The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree?

[beccalecca1]

This person could very well have been FCA and since she ain't talking, we'll never know. If I was in her shoes, I think I would have tried to clean the car after dumping the body.

I guess she got lucky and didn't kill herself with those levels of chloroform.

 

[sacrablue]

I guess she got lucky and didn't kill herself with those levels of chloroform.

Do you understand that chemicals are measured in ppm...parts per million?

 

[sacrablue]

The LE investigators plainly said it was the cleanest car trunk they had ever seen. A Cindy trait there. Certainly not a Casey trait.

Again, George knows what trace evidence is. That car was vacuumed I would bet. The A's had a major problem on their hands and the cover up was in full gear. George just wanted to get the Pontiac home from the tow yard without making waves.

 

[beccalecca1]

Do you understand that chemicals are measured in ppm...parts per million?

Yes, I'm not sure what this is getting at. According to what I recall from Testimony, Vass said the amounts were in the ppb range, meaning way more then your average reading.

Also, this handy link provided shows roughly how much chloroform is needed to have a major effect on your heart... http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/rma/resourcenotebook/Chemicals/chloroform.pdf

 

[beccalecca1]

Again, George knows what trace evidence is. That car was vacuumed I would bet. The A's had a major problem on their hands and the cover up was in full gear. George just wanted to get the Pontiac home from the tow yard without making waves.

What I don't understand is that if GA vacuumed the trunk, why did he miss that pile of dirt?

But, I do agree that there could've been a cover-up on their part. If that did happen, then there wasn't off the charts chloroform IMO

 

[gxm]

Ok, again I ask why didn't Cindy "pass out" at the very least from the off the charts chloroform?

Because she wasn't locked inside it with duct tape over her nose and mouth?

 

[Schu7]

Ok, again I ask why didn't Cindy "pass out" at the very least from the off the charts chloroform?

Respectfully I hate to ask a question here. But what is "OFF THE CHARTS" for chloroform?

I think the truth is there was very little chloroform residue in the truck carpet. And that the testimony was a ruse. The chloroform was off the chats in comparison to what one should find on a car truck carpet. Meaning ZERO chloroform. So any chloroform becomes a "off the chart" event. That is why they got into the argument of a qualitative vs a quantitative amount of chloroform. Sadly the courts are a battle of words. Not a common sense search for the truth.IMO

 

[beccalecca1]

Respectfully I hate to ask a question here. But what is "OFF THE CHARTS" for chloroform?

I think the truth is there was very little chloroform residue in the truck carpet. And that the testimony was a ruse. The chloroform was off the chats in comparison to what one should find on a car truck carpet. Meaning ZERO chloroform. So any chloroform becomes a "off the chart" event. That is why they got into the argument of a qualitative vs a quantitative amount of chloroform. Sadly the courts are a battle of words. Not a common sense search for the truth.IMO

"off the charts" chloroform... well you'd have to ask Dr. Vass as that was his words.

As far as chloroform in the trunk carpet should be zero... I agree with you, but at the very least I've learned that chloroform is a by product of a lot of things being oxygenated. (I think that's the right word... I'm not a chemist:crazy

 

[Schu7]

I'm not a chemist:crazy

While be happy then.:rocker:

Yes Dr. Vass was a bad witness.IMO Too much technical stuff and not near enough simple common explanations. Just like I did not like the woman(I forget her name) who claimed 100% of parents phone 911 when there child goes missing. What an amazing statement to make! There are many reason's why parents do not call 911. Including that you have killed your child. Which sadly happens everyday. The arrogance of the procession's expert witness was insufferable to me. And the jury.

 

[LinTX]

I have to ask, if the chloroform in the drunk was "off the charts", how did SB not become affected when the trunk was opened and he reached in to retrieve the garbage bag? How was GA able to drive the car home without being knocked out? How was CA able to be in and out of the car "cleaning" it without being affected?

I will buy that possibly CA did more to the car then just spray febreeze. The car was aired out for hours and I have a hard time believing that throughout all of that chloroform magically stayed in the trunk and didn't dissipate in the air. I could believe that CA dumped bleach in the trunk (perhaps the whitish stain?) and closed it up trying to kill whatever germs/bacteria that was living in it. But, to believe that Casey chloroformed her daughter and the proof is in the trunk is just a hard stretch for me. Along with the "off the charts" amounts of chloroform.

All of those people were in contact a month after, and we've heard over and over how volatile it is. That chart you posted, if I'm reading it correctly, says for anesthesia it takes a lot (8,000-10,000 ppm). But I also remember the testimony during the trial about the heavier than air stuff, and since what didn't dissipate into the air would quickly vaporize in that heat, the vapors would basically be settled into the lowest area( the tire well) after a short time. The residuals remained but enough gas to affect someone would be gone fairly quickly.

I wasn't talking about CA cleaning the trunk up a bit...FCA evidently used paper towels to wipe off some of the grave wax, so assuming she may have vacuumed a few flies, etc. after she dumped the body isn't such a leap, IMO

 

[LinTX]

Respectfully I hate to ask a question here. But what is "OFF THE CHARTS" for chloroform?

I think the truth is there was very little chloroform residue in the truck carpet. And that the testimony was a ruse. The chloroform was off the chats in comparison to what one should find on a car truck carpet. Meaning ZERO chloroform. So any chloroform becomes a "off the chart" event. That is why they got into the argument of a qualitative vs a quantitative amount of chloroform. Sadly the courts are a battle of words. Not a common sense search for the truth.IMO

Not only was it 'off the chart' for carpet, it was way, way too high for it to have been a product of decomp. In the Frye hearing Vass said:

In that the actual amount of chloroform that is typically present in human decompositional remains was about eight times greater than you see in the control sample of the carpet. In the case of what was detected in the trunk material, that was about 10,000 times greater than what we would expect.

and

No. I say that because chloroform whenever we have seen it in the hundreds of bodies we've probably looked at over the years now, the maximum chloroform we've ever seen is parts per trillion.

 

[sacrablue]

All of those people were in contact a month after, and we've heard over and over how volatile it is. That chart you posted, if I'm reading it correctly, says for anesthesia it takes a lot (8,000-10,000 ppm). But I also remember the testimony during the trial about the heavier than air stuff, and since what didn't dissipate into the air would quickly vaporize in that heat, the vapors would basically be settled into the lowest area( the tire well) after a short time. The residuals remained but enough gas to affect someone would be gone fairly quickly.

I wasn't talking about CA cleaning the trunk up a bit...FCA evidently used paper towels to wipe off some of the grave wax, so assuming she may have vacuumed a few flies, etc. after she dumped the body isn't such a leap, IMO

4 drops of ink in a 55 gal drum of H2O is 1 ppm (part per million)
1 drop of ink in a large fuel tanker truck is 1 ppb (parts per billion)

So if you were to expect a chemical to read say 5 ppb in a test but it comes back showing 150 ppb, one could say it was off the charts but it still might not be enough to knock you out while working in the trunk. It is all relative and must be explained clearly which at times the trial failed to do so.

 

[beccalecca1]

All of those people were in contact a month after, and we've heard over and over how volatile it is. That chart you posted, if I'm reading it correctly, says for anesthesia it takes a lot (8,000-10,000 ppm). But I also remember the testimony during the trial about the heavier than air stuff, and since what didn't dissipate into the air would quickly vaporize in that heat, the vapors would basically be settled into the lowest area( the tire well) after a short time. The residuals remained but enough gas to affect someone would be gone fairly quickly.

I wasn't talking about CA cleaning the trunk up a bit...FCA evidently used paper towels to wipe off some of the grave wax, so assuming she may have vacuumed a few flies, etc. after she dumped the body isn't such a leap, IMO

Yes, it says for anesthesia, but also says for bradycardia, heartblock, a-fib, etc. These are serious conditions which can least to cardiac arrest (I believe that may have been on the list also?).

Now, if we're talking that the chloroform would've settled into the tire well, why did Vass find so much chloroform in his air samples? These samples weren't taken from the tire well, they were taken from the air in the trunk.

Also, the reference to CA cleaning the trunk was my post, which started this conversation. If I were to believe any one of the A's cleaned that trunk free of all entomological evidence related to Caylee's body; then I would either have to believe that there was a) no chloroform in the trunk at that time or b) there was chloroform and by the stroke of luck whoever was cleaning up all the evidence didn't pass out/die/suffer serious health issues from it. I'm leaning more towards "a"; I don't believe someone is that lucky.

 

[Silkprint]

Oh please!
If it was an accident then 911 would have been called
Caylee would have had a funeral
Her family would have mourned and Casey wouldn't have spent 3 years in jail
There would'nt have been a trial either.

 

[kelian36]

I have to ask, if the chloroform in the drunk was "off the charts", how did SB not become affected when the trunk was opened and he reached in to retrieve the garbage bag? How was GA able to drive the car home without being knocked out? How was CA able to be in and out of the car "cleaning" it without being affected?

I will buy that possibly CA did more to the car then just spray febreeze. The car was aired out for hours and I have a hard time believing that throughout all of that chloroform magically stayed in the trunk and didn't dissipate in the air. I could believe that CA dumped bleach in the trunk (perhaps the whitish stain?) and closed it up trying to kill whatever germs/bacteria that was living in it. But, to believe that Casey chloroformed her daughter and the proof is in the trunk is just a hard stretch for me. Along with the "off the charts" amounts of chloroform.

Bbm/no one knows how long the trunk was aired out.

The chloroformed child may be a stretch for you, bit it's not to most others.

 

[kelian36]

Ok... but if someone vacuumed the trunk, wouldn't that person have been affected? I'm not sure if the assumption is GA or CA vacuumed, but either way.... to clean up all the flies, this person would have to get face down in the trunk.

Not true. Vacuum cleaners have extension pieces that can reach for a foot or two.

 

[beccalecca1]

4 drops of ink in a 55 gal drum of H2O is 1 ppm (part per million)
1 drop of ink in a large fuel tanker truck is 1 ppb (parts per billion)

So if you were to expect a chemical to read say 5 ppb in a test but it comes back showing 150 ppb, one could say it was off the charts but it still might not be enough to knock you out while working in the trunk. It is all relative and must be explained clearly which at times the trial failed to do so.

I think when I have time I'm going to have to re-listen to Vass' testimony because I think I got that backwards.

I thought Vass testified that the normal range of chloroform (not off the charts) was in the ppm range, but this amount was so massive it was in the ppb range. Was it the other way around?

 

[beccalecca1]

Not true. Vacuum cleaners have extension pieces that can reach for a foot or two.

You're right, but if I were cleaning up a trunk to get rid of any/all evidence related to a crime, I would actually want to get close to make sure it got vacuumed up. I wouldn't rely on an extension piece to vacuum all the nooks and crannies and just hope it cleaned it up.

 

[kelian36]

I guess she got lucky and didn't kill herself with those levels of chloroform.

She got lucky when she lied and got her daughter a not guilty verdict.

That trunk WAS cleaned by someone.

 

[kelian36]

Yes, I'm not sure what this is getting at. According to what I recall from Testimony, Vass said the amounts were in the ppb range, meaning way more then your average reading.

Also, this handy link provided shows roughly how much chloroform is needed to have a major effect on your heart... http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/rma/resourcenotebook/Chemicals/chloroform.pdf

Trials over.

Verdict read.

What does this have to do with anything?