The Suitcase - Duvet, Sham & Dr. Suess

[UKGuy]

Just for background - PR Interview June 23 1998

20 TOM HANEY: If there was something in it it
21 would belong to John Andrew then?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
23 TOM HANEY: Did John Andrew have a Dr. Seuss
24 book.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Did John Andrew have a Dr.
0416
1 Seuss book? (Inaudible).
2 TOM HANEY: Or when he was older, like now?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I hope not. He is supposed to
4 have college books, not Dr. Seuss books.
5 Why would you ask such a question?
6 TOM HANEY: Well, that is because in that
7 suitcase was a Dr. Seuss book.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: What book was it? Did it have
9 any kid's name in it?
10 TRIP DEMUTH: That I don't know. I think it
11 had John Andrews' name in it.

questfortrue,
What is curious about this line of questioning is that it is put at all! Interviewers know the case belongs to JAR, that the book belongs to JAR, more so if its the Adult book.

Yet they ask and PR knows what to ask immediately: Did it have any kid's name in it?

Trip Demuth has a I think answer for a reply, neither side wish to give much away here.

If the Dr. Seuss book is the Adult one then I reckon the suitcase and those photographs could belong to JAR given the anecdotal evidence regarding an obsession with JonBenet?

If its not the adult one then its prior use can be questioned, particularly in relation to JonBenet.

.

 

[DeDee]

Like so many things in this case, it is what the Rs and their lawyers DON'T want the public to know that fairly screams their involvement.
I, like many others, have long known about a Dr Seuss book being in the suitcase with the comforter/duvet. But never knew the title. The comforter was said to be from his dorm room and likely brought home for laundering over the Christmas break. There is nothing unusual about that, nor is there anything unusual about dried semen being found on the bedding of a young man.
What WOULD have been suspicious is a CHILDREN's Dr Seuss book along with it. The "adult" Dr Seuss book would not be unusual (though I find ALL Dr Seuss books creepy, that's just me).
So the Rs taking special measures to keep the title of the book secret suggests, to me anyway, that it was a children's book, and what I take from LE's comments to Patsy, it was a book that had JAR's name in it, possibly a book he had as a child himself.
Try as we have over the years, there is no way I can see that ties that suitcase to the crime except in the minds of Lou Smit and the RST who so quickly jumped on Smit's fantasy that an "intruder" used it to climb on with a much-more-stable chair right nearby.
Dried semen cannot be "dated"- cannot be linked to the time of the crime. It belongs to a family member, who had a legitimate reason to have it there (brought home for laundering). Had it belonged to someone else who did NOT reside in the home, it would bear more suspicion. Had it matched the "rogue TDNA" even more suspicious. But the semen belonged to the owner of the bedding, and its presence is not unusual.
This does not mean to say that I do not feel it is possible JAR molested JB on that comforter and the semen is from that- it certainly could be the case. What I am saying is that there is no way to prove that or legally tie it to her molestation/death.
There has been information from time to time that one of JB's hairs was also on that bedding, but I do not think that has been confirmed.

The adult Dr. Seuss book is directly connected to the murder of this young victim by way of the blue duvet and sham that were also in the "old, hard, Samsonite".


JonBenet Ramsey was lying on the dark blue duvet some time during the night she died. Fibers from the duvet and sham were on the tape placed on her little mouth.

My post #78 from the "JAR's semen on the blanket in a suitcase in the basement" thread.

One of the blue duvet and sham fibers was lifted off JonBenet's white shirt from the right back shoulder. The dark blue duvet and sham fibers are on the vaginal area of her body that was covered in size 12 panties and longjohns, where the tDNA was collected, also had fibers matching John's black Israeli shirt that came from her external vaginal area. And the only place fibers link JR's clothing to the death of JonBenet are on the vaginal area along with blue fibers from the duvet.

Understand why he [Lou Smit] disregards the fiber evidence due to his intruder theory. He so badly wanted an intruder to have access to that blue suitcase. But it would not fit out that window. They kept the adult book of nude drawings secreted so we would not put much stock into that suitcase. Ignore it. It's nothing. Isn't that what Patsy would tell us about the evidence? She didn't give a flying flip about the evidence. She demanded it be retested! They refused to ever acknowledge that JonBenet had been molested. That adult book tells us JB was being groomed to enjoy being in the nude.

They did not want the public to just dismiss the Dr Seuss book as being innocent so much as they intended for us to never, ever connect that "old, hard, Samsonite" and dirty little secrets that it held.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10230748&postcount=78"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - JAR's semen on the blanket in a suitcase in the basement.[/ame]

 

[DeDee]

This thread rocks! You guys really did some fabulous brainstorming based on facts! Only half way through the thread but wanted to post these thoughts rather than clog the thread with multiple new posts.


To use Patsy's description, the "old, hard Samsonite" suitcase stored a dirty little secret: blue duvet and sham and the adult Dr. Seuss book.


The Samsonite begins its journey at the Ramsey's in JAR's room when he brings it home from college. We know he arrived at his mother's in GA on Wednesday, Dec. 19.


The Samsonite is moved, by someone, to the laundry area on the 2nd floor. There is a pic that shows this area to be complete with a space saving stackable washer and dryer. (This will be significant later.) There is also a sink, ironing board, microwave oven and iirc, a dorm size refrigerator.


The housekeeper, LHP, hid BR's knife, in the cupboard, under where the extra linens were stored in this area, to prevent cleaning the shavings from the whittling BR enjoyed. This knife later appears in the basement. More specifically, this knife ends in the concrete hellhole with JonBenet.


John was questioned about the cigars stored in the concrete room. Patsy said he kept the box of cigars in there because the room was cool and humid; but, she doesn't mention that it was also dark. John said he had only smoked two of the cigars. There has been speculation regarding the cigar box including that JB stored little keepsakes inside. The cigar box is pictured in the concrete room sitting on top of paint cans.


We know Patsy smoked and that she smoked a big cigar during her 40th birthday party celebration in Denver in late November. You know the party where the 4nikators played and male strip teasers entertained.


So, Patsy celebrated her 40th, reveling with friends, aboard a charted bus to and from the Brown Palace in Denver. PR prepared to bury her little girl on her actual 12/29 birthdate. * MOO that PR did not completely pack for the Disney Cruise because she knew she would not be going and/or it meant nothing to her, even though, in her interview, she claimed the family's clothing was packed for the Florida trip, with the exception of JR, who would do his own.


Consider, for a moment, that John lied about when he moved the suitcase and it was not months earlier but actually around the 19th.


So, the Samsonite was (a ) in JAR's bedroom on the 19th then is moved by someone to (b) the 2nd floor laundry area. The R's have a party in their home on December 23. Although it possibly could be later, or earlier, JR moves the Samsonite, while he was cleaning for the party, as he stated, from the 2nd floor down to (c) the laundry area of the basement on or around Monday the 23rd. Based on JR's recollection, the Samsonite should not be there, referring to (d) the room in the basement with the broken window. (This becomes significant later.)


The Samonsite luggage weighed seven pounds. Add two pounds for the weight of the duvet, sham and the adult Dr Seuss book and we're at 9 pounds. Incidentally, JB weighed 45 + 9 = 54 pounds. ST wrote that the Samsonite would not fit out the window of the basement even though I think someone tried it. That is why the suitcase was left in the broken window room. JB was taken out, strangled and placed in the hellhole on a white blanket.

JB's pink pajama top that goes with the pink pj bottom that is on her bed has not been located, TMK. We know she wore these two items in the Christmas morning snapshot.

For bedtime, JonBenet wore, according to PR interviews:

Night of Dec 23 - possibly the pink gown with the large Barbie face on it that is later found with the victim's body with blood stains on it along with PR & BR tDNA.

Night of Dec 24 - to bed and woke up on Christmas morning wearing the two piece pink pjs that later have the top missing.

Night of Dec 25 - long johns and star GAP shirt (with size 12 panties).


We know the duvet and sham are connected to JBR via fibers

1. from JonBenet's white shirt from the right back shoulder area (IIRC, Ardnt stated that she saw the coroner place this in an evidence envelope when he viewed the body at 8pm.
2. on the vaginal area of her body that was covered in size 12 panties and
   longjohns, where the tDNA was collected, also had fibers matching John's black Israeli shirt that came from her external vaginal area.

The only place fibers link JR's clothing to the death of JonBenet are on the vaginal area along with blue fibers from the duvet. They do not belong there.

JR hired a lawyer for his children and ex-wife. When authorities went to speak to JAR, his lawyer would not allow it. That is because the Samsonite with the duvet, sham and the adult book of nude drawings allegedly belonged to JAR. JR did not want his son questioned about the movements or contents of the Samsonite luggage. And maybe JR did not want his son, JAR, to be questioned about the adult book. Maybe that is why JAR suggested the killer be forgiven.


JonBenet was in direct contact with the duvet and sham and her father's black Israeli shirt on the night of her death. This is what her body tells me.

 

[DeDee]

Her's another thing about that suitcase. People pack clothes, not bedding, into a suitcase. They would be more likely to put bedding in a bag or just toss it on a seat. But, say JAR did pack the bedding. Wouldn't he have unpacked it at the Rs so it could be washed? If the bedding was important enough to pack, then he wanted to hang on to it and use it again, or he would have tossed it. (on a sidenote...my husband works at a university and kids DO throw perfectly good stuff in the dumpster. Actually, we recently got a brand new comforter set and a little white tv/vcr combo for my daughter. Another man got a 50 inch tv, (minus the remote), because a guy dumped it because he didn't want to move it). Here's another thing. It was late December and JR said the suitcase had been in the basement for 3 months. That would have been September. So, how long was the suitcase in the house before it got moved to the basement? Did JAR bring it in September, right after the start of a semester? Or did he bring it during the summer? If so, Why? Or did he bring it during the last spring semester? If it was way back in the spring, (during moving), why did the suitcase's presence not bother JR until September? IMO, the only way JAR bringing the bedding in a suitcase makes sense, is if he was moving, (not coming for a little visit), and everything had to go. Otherwise, he would have carried the suitcase back with him. But then again, we have to ask why the suitcase didn't bother JR until September?

dodie, please know that your posts are most enlightening and rarely opinionated, if ever, making them quite easy to follow.

This has quickly become a favorite thread. You guys seemed to really be enjoying the aftermath of Kolar's revelations, esp. the family's dynamics.

People pack clothes, not bedding, into a suitcase.

People pack clothes, not bedding!!! The actual length of time the Samsonite spent in the R home has not been confirmed bc we do not know when it arrived. An accurate, as possible, timeline is crucial. It is possible that JAR brought the Samsonite into the home when the university dismissed for the Christmas break. JAR flew into GA on Dec. 19. Therefore, the Samsonite has one of two possibilities. It was already in the R's home or JAR left it in Boulder before his departure flight on 12/19.

Either way, JAR's blue Samsonite was in the R home, at the least, from Dec 19 forward. Whether the semen stained bedding was inside the Samsonite when it arrived or if it was inserted by PR JR or BR has yet to be determined AFAIK.

<respectfully snipped>

So, if my understanding is correct then I cannot see why anyone could have doubt in validity of CBI findings. In another word, forensic connection between duvet and JB shirt exist. Hence, duvet has connection with murder!

You'll probably ask: why we never read about these fibers in PMPT, ST or Kolar books?...why this particular evidence has kept under such a quiet cover?...IDK, but somehow I feel (speculating!) that there is more to the story (on the duvet!) than we (the public) have privy to know.

jmo

:happy4th:

 

[DeDee]

First, I’m not accusing Schiller of any falsification. There are, however, some inaccuracies and distortions in his production which Tricia pointed out, and I won’t go into those. I also know from ST’s book that many things were leaked, even though LE is certainly not in the habit of giving out actual reports to producers of TV documentary enactments. Was it a copy of a report which was given to the R’s through their lawyer? Or did the reporter JS have a copy of this report and gave a copy to Schiller? Who would know? It is also a possibility that all the info in the screen shot is true, but that the screen shot is a “simulated” report, not the actual report.

If Schiller had in his possession a copy of an actual report, I’d be a little surprised, but not totally, since a lot of info got out. If someone told Schiller this, and he or the Court TV editor constructed a report for TV purposes, again, it may be accurate or it might not be. Would depend who told him. (As an example, someone apparently told Schiller, and it’s in the documentary, that the DNA was sourced to a Caucasian male. Scientifically speaking, not possible to source race from DNA.)

FWIW, I still look at this as a great find on your part, but I know to be careful with info from TV productions which are dramatized for affect. Nom’s post much more concise than me! :seeya:

JMHO

IDI if ever there was one! Schiller received a scolding in the email communications. Lawrence Schiller was detail oriented. He ordered a studio designed to replicate the 755 15th Street home.

Agreed that PB is not the best source for reliable information. That particular quote was selected to highlight that the fibers were located on the 6yo victim's vaginal area.

This screenshot image has been available since July 2006. Eight years it took for someone to notice the adult Dr Seuss book?

How much authenticity has been placed on this screenshot image? What is known about the tape? Screen capture from the same program:

Screenshots from the JonBenet: Anatomy of a Cold Case are found here:

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-20060707-courttv-anatomy-cold-case.htm

 

[DeDee]

My responses are in purple. RBM

We know how the suitcase got under the window - FW set it there. He said so. We know how the glass got on the suitcase - FW picked it up off the floor (or was it the window ledge?) and set it on the suitcase. He said so.

FW also made Burke's bed while waiting for BR to dress and prepare to go to the White's home for the day after Christmas. Is that why Patsy nicknamed him Mr. Mom? <brief snip>

IMO there is no way the window remained unfixed from summer through Christmas. The window was broken the night of the 25th/morning of the 26th.

I agree it was intentionally broken for the purpose of this crime.

While it's possible that JB was placed in the suitcase, unconscious but alive, and taken downstairs, I'm not sure why this would be done. It's easier just to carry her down, sans suitcase.

No kidding. Patsy could manage but that's 2 flights of stairs.

I'm not really sure she'd actually fit in the suitcase, but let's say yes, for the time being. Does the killer know she isn't dead? He must, as there would be no reason to take her out later if she's dead. At least there is no reason not to put her back, after garrotting her, if the suitcase is the planned method of removing the body from the home. We know she wasn't in the suitcase when JR "found" her, so either the suitcase was never part of the plan, or the plan changed, but why would it change?

There should be no doubt that the contents of the suitcase were in contact with JBRs clothing; specifically, the white shirt, back right shoulder on the twilight of her death.

************
MIKE DOBERSEN - My experiments, and the observations that we made and all the work that's been done, I feel that I can testify to a reasonably degree of medical certainty that these are stun gun injuries.

<snipped for space>

NARRATOR - What happened next to JonBenét is clear.

LOU SMIT - We're fairly certain that JonBenét was taken from her room down this spiral staircase. <snip> We know that the killer brought JonBenét down into this basement, there's no doubt about that, and we found some very significant evidence in this room.

NARRATOR: Smit says in the room in the basement where there was evidence of a break-in, something else significant was found.

LOU SMIT - There were items in that suitcase which contained fibers which were found on the outside of the clothing of JonBenét. Is it possible that her killer tried to put JonBenét in that suitcase? Is it possible that he tried to take her out this window in this suitcase? <snip>
http://www.jameson245.com/doc2usa.htm
*************

If she'd been placed in the suitcase to be carried from her room to the basement the sham and duvet would have had to be removed up stairs. That would mean JR would have to go back up and get them, then carry them down and put them back in the suitcase. That would also mean he put the book in the suitcase which must mean it was in the suitcase when it was upstairs - otherwise why do it? Which doesn't solve the riddle of why a Dr. Seuss book is in the suitcase in the first place.

Correct. The riddle of why the adult Dr. Seuss book is inside the luggage and blue fibers on JBRs clothing, consistent with fibers from the duvet/sham, inside the luggage has not been solved.

<snip>

So, the most sensible thing to do is say that the suitcase may or may not have been involved in the crime, and there is no way to tell. It's a time waster and an energy waster. There is no reason to speculate that JBR may have been placed in the suitcase at any time because we cannot confirm or falsify such a claim. We cannot solve the crime by looking at the suitcase.

I politely disagree. The 7lb Samsonite hard suitcase, by way of the blue duvet/sham, is connected to the murder since blue duvet/sham fibers are on her white clothes. Why would the killer need to read JonBenet the adult Dr. Seuss book with nude drawings and one is of a woman defecating outdoors on a pile of hay?

<snip> I wouldn't touch their book with latex gloves on.

lol

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Along came Mary Macgregor, the last member of the set, whose fame rested on her being a silent lump, a nobody whom everybody could blame. She still wore the green uniform of her old school The others wore deep violet. The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie.

 

[Tawny]

What?

 

[DeeDee249]

I am not even going to bother saying AGAIN why she couldn't have been put IN the suitcase. I'll let someone else do it this time.

 

[MyBelle]

I am not even going to bother saying AGAIN why she couldn't have been put IN the suitcase. I'll let someone else do it this time.

I'm sorta flabbergasted anyone actually believes she fit into that suitcase to begin with.

 

[midwest mama]

I'm sorta flabbergasted anyone actually believes she fit into that suitcase to begin with.

Check this out:
http://www.geocities.com/astrospy/suitcase.jpg

The pbworks website said an internet poster named MIKIE posted this as a possibility of how to put her into the suitcase.

 

[Tawny]

My understanding is that the basement was used for storage of random things. Why is the presence of a children's book in a suitcase significant in that regard?

 

[DeDee]

As I recall from Patsy's first interview with Trujillo and Thomas, Patsy was asked about JARs suitcase as if LHP, the housekeeper, had recently borrowed it.

If LHP borrowed the Samsonite, and returned it empty, who put the items into the suitcase as it was found with the incriminating duvet, sham and Dr. Seuss book inside and when was that placed inside there exactly?

The interview with ST & PR and the suitcase:

ST: He’d walk through the house whittling and for the tape, I’m showing Patsy a photo of a little red Swiss army knife.
PR: Right. He had one we had gotten him in Switzerland, it h ad his mane on it. Does this have his name on it?
ST: I don’t know.
PR: You don’t know, OK
ST: And I have spoken with Linda, and she’s identified this suitcase as belonging to, well not necessarily belonging to, but a suitcase that she has used and that John Andrew has used, and that John Andrew likely had left at your house.
PR: Right.
ST: Do you recognize that blue suitcase?
PR: Yes.
ST: OK. Can you tell me anything about it?
PR: Well, just it’s old hard Samsonite or whatever, you know.
ST: And what this something that John Andrew let at the 15th Street home while he went to school at CU?
PR: Yeah, yeah, that’s to my recollection. Yeah, he moved out here with a bunch of stuff and then he left a lot of stuff t our house that he didn’t want to take to the dorm.
ST: Do you know where he kept that in your home, or where you last saw that?
PR: No, I don’t remember where I last saw it.


Isn't it ironic that JAR is associated with the possible murder weapon by having presented it to his dad and his suitcase is a personal molester's kit in the basement at the open window waiting to be noticed?

Somebody did a good job on that set up.

 

[SweetT]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-42846.html

"Here is something no one talks about. This is not the definition of a sham and a duvet, as any homemaker knows. We've been told a comforter was in the suitcase. Now, what was really in the suitcase and why? Has it been ruled out as having anything to do with the killer's/kidnapper's plans or not?

This is from a 1998 interview with John Ramsey and Lou Smit. Both Smit and Ramsey are wrong about what a sham is and what a duvet is. What else might everyone wrong about? PS for anyone who doesn't know, a sham is a pillow case for show only that is taken off at night and not slept on. A duvet is a comforter or quilt with a washable cover, sometimes used without a cover, usually down filled and sometimes polyester filled.

Is this the same suitcase that was supposedly filled with JBR's sheets? Or was that another suitcase? I ask as this is actual testimony and not tabloid stories.

---------
LOU SMIT: And I would like to ask
2 you just some questions. Do you know what a
3 sham is or a duvet?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
5 LOU SMIT: Two type of things?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: Sham is a blanket,
7 right? But duvet, I don't know.
8 LOU SMIT: Do you recall any shams
9 or duvets being in your house? I know if you
10 don't know what a duvet is, you probably don't
11 know to say it was in there but --
12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.
13 A sham, I mean I don't know if I
14 know what a sham was, a small blanket. That's
15 purely a guess, but we had lots of little
16 blankets and stuff like that around.
17 LOU SMIT: How about a Dr. Suess
18 book, do you remember anything in a Dr. Suess
19 book, either associated with John Andrew or
20 associated with JonBenet or anything that --
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had lots of
22 kids' books. We had bookshelves full of them.
23 I know that they had -- I know I read to 'em,
24 Dr. Suess books, so I am sure they were there.
25 LOU SMIT: Do you know why there
0714
1 would be a sham and duvet and a Dr. Suess book
2 in that suitcase?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Could you tell me
4 what a duvet is?
5 LOU SMIT: A duvet is also
6 something that fits on like on a couch or almost
7 a little blanket that fits on a couch.
8 JOHN RAMSEY: A square or does it
9 fit?
10 LOU SMIT: Yes. I have never seen
11 this, I don't have a photograph of it, but can
12 you think of why there would be a sham or duvet
13 in John Andrew's suitcase along with a Dr. Suess
14 book?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: No. My recollection
16 of where that suitcase came from was he brought
17 some clothes from Atlanta, where he went to
18 school, and when the kid left to go to school be
19 and every port in a storm in his apartment, and
20 it ended up and it was in his room for a while,
21 then it was in the laundry room outside of his
22 room for a while, and then I carried it
23 downstairs. I presumed it was empty."

Do we even know for sure if this was a duvet cover in the suitcase?

 

[bettybaby00]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-42846.html

"Here is something no one talks about. This is not the definition of a sham and a duvet, as any homemaker knows. We've been told a comforter was in the suitcase. Now, what was really in the suitcase and why? Has it been ruled out as having anything to do with the killer's/kidnapper's plans or not?

This is from a 1998 interview with John Ramsey and Lou Smit. Both Smit and Ramsey are wrong about what a sham is and what a duvet is. What else might everyone wrong about? PS for anyone who doesn't know, a sham is a pillow case for show only that is taken off at night and not slept on. A duvet is a comforter or quilt with a washable cover, sometimes used without a cover, usually down filled and sometimes polyester filled.

Is this the same suitcase that was supposedly filled with JBR's sheets? Or was that another suitcase? I ask as this is actual testimony and not tabloid stories.

---------
LOU SMIT: And I would like to ask
2 you just some questions. Do you know what a
3 sham is or a duvet?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
5 LOU SMIT: Two type of things?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: Sham is a blanket,
7 right? But duvet, I don't know.
8 LOU SMIT: Do you recall any shams
9 or duvets being in your house? I know if you
10 don't know what a duvet is, you probably don't
11 know to say it was in there but --
12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.
13 A sham, I mean I don't know if I
14 know what a sham was, a small blanket. That's
15 purely a guess, but we had lots of little
16 blankets and stuff like that around.
17 LOU SMIT: How about a Dr. Suess
18 book, do you remember anything in a Dr. Suess
19 book, either associated with John Andrew or
20 associated with JonBenet or anything that --
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had lots of
22 kids' books. We had bookshelves full of them.
23 I know that they had -- I know I read to 'em,
24 Dr. Suess books, so I am sure they were there.
25 LOU SMIT: Do you know why there
0714
1 would be a sham and duvet and a Dr. Suess book
2 in that suitcase?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Could you tell me
4 what a duvet is?
5 LOU SMIT: A duvet is also
6 something that fits on like on a couch or almost
7 a little blanket that fits on a couch.
8 JOHN RAMSEY: A square or does it
9 fit?
10 LOU SMIT: Yes. I have never seen
11 this, I don't have a photograph of it, but can
12 you think of why there would be a sham or duvet
13 in John Andrew's suitcase along with a Dr. Suess
14 book?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: No. My recollection
16 of where that suitcase came from was he brought
17 some clothes from Atlanta, where he went to
18 school, and when the kid left to go to school be
19 and every port in a storm in his apartment, and
20 it ended up and it was in his room for a while,
21 then it was in the laundry room outside of his
22 room for a while, and then I carried it
23 downstairs. I presumed it was empty."

Do we even know for sure if this was a duvet cover in the suitcase?

O.M.G.!!!!

If the situation weren't so serious, it would be comical. I get that JR might not understand exactly what these items are even though he probably had them on his own bed. It's not ok, however, for LS to use terms during an interview with a possible murder suspect and not know exactly what he's referring to!

:banghead:

Do we have any idea how and when those items were classified as being a sham and a duvet?

 

[Tadpole12]

We know how the suitcase got under the window - FW set it there. He said so. We know how the glass got on the suitcase - FW picked it up off the floor (or was it the window ledge?) and set it on the suitcase. He said so.

FW also made Burke's bed while waiting for BR to dress and prepare to go to the White's home for the day after Christmas. Is that why Patsy nicknamed him Mr. Mom? <brief snip>

IMO there is no way the window remained unfixed from summer through Christmas. The window was broken the night of the 25th/morning of the 26th.

I agree it was intentionally broken for the purpose of this crime.

While it's possible that JB was placed in the suitcase, unconscious but alive, and taken downstairs, I'm not sure why this would be done. It's easier just to carry her down, sans suitcase.

No kidding. Patsy could manage but that's 2 flights of stairs.

I'm not really sure she'd actually fit in the suitcase, but let's say yes, for the time being. Does the killer know she isn't dead? He must, as there would be no reason to take her out later if she's dead. At least there is no reason not to put her back, after garrotting her, if the suitcase is the planned method of removing the body from the home. We know she wasn't in the suitcase when JR "found" her, so either the suitcase was never part of the plan, or the plan changed, but why would it change?

There should be no doubt that the contents of the suitcase were in contact with JBRs clothing; specifically, the white shirt, back right shoulder on the twilight of her death.

************
MIKE DOBERSEN - My experiments, and the observations that we made and all the work that's been done, I feel that I can testify to a reasonably degree of medical certainty that these are stun gun injuries.

<snipped for space>

NARRATOR - What happened next to JonBenét is clear.

LOU SMIT - We're fairly certain that JonBenét was taken from her room down this spiral staircase. <snip> We know that the killer brought JonBenét down into this basement, there's no doubt about that, and we found some very significant evidence in this room.

NARRATOR: Smit says in the room in the basement where there was evidence of a break-in, something else significant was found.

LOU SMIT - There were items in that suitcase which contained fibers which were found on the outside of the clothing of JonBenét. Is it possible that her killer tried to put JonBenét in that suitcase? Is it possible that he tried to take her out this window in this suitcase? <snip>
http://www.jameson245.com/doc2usa.htm
*************

If she'd been placed in the suitcase to be carried from her room to the basement the sham and duvet would have had to be removed up stairs. That would mean JR would have to go back up and get them, then carry them down and put them back in the suitcase. That would also mean he put the book in the suitcase which must mean it was in the suitcase when it was upstairs - otherwise why do it? Which doesn't solve the riddle of why a Dr. Seuss book is in the suitcase in the first place.

Correct. The riddle of why the adult Dr. Seuss book is inside the luggage and blue fibers on JBRs clothing, consistent with fibers from the duvet/sham, inside the luggage has not been solved.

<snip>

So, the most sensible thing to do is say that the suitcase may or may not have been involved in the crime, and there is no way to tell. It's a time waster and an energy waster. There is no reason to speculate that JBR may have been placed in the suitcase at any time because we cannot confirm or falsify such a claim. We cannot solve the crime by looking at the suitcase.

I politely disagree. The 7lb Samsonite hard suitcase, by way of the blue duvet/sham, is connected to the murder since blue duvet/sham fibers are on her white clothes. Why would the killer need to read JonBenet the adult Dr. Seuss book with nude drawings and one is of a woman defecating outdoors on a pile of hay?

<snip> I wouldn't touch their book with latex gloves on.

lol

Heyya DeDee,

'adult Dr. Seuss book'
Well, I was not aware of this possibility.
I'm glad I read Green Eggs and Ham first, ......

Dr. Seuss's Little-Known Book of Nudes
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai.../dr-seusss-little-known-book-of-nudes/253891/

 

[SweetT]

I wanted to say that everyone in our house has duvets, down filled ..and duvet covers. We live in a cold state and it is very common for people here to have duvets year round. I would imagine Colorado is probably the same. So I dont think it odd or weird that JAR Would have a duvet, my son has one..and a cover. Even the hotels here all have them. The last two days weve had highs only in the 50's and in the 30's at night. So you definitely need them.

I also am totally not surprised about a sham and duvet in a suitcase at the Ramsey house, even a book. It's obvious to me that just because someone has money does not mean they are clean or organized. I cannot believe that house, and even with a maid it is not what I would call anywhere near clean. I think they were all used to living in a hell hole. I would not be surprised if JAR took his dirty bedding and threw it into a suitcase just because. I mean seriously they had feces stained clothing all over the kids rooms, shirts wadded up in sinks and God knows what all.

My son is this way. He goes to visit his father out of state and when he comes home you can tell he just picked up whatever was on the ground etc. He has come home with his dads clothing, his step moms clothing and random items from around their home that obviously were on the floor. And still not manage to get all the things he left my home with. He'll say his room is clean, but stuff will be stuffed under beds, in closets, in dressers just to avoid having to actually clean...At my house, I am the maid..LOL!
I guess I just do not find those things totally weird. Sloppy, lazy, trashy yes.

I also could see how PR Fibers could end up on JBR. If her and JR were hugging, consoling etc that morning before he found JB then her fibers would be on JR. So when he finds JB, they transfer to her...that is an easy scenario.

I honestly think that something happened to JB and the parents were not ready to deal with it that day..It was more important for whatever reason for them to go to MI that day..They would deal with JB when they got back. So the kidnapping thing started, hoping this would get LE looking anywhere else except their home, so they could get to MI. When they realized LE wasn't leaving it was on to plan B. JR retrieves the body so that LE can get on with themselves, still hoping maybe this would pave the way for them to leave..I mean, they didnt have anything to do with it, the kidnappers did. JMO.
What was so important about MI? Was it just that their partying and selfish desires were more important than their children?

 

[Theonly1]

In one of JRs interviews he mentions a "new" suitcase. Correct me if it was not JR interview. He was talking about in the basement and I think he said Samsonite. What "new" suitcase?

 

[Venom]

I wanted to say that everyone in our house has duvets, down filled ..and duvet covers. We live in a cold state and it is very common for people here to have duvets year round. I would imagine Colorado is probably the same. So I dont think it odd or weird that JAR Would have a duvet, my son has one..and a cover. Even the hotels here all have them. The last two days weve had highs only in the 50's and in the 30's at night. So you definitely need them.

I also am totally not surprised about a sham and duvet in a suitcase at the Ramsey house, even a book. It's obvious to me that just because someone has money does not mean they are clean or organized. I cannot believe that house, and even with a maid it is not what I would call anywhere near clean. I think they were all used to living in a hell hole. I would not be surprised if JAR took his dirty bedding and threw it into a suitcase just because. I mean seriously they had feces stained clothing all over the kids rooms, shirts wadded up in sinks and God knows what all.

My son is this way. He goes to visit his father out of state and when he comes home you can tell he just picked up whatever was on the ground etc. He has come home with his dads clothing, his step moms clothing and random items from around their home that obviously were on the floor. And still not manage to get all the things he left my home with. He'll say his room is clean, but stuff will be stuffed under beds, in closets, in dressers just to avoid having to actually clean...At my house, I am the maid..LOL!
I guess I just do not find those things totally weird. Sloppy, lazy, trashy yes.

I also could see how PR Fibers could end up on JBR. If her and JR were hugging, consoling etc that morning before he found JB then her fibers would be on JR. So when he finds JB, they transfer to her...that is an easy scenario.

I honestly think that something happened to JB and the parents were not ready to deal with it that day..It was more important for whatever reason for them to go to MI that day..They would deal with JB when they got back. So the kidnapping thing started, hoping this would get LE looking anywhere else except their home, so they could get to MI. When they realized LE wasn't leaving it was on to plan B. JR retrieves the body so that LE can get on with themselves, still hoping maybe this would pave the way for them to leave..I mean, they didnt have anything to do with it, the kidnappers did. JMO.
What was so important about MI? Was it just that their partying and selfish desires were more important than their children?

BBM
That could happen, except reports are they did not console each other, or hug.

 

[SweetT]

They could have consoled or hugged before other persons got there to observe, just saying.