of Patsy killing JonBonet and then being so terrified to admit it that she would go to such massive excess as further violating the body. To me, what PR did (IMO) is exactly what someone in her respectable position would do, not wanting her husband to know, not wanting to lose everything.

Douglas seemed to have no ability to believe that respectable women, with money, can freak out and act completely nuts. Hormones are unknown to him in profiling, I guess, unless you are lower class.

Douglas did great work and was early in profiling. Since then we've learned a lot more and know not to just look for the loner, in a low paying job... etc..

 

[joeskidbeck]

Welcome Fortress!

 

[cynic]

I have always been fascinated that the note writer used the word attache case.
As someone who would never hear or use that word... I wondered what part of the US uses that word the most for bag, tote, briefcase, etc....

To me that one word eliminated a lot of people as the writer of the note.

Do you use that word and if so, what part of the US are you from or where did you learn to use it as opposed to another word. If you were writing a ransom note would you use the word bag, case, ....

Sorry if this has already been discussed somewhere. I am new.

Welcome Fortress.

Patsy Ramsey was said to be quite enamored with French culture.
Their dog was a Bichon Frise, a breed which was very popular in France, the translation from French is “small curly haired dog.”
They gave the dog a French name, Jacques.
She gave her daughter a name with the French accent aigu (acute accent) over the second letter “e” in her name, JonBenét
Her home reflected the interest in French culture.
The living room furniture was reproduction French provincial, and the walls were hung with 19th-century French and English oil paintings.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 106

The way she was promoting JonBenét was a further indicator.
Throughout it all, she steered her daughter through the world of child beauty pageants, a time-consuming effort that fueled the shared dream of Patsy and her mother and sister that JonBenét might someday grab the gold ring that Patsy and Pam had missed and become Miss America. My profile of Patsy led me to believe that she had gone beyond living vicariously through her daughter. She was enhancing JonBenét’s pageant resumes with such things as violin and French lessons, and was even attributing highly improbable quotes to the child, such as how the world would be a better place if we planted daffodils. Just to have JonBenét win titles didn’t seem to be enough for Patsy. It seemed to me that she sought perfection.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 92


If you’re interested, an excellent analysis of the ransom note can be found here:
[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6404"]Analysis of the Linguistics and Handwriting in the Ramsey Ransom Note - Forums For Justice[/ame]

 

[BBB167893]

I read his book Cases that Haunt Us and what struck me was his prejudice IMO in being more favorable toward "nice, respectable" people - that he could not conceive of Patsy killing JonBonet and then being so terrified to admit it that she would go to such massive excess as further violating the body. To me, what PR did (IMO) is exactly what someone in her respectable position would do, not wanting her husband to know, not wanting to lose everything.

Douglas seemed to have no ability to believe that respectable women, with money, can freak out and act completely nuts. Hormones are unknown to him in profiling, I guess, unless you are lower class.

Sadly, Fortress, it was that very belief that crippled this case more than anything else. And you don't have to take my word for it, either.

WONDERFUL post.

 

[cynic]

I have always been fascinated that the note writer used the word attache case.

In addition to my previous post, I should add that Patsy did an adaptation of The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie in her pageant days and some say that it might explain two things in the ransom note.
Misspelling the word “possession.”
Use of the word "attaché."
"My talent is a dramatic interpretation that I wrote based on a portion of The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. I play two characters — Miss Mackay, the stern head mistress, and Jean Brodie, the eccentric, vivacious school teacher. When I won second place in the National Forensic Tournament in Philadelphia the interpretation was 10 minutes long. For the talent competition it had to be cut to two minutes and 50 seconds. It's very difficult to establish character and build to a dramatic climax in less than three minutes."
Beautiful Case of Determination, The Charleston Gazette, June 22, 1977

Monica, whose face was becoming very red, swung the attaché case, which held her books so that it hit the girls who stood in its path and made them stand back from her.
The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, Muriel Spark

“Oh dear.” said Rose out loud one day when they were settled to essay writing. “ I can’t remember how you spell “possession.” Are there two s’s or …?”
The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, Muriel Spark