The "war",what was it all about

[MurriFlower]

of course RDI may be wrong but since they were KNOWN suspects it is perfectly fine to use their initials during theories....
I try to be as open as possible to any IDI theories but frankly it's hard when I go back and read the actual interviews,when I see their inconsitencies,when I see their media interviews,when I read DOI,it's very,very hard for me to imagine these are innocent poeple.If they are I just don't understand their actions at all.

C'mon, they weren't the ONLY suspects, even if BPD took no other's seriously. I'm as I said reluctant to name names, but there had to be LHP, B & J McR, CW, to name but a few (of the hundreds if BPD were to be believed). The fact that this forum is owned and run by RDI, for RDI means that despite RDI being in the 'past tense' (as far as any investigation is concerned), overwhelmingly the posters on this forum are RDI. No surprises there I suppose.

Let's just say it was me making the rules, things would be a lot different. Firstly we'd have and equal number of interviews (police and media) from all the suspects. We'd have closely examined their movements, their clothing, their handwriting, their fingerprints, their dna, their medications, their friends, their relatives, their previous relationships, we'd have interviewed their school pals, the people who lived next door when they were three, former workmates, the guy who repaired their car, their landlord. In other words, we'd know as much information about each of them as we do about the R's. And IF WE DID, there would be at least one of them (if not a whole bunch) who looked MORE guilty than either or both parents, or siblings or grandparents. GUARANTEED!!

Don't be fooled into thinking because they went 'Um, I don't remember', that makes them suspicious or that anyone else would have done any better.

Then they might have all written a book! Wow, what a revelation, if LHP's lame attempt is any indication. We could disect all this stuff for years if not decades. How scary is that??

 

[claudicici]

...that's exactly right.Since we have more information about the R's and they were THERE it's most likely to think of theories involving them.
We are not LE,we can not convict anyone of anything.We can only state our opinions.
Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

 

[DeeDee249]

They weren't the only suspects. BUT they were the only suspects who were in the house when she died.

 

[MurriFlower]

They weren't the only suspects. BUT they were the only suspects who were in the house when she died.

No, the killer(s) were there too!!

 

[DeeDee249]

No, the killer(s) were there too!!

Like I said.

 

[cynic]

Same here.I still think RDI is possible and it's not because of the evidence but because of their actions and behaviour.You can't charge someone based on that I know but IMO there still are a lot of questions the R's need to answer.

The questions I myself would have wanted to get an answer for were NEVER asked!


I would have asked them 100 times,
WHY DID YOU CALL LE AND YOUR FRIENDS AND THE PRIEST OVER IF THE NOTE SAYS SO MANY TIMES THAT IF YOU DO THAT SHE DIES?!

Oh officer,I didn't read the entire note.....

WHY DID YOU CALL LE AND YOUR FRIENDS AND THE PRIEST OVER IF THE NOTE SAYS SO MANY TIMES THAT IF YOU DO THAT SHE DIES?!
WHY DID YOU CALL LE AND YOUR FRIENDS AND THE PRIEST OVER IF THE NOTE SAYS SO MANY TIMES THAT IF YOU DO THAT SHE DIES?!
WHY DID YOU CALL LE AND YOUR FRIENDS AND THE PRIEST OVER IF THE NOTE SAYS SO MANY TIMES THAT IF YOU DO THAT SHE DIES?!

And this is only ONE of the questions that will always bug everybody...

http://tinyurl.com/2bkab4k
The above contains a brief layperson’s analysis of the ransom note.

A person commented on the possibility of a link between the ransom call in the movie Ruthless People and the ransom note in this case.

The ransom call from the movie "Ruthless People"

Mr. Stone?
Listen very carefully. We have kidnapped your wife.
We have no qualms about killing and will do so at the slightest provocation. Do you understand?
I have no patience for stupid questions, Mr. Stone, and I don't like repeating myself. Do you understand?
You are to obtain a new, black American Tourister briefcase, model number 8104. Do you understand?
In it you will place $500,000 in unmarked, non-sequentially numbered $100 bills. Do you understand?
Monday morning at 11:00 a.m., you will proceed with case in hand, to Hope Street Plaza and wait for a phone to ring. You will receive further instructions then. Do you understand?
You'll be watched at all phases of execution.
If anyone is with you or if any action is not carried out to our complete satisfaction, it will be considered an infraction of the rules, and your wife will be killed. Do you understand?
If you notify the police, your wife will be killed.
If you notify the media, she will be killed.
If you deviate from our instructions in any way whatsoever, she will be killed. Do you understand?


Excerpts from the RN in the JBR case:
Listen carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction.
The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
Don't try to grow a brain John.
Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank.
You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills.
You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities.
Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter.
If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies.

Interestingly, Mr Stone is overjoyed that his wife was kidnapped and, consequently, proceeds to do everything that the kidnappers tell him not to do in order to provoke them into killing her.
The kidnapper remarks incredulously as he watches the story on every channel of his television, “what did he do, hire a publicist?”
Is this any different from what the Ramseys did by calling the police and a number of their friends over for what could be described as a house party?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QJoV6_o5mU[/ame]

 

[DeeDee249]

In an attempt to be portrayed as "victims" from the start, they also invited "victim's advocates" to their home within MINUTES of discovering a RN telling them that their daughter would be killed if they even so much as talked to a stray dog. Almost like they already had a publicist or media advisor telling them what to do.

 

[BBB167893]

Let's just say it was me making the rules, things would be a lot different. Firstly we'd have and equal number of interviews (police and media) from all the suspects. We'd have closely examined their movements, their clothing, their handwriting, their fingerprints, their dna, their medications, their friends, their relatives, their previous relationships, we'd have interviewed their school pals, the people who lived next door when they were three, former workmates, the guy who repaired their car, their landlord. In other words, we'd know as much information about each of them as we do about the R's. And IF WE DID, there would be at least one of them (if not a whole bunch) who looked MORE guilty than either or both parents, or siblings or grandparents. GUARANTEED!!

No doubt. I'm sure that most of us could have done a better job.

Don't be fooled into thinking because they went 'Um, I don't remember', that makes them suspicious or that anyone else would have done any better.

It's not just that. I'm sure others would have given the same answers. The problem here is that their memories are awfully selective.

Then they might have all written a book! Wow, what a revelation, if LHP's lame attempt is any indication. We could disect all this stuff for years if not decades. How scary is that??

What is scary is that some of us have been dissecting it for years.

 

[Ames]

Perhaps I have my timeline all confused - but, sometimes I think it's because Fleet knew there was no body there earlier - and then, presto, it's there. He knew it wasn't there, because he checked that room. He knew something was afoot.

I still wonder that the R.'s thought they'd smuggle her body out. They still had planned to fly out to Atlanta. (and what the heck kind of parents do that when there child is supposedly abducted! :waitasec

I can't recall if they planned on leaving before or after her body was found. I do recall JR calling a lawyer pretty pronto. Forget the 'small foreign faction' - they were in it deep & they would have known just how, of course.

Anyway, I think FW put two & two together. But, why not just tell the truth - if he knew what really happened that night (which he might not have - he just knew there was no body at first).

Forgive me if I'm getting my timeline confused, etc. It's been awhile since I've pondered this all!

Yes, and he actually used the words "remaining family members" when making those reservations to leave.

 

[Ames]

She clarified this in her deposition:

"Q. And you had lost track of John Ramsey for a period between 10:40 and twelve o'clock?
A. No.
Q. You didn't see him during that period of time; is that correct?
A. No.
Q. It's not correct?
A. That is not correct.
Q. Didn't you report - all right. You said sometime between 10:40 and 12:00 he went out to pick up the mail.
A. No.
Q. What did you say?
A. I believe I worded it in my report rather vaguely, and what I worded and what has been put out in the media are not the same. I said something during that time frame I saw John reading his mail.
Q. We will get back to that later. But there was a period when you lost contact with him, is that right, personal contact with him?
A. I did not watch John Ramsey the entire time."

The fact was it was she who wasn't paying attention to what JR was doing. She cannot say it was his mail, he could have been reading anything. It's an RDI myth that he went out to get the mail.

When he went missing...for however long it was...one hour, two hours...IMO..he was moving JB's body, so that it could be found. This is why Fleet didn't see it the first time, and then John went right to it.

 

[MurriFlower]

When he went missing...for however long it was...one hour, two hours...IMO..he was moving JB's body, so that it could be found. This is why Fleet didn't see it the first time, and then John went right to it.

The point of the quote you posted:

"A. I did not watch John Ramsey the entire time."

was that he was not missing at all. It was she who was not paying attention to what he was doing. Two entirely different things, and not one that could lead you to the conclusion that he was moving a body.

 

[claudicici]

wow,those similarities with "the ruthless people" movie are sickening ,really.....
it was made in 1986.
the description of the movie " A couple, cheated by a vile businessman, kidnap his wife in retalitation, without knowing that their enemy is delighted they did." makes me cringe thinking about it under the context of this case.It opens up disgusting new thoughts/theories in my mind.....

 

[DeeDee249]

The point of the quote you posted:

"A. I did not watch John Ramsey the entire time."

was that he was not missing at all. It was she who was not paying attention to what he was doing. Two entirely different things, and not one that could lead you to the conclusion that he was moving a body.

True. Arndt was lax about many things that day. She also said (mistakenly) that JR "went to get his mail" when there is no evidence that he did any such thing. The R house didn't even have an outside mail box, but rather a mail slot in the front door. JR had to walk to his front door foyer to get his mail. But he WAS missing from her sight for about 2 hours, and many people feel that he was moving the body at that time. I don't necessarily think so, but if it was past the point that livor was already fixed, the body could have been moved and it wouldn't be apparent. That only happens during the time that livor is in the blanching (unfixed) stage. JB was in full rigor, so wherever she was moved from, if at all, she was in the same position from right after she died (on her back).

 

[Ames]

The point of the quote you posted:

"A. I did not watch John Ramsey the entire time."

was that he was not missing at all. It was she who was not paying attention to what he was doing. Two entirely different things, and not one that could lead you to the conclusion that he was moving a body.

Yes, he did go missing for awhile...and besides being missing while police were there.... See interview transcript below. John left and went down to the basement by himself, before police arrived...he says so himself....before going down with FW.
=======================================================================

1998 June 25, 26, 27 - Taped Interrogation interview of John Ramsey by Lou Smit and Michael Kane in Colorado

NE Book Page 302

John Ramsey: "(She said) When this person calls you've got to insist that you talk to JonBenet and stall for time. And I said why..? (She said) to tell him it's a hard job to raise this much money and use the time. But you must talk to JonBenet...."

Lou Smit: "...Did you ever go down to the basement?"

John Ramsey: "Uh huh. I went....I was by myself. There's three windows across here...the middle one...was broken. There was pane glass broken out of it, which I attributed to breaking myself... it was open (an inch or so) and there was a suitcase under it...this hard Samonsite suitcase...and I closed the window. I don't know why, but I closed it... I latched it... I don't think I looked anywhere else."

Lou Smit: "...Did you tell anybody about that?"

John Ramsey: "I don't really remember... part ofI mean what is going on, you're in such a state of disbelief this can happen. And the, you know, the window had been broken out. And you say, hah, that's it. But it was a window that I had used to get into the house before. It was cracked and open a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me. Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in because that basement could get real hot in winter...it was still sort of explainable to me that it could have been left open.....The suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all the way back there and put it against the window. I'm 99.9 percent (sure) that I wouldn't have taken it all the way back and set it against that wall."

Lou Smit: "Any other areas you looked at? You walked into that train room? Did you look at any of the closets or in any other areas?"

John Ramsey: "I don't remember doing that...."

Lou Smit: "You didn't go to the wine cellar at that time?"

John Ramsey: "No."

=================================================================================================

I find it quite odd that before police arrived, he went looking for JB....in the basement....saw an open window...and then closed it. He didn't think THAT was odd, but thought that the suitcase placement below it WAS odd. But, he STILL closed the window. And according to police, he didn't tell anybody about it. Why not???

 

[MurriFlower]

Yes, he did go missing for awhile...and besides being missing while police were there.... See interview transcript below. John left and went down to the basement by himself, before police arrived...he says so himself....before going down with FW.
=======================================================================

1998 June 25, 26, 27 - Taped Interrogation interview of John Ramsey by Lou Smit and Michael Kane in Colorado

NE Book Page 302

John Ramsey: "(She said) When this person calls you've got to insist that you talk to JonBenet and stall for time. And I said why..? (She said) to tell him it's a hard job to raise this much money and use the time. But you must talk to JonBenet...."

Lou Smit: "...Did you ever go down to the basement?"

John Ramsey: "Uh huh. I went....I was by myself. There's three windows across here...the middle one...was broken. There was pane glass broken out of it, which I attributed to breaking myself... it was open (an inch or so) and there was a suitcase under it...this hard Samonsite suitcase...and I closed the window. I don't know why, but I closed it... I latched it... I don't think I looked anywhere else."

Lou Smit: "...Did you tell anybody about that?"

John Ramsey: "I don't really remember... part ofI mean what is going on, you're in such a state of disbelief this can happen. And the, you know, the window had been broken out. And you say, hah, that's it. But it was a window that I had used to get into the house before. It was cracked and open a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me. Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in because that basement could get real hot in winter...it was still sort of explainable to me that it could have been left open.....The suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all the way back there and put it against the window. I'm 99.9 percent (sure) that I wouldn't have taken it all the way back and set it against that wall."

Lou Smit: "Any other areas you looked at? You walked into that train room? Did you look at any of the closets or in any other areas?"

John Ramsey: "I don't remember doing that...."

Lou Smit: "You didn't go to the wine cellar at that time?"

John Ramsey: "No."

=================================================================================================

I find it quite odd that before police arrived, he went looking for JB....in the basement....saw an open window...and then closed it. He didn't think THAT was odd, but thought that the suitcase placement below it WAS odd. But, he STILL closed the window. And according to police, he didn't tell anybody about it. Why not???

So did he go to the basement before or after the police arrived? You seem to have him going after the police arrived (when LA ws there) in one sentence and then before the police arrived in another.

 

[Ames]

So did he go to the basement before or after the police arrived? You seem to have him going after the police arrived (when LA ws there) in one sentence and then before the police arrived in another.

He went both times, that we know for a fact.....he did go missing for awhile, later too.....so, he COULD have been down there then too....THAT we do NOT know as a fact. I was simply stating...IMO....that when he went missing, he could have been moving the body, since when Fleet opened the WC door, he didn't see anything...and then, when John opened the same door, PRESTO....there she was in the middle of the floor. Why didn't Fleet see her the first time?? Anyway, it is a known FACT that John was there BEFORE and AFTER Police arrived....so what is your point?? He went to the basement TWICE that we know for sure of....ONCE by HIMSELF....BEFORE police arrived...and ONCE with FLEET when he was told to look for things that were out of place, and he headed straight to the basement.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I am on the fence but I'll be RDI for the purpose of this thread. Okay, first I doubt that both Fleet and John are involved in the murder. It's either one of them or none of them. If someone knows a secret about you that could land you in jail for the rest of your life, are you going to get into a huge fight with this person? Of course not. Even if one of them played a lesser role in the murder, they'll still keep their mouths shut because they will still get some jail time and their reputation will be ruined forever.

If the Ramseys did kill JBR, I doubt Fleet knows with 100% proof that they did, for example: a confession by one of the Ramseys. How would he? If they did tell him, then wouldn't he expose them as soon as he had the fallout with them? Why would he keep his mouth shut? And if you want to suggest that he was paid off, then why was he "allowed" to send those letters to public officials about the progress of the case?

 

[joeskidbeck]

I am on the fence but I'll be RDI for the purpose of this thread. Okay, first I doubt that both Fleet and John are involved in the murder. It's either one of them or none of them. If someone knows a secret about you that could land you in jail for the rest of your life, are you going to get into a huge fight with this person? Of course not. Even if one of them played a lesser role in the murder, they'll still keep their mouths shut because they will still get some jail time and their reputation will be ruined forever.

If the Ramseys did kill JBR, I doubt Fleet knows with 100% proof that they did, for example: a confession by one of the Ramseys. How would he? If they did tell him, then wouldn't he expose them as soon as he had the fallout with them? Why would he keep his mouth shut? And if you want to suggest that he was paid off, then why was he "allowed" to send those letters to public officials about the progress of the case?

I don't think FW knew for certain the Ramseys were guilty, but he had reasons to believe they were. He wasn't paid off and he did not have the proof that was needed in order to prosecute the Ramseys. I believe if he did, this would have been over long ago. I have more respect for Fleet White than anyone involved in this fiasco including LE and especially the DA's office.

 

[DeeDee249]

I am on the fence but I'll be RDI for the purpose of this thread. Okay, first I doubt that both Fleet and John are involved in the murder. It's either one of them or none of them. If someone knows a secret about you that could land you in jail for the rest of your life, are you going to get into a huge fight with this person? Of course not. Even if one of them played a lesser role in the murder, they'll still keep their mouths shut because they will still get some jail time and their reputation will be ruined forever.

If the Ramseys did kill JBR, I doubt Fleet knows with 100% proof that they did, for example: a confession by one of the Ramseys. How would he? If they did tell him, then wouldn't he expose them as soon as he had the fallout with them? Why would he keep his mouth shut? And if you want to suggest that he was paid off, then why was he "allowed" to send those letters to public officials about the progress of the case?

Why does it have to be both FW and JR or neither? FW may suspect the Rs had something to do with it, but unless they either told him (doubtful) or he was there (doubtful) he doesn't know for sure. As soon as he seemed to be implying something amiss, the Rs jumped up and began to cast suspicion on him and his wife (for saving a plate of crab for JB that JR ASKED her to save).
IMO, JR as well as Patsy know what happened, whether they killed her or not, they staged the crime. FW may suspect. But at this point, with Patsy dead, and JR and his lawyers ever vigilant for the slightest hint of blame coming their way, FW will keep his mouth shut. If he had PROOF, he'd speak up. Without it, he doesn't have a horse in this race.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Why does it have to be both FW and JR or neither?

You misunderstood my message. I said that either John OR Fleet OR neither of them committed the murder. I highly doubt they were BOTH involved.