The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[Kamille]

Good morning,

I do think the last witness was testifying that the woman in the white jacket stood out to her because she felt it was too warm for the jacket. It stood out to her period. This is the only reason. Not that it was hot or cold but that the woman in the white jacket stood out

It just bothers me that the witness said "white puffy coat" when that jacket that TLM was wearing was anything but. It was a structured 3/4 length ski jacket with prominent black striping down both sleeves and around the very large hood on the back. And the woman did not notice any of these details but used the same term that the media had used to describe it.

A "puffy" coat would be more of a down filled bomber jacket IMO.

I do not doubt that the woman saw a woman in a white coat near the doors to the school on that or perhaps some other day but random eyewitness testimony is so unreliable and no one else saw this woman enter the school that day apparently.

There is also the testimony of the teacher who claimed that Victoria left the school alone and the grandfather who was quoted in the media as having seen Victoria outside alone when his grandaughter asked if they could drive her home.

And I'm sure if the Crown had known that the defense was going to call on this one unreliable witness who never told them that she saw the woman in the white coat entering the school, then they may have decided to put the grandfather on the stand as well.

They didn't because there appeared to be no issue that TLM had lured Victoria outside the school because she was the only child who appeared to be alone. And I still believe that to be the case.

MOO

 

[snoofer]

Here you supposedly have a guy walking around with no pants on, on a farm lane that he doesn't know at any minute the farmer is going to drive down. He also doesn't know if the neighbour across the road from the lane saw him drive in and called the owner........or the police.

Not exactly the typical scenario a pedophile would choose, I would think.

But, I guess it goes along with the rest of the story, where he kidnaps a young girl, drives 50 miles away to score some drugs and chat with an old friend, stop for a tea and some cash, buy a hammer and bags.........and head down a farm lane that he hopes is unoccupied and he won't be noticed going into.

He also hopes he isn't stopped by LE for some reason all along the way and that nobody notices a young girl in the backseat, and that TLM won't chicken out and let VS go,............and that his new "girlfriend", the heavily drug using TLM will keep their little secret.......just between them......long after he has dumped her.

Incredible story.....more incredible than the defense version I think.

To believe that story I would pretty much have to see MR standing at the ATM camera with drool coming out of his mouth.


Incredible? Really???

Let's say the farmer saw him drive into the laneway. He's going to assume that either he's taking his girlfriend there for sex or (possibly) to take photos or do drugs or whatever. It's not really going to harm the farmer's property. Why would he call the police? I grew up on a farm, and trust me, that stuff happens all the time. And frankly, if you called the police and said that you saw someone drive into your empty field - well, if they did show up it would be hours and hours later.

Let's say the worst happened and the farmer drove into the field and saw the guy with his pants off. He's going to assume he's either having sex with TLM or that he needed to go to the bathroom. But if they heard a tractor coming, MR could get back in the car, go behind a tree, whatever. TLM was dressed and watching out for just that eventuality, but it's not likely that at that time of year a farmer will show up.

Sure, there's always a risk of being stopped by LE. But that's unlikely, especially on those fairly deserted country roads. I'm sure he avoided speeding or anything that would attracted LE attention.

Did he have to trust TLM? I think he believed in his own ability to manipulate her. I think he believed that she'd be loyal to him (she'd said she'd "take the fall") because he recognized how needy she was. "A little bit of love."

Tink

and yet.....poof......TS badly decomposed and battered body was found; there in that same place, covered in garbage bags and rocks. Who can explain the criminal mind, the senselessness, the depravity and the NERVE of them. That is what makes them different from the rest of us. MOO

agrees...what if someone came by.....but YET; THERE IT IS!!! Her body was found there. MOO

 

[otto]

He did have a lint roller in his gym bag but i would guess it was tested?

My guess is that the lint roller explains why there was no hair from Victoria ... he used a lint roller many times on the coat after the murder and disposed of it.

 

[Kamille]

He did have a lint roller in his gym bag but i would guess it was tested?

It appeared to be the type that you conveniently rip off the part you've used, like tape, so I doubt there would have been anything on it.

MOO

 

[otto]

6 C today ... overcast ... heading out for the day ... what to wear ... think it will be a light winter/fall coat, no scarf.

 

[Oldsoul2]

I am not saying that she didn't, only that TLM testified that it was random. Who knows?

If, hypothectically, she did reveal that taking Tori was not random, than she would have to reveal why she purposely went to the school to take a child, which would mean there was a plan for that days events, which would in turn bring out the real motif. Saying it was a dare eliminates all motif and directly covers all evidence that would be revealed such as MR raping her. IMO he did rape her but not because he is a child molestor but because he had to (sorry, it's aweful...break her in) whether he was going to pimp her, deliver her, I don't really know. A dare is far fetched and makes no sense, theres no prior evidence to him ever raping a child even though he was around plenty of them, he was very money driven as we all saw, he stated Tori was given to him as a gift, IMO which means he didn't have to go take her himself, it all leads back to motif, criminals do not commit crimes for no reason and it's been studied that most criminals habitually repeat the crime and do it the same way over and over. He was a pimp with adults, now with children. He did in fact, try to sleep with every girl he first met right away?

 

[snoofer]

MR used his car for just about everything and it didn't seem to bother him. He doesn't strike me as particularly conscientious or clean, so I would expect the coat to have almost stood up by itself. I could see him having the coat cleaned after the murder, or maybe he used a lint roller regularly. He was prepared to throw away a car seat to hide the evidence, so he was aware of where evidence would be found. He was probably attached to the coat and he seemed to know that it didn't contain much in the way of evidence. Other than having it in the back seat of the car before the murder, he may have moved the coat before the assault to ensure that it wasn't covered in evidence.

and he might have taken a risk and just tossed it in the wash and see if it turns out. MOO Or someone at the house innocently washed it as a regular thing to do. JMO

 

[Jezbel]

So I understand this right, today was the first time the information that she went inside the school was mentioned ? She wasn't asked?

Also can some confirm the time frame of when Amanda dated mr? I think that's her name. The one that that had a daughter that was friends with tori.

CL I will try to find the link after, but iirc they started dating before Tori was taken. The day after she went missing I think Amanda testified that she had called MR and said that her friends little girl had gone missing. HTH

Found the tweets:


Chambers said they started communication near end of March 2009 they went out for coffee he came over to house [via Twitter]
10:53

RaffertyLFP: Chambers said she first met with Rafferty on April 3 2009 [via Twitter]
10:54

RaffertyLFP: They met at Tim Horton's - she was careful to meet at public place [via Twitter]
10:54

RaffertyLFP: Chambers said she had sex with Rafferty once [via Twitter]
10:56

RaffertyLFP: On April 9 Rafferty texted her Chambers had gone over to Tara's to support her after Tori disappeared [via Twitter]
11:00

RaffertyLFP: Chambers went over to McDonald to comfort , search for Tori [via Twitter]

11:02

RaffertyLFP: Rafferty texted her. Sounded surprised about Tori's disappearance said he woul look for her [via Twitter]

11:04

RaffertyLFP: They met next day at Tim Horton's Chambers said Rafferty tried to comfort her [via Twitter]

11:05

RaffertyLFP: He (Rafferty) seemed to be concerned about Tori "had a big heart" said Chambers [via Twitter]

11:06

RaffertyLFP: Chambers and Rafferty went bowling next day he left abruply he seemed "wierd" [via Twitter]

11:07

RaffertyLFP: They also met at Crabby Joe's He seemed jealous and weird [via Twitter]

11:08

RaffertyLFP: Rafferty told her he had a stepson that died - was contractor and dance instructor [via Twitter]

11:09

RaffertyLFP: Chambers said Rafferty knew that she knew Tara McDonald [via Twitter]

 

[snoofer]

6 C today ... overcast ... heading out for the day ... what to wear ... think it will be a light winter/fall coat, no scarf.

nuttin' heavier than a very stylish hoodie here and fabric scarf. Plus 7, overcast, wind is "still". But the plan is yardwork and a walk. Sweaty stuff! MOO

 

[snoofer]

If, hypothectically, she did reveal that taking Tori was not random, than she would have to reveal why she purposely went to the school to take a child, which would mean there was a plan for that days events, which would in turn bring out the real motif. Saying it was a dare eliminates all motif and directly covers all evidence that would be revealed such as MR raping her. IMO he did rape her but not because he is a child molestor but because he had to (sorry, it's aweful...break her in) whether he was going to pimp her, deliver her, I don't really know. A dare is far fetched and makes no sense, theres no prior evidence to him ever raping a child even though he was around plenty of them, he was very money driven as we all saw, he stated Tori was given to him as a gift, IMO which means he didn't have to go take her himself, it all leads back to motif, criminals do not commit crimes for no reason and it's been studied that most criminals habitually repeat the crime and do it the same way over and over. He was a pimp with adults, now with children. He did in fact, try to sleep with every girl he first met right away?

sadly...this would not surprise me :O( MOO Or some variation of that JMO

 

[Jezbel]

6 C today ... overcast ... heading out for the day ... what to wear ... think it will be a light winter/fall coat, no scarf.

It's currently 13c here today, I am wearing my winter coat and a light scarf lol, and I was still cold outside

 

[crazyladi]

He did have a lint roller in his gym bag but i would guess it was tested?

Ya but who doesnt pull off and throw out a used sticky from the lint roller? I wouldnt expect them to find anything

 

[crazyladi]

Why wouldn't MR tell police were the hammer is to clear his name? (finger prints)

Because all the evidence was long gone. Probably would never have been able to find it even if he told them.............eventually. He took part in this but doesnt tell the police where the murder weapon is??? Let me guess TLM took it with her and got rid of it is what he would say?

 

[Thinkzerz]

It's currently 13c here today, I am wearing my winter coat and a light scarf lol, and I was still cold outside

I guess it depends who you are because my neighbour is outside doing her gardening in a sweater. It's 11c here.

 

[crazyladi]

Found the tweets:


Chambers said they started communication near end of March 2009 they went out for coffee he came over to house [via Twitter]
10:53

RaffertyLFP: Chambers said she first met with Rafferty on April 3 2009 [via Twitter]
10:54

RaffertyLFP: They met at Tim Horton's - she was careful to meet at public place [via Twitter]
10:54

RaffertyLFP: Chambers said she had sex with Rafferty once [via Twitter]
10:56

RaffertyLFP: On April 9 Rafferty texted her Chambers had gone over to Tara's to support her after Tori disappeared [via Twitter]
11:00

RaffertyLFP: Chambers went over to McDonald to comfort , search for Tori [via Twitter]

11:02

RaffertyLFP: Rafferty texted her. Sounded surprised about Tori's disappearance said he woul look for her [via Twitter]

11:04

RaffertyLFP: They met next day at Tim Horton's Chambers said Rafferty tried to comfort her [via Twitter]

11:05

RaffertyLFP: He (Rafferty) seemed to be concerned about Tori "had a big heart" said Chambers [via Twitter]

11:06

RaffertyLFP: Chambers and Rafferty went bowling next day he left abruply he seemed "wierd" [via Twitter]

11:07

RaffertyLFP: They also met at Crabby Joe's He seemed jealous and weird [via Twitter]

11:08

RaffertyLFP: Rafferty told her he had a stepson that died - was contractor and dance instructor [via Twitter]

11:09

RaffertyLFP: Chambers said Rafferty knew that she knew Tara McDonald [via Twitter]

So to me it sounds Plausible that both MTR and TLM both could have over heard information about the child, school, mother, etc etc..

I find it all too coincidental that it was random with all of them knowing of each other.. However it definitely could be completely random and they didnt know until later and I think that is why she was killed. JMO

 

[snoofer]

I guess it depends who you are because my neighbour is outside doing her gardening in a sweater. It's 11c here.

yep and my husband would probably be doing yardwork in a t shirt with a long sleeve shirt under it...veritable fashion plate! And don't get me started on the socks with sandals! MOO

 

[Jezbel]

I guess it depends who you are because my neighbour is outside doing her gardening in a sweater. It's 11c here.

It's really overcast here, and I swear the building I work in is located in a wind tunnel lol

 

[snoofer]

So to me it sounds Plausible that both MTR and TLM both could have over heard information about the child, school, mother, etc etc..

I find it all too coincidental that it was random with all of them knowing of each other.. However it definitely could be completely random and they didnt know until later and I think that is why she was killed. JMO

or TS and TLM could be familiar in passing with each other but not KNOW each other. moo

time to get some work done; bbl MOO

 

[antiquegirl]

I agree. You don't find DNA in ordinary hair that falls out, only in hair that has been pulled out so the root is intact. Possibly there might have been some from tears or saliva, but that would deteriorate quickly especially if the coat was worn outdoors in rain or snow.

In fact, this is one of the things that makes me think MR is guilty of all the charges (even though in my heart I wish it wasn't true. I would so much rather believe that this child's last memories were NOT of being brutally raped.) If he was innocent, wouldn't it make more sense to tell police quickly when the DNA evidence could confirm his story? In the first days after Tori's murder, he could have easily proven that he didn't sexually assault her.

Tink

(RSBM)

I'm pretty sure that unless hair strands are broken off (say, by aggressive brushing), any that falls out naturally will include the root.

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP
Doupe said two blond hairs with active roots were removed from the pea coat by using tape

We shed an average of 50-100 hairs per day.

http://www.williamcollierdesign.com/normal-hair-loss.html

JMO

 

[Flowercb]

Barb Armstrong was quoted as saying she saw a dark haired girl in MR's car when MR purchased the drugs off of her that day . Where was Tori? She was in the car, she HAD to be in the car. If BA saw TLM, she would have seen Tori sitting in the back. I'm guessing BA was able to see into the car from the front windshield or the side windows. JMO

Or Tori was hidden in the back. I still think these two injected Tori with something to make her pass out. She would have been screeming if they didn't and would have been visible to others.