The Whites Party Photos and also When exactly did JBR die??

[sayd]

So I'm sure you die hards will laugh at this. I've never really followed this case. But since the get go, I've always thought it was the son. For one simple reason, it is the ONLY reason why the parents wouldn't eventually rat on the other one. They would unite I think to protect their other child. So without knowing any facts or details, I just think it makes sense. Look at how the parents protected Casey when we all knew she had killed her daughter Caylee. Blood ties are strong...

 

[BOESP]

The 11 PM - 1 AM time of death seems to point towards a family member. My guess is, that something happened before JonBenet went to bed or she got up after being put to bed.

My guess is midnight. Just so some of the posters here (not you) will know that it is a conclusion based on studying this case and not a feeling (are you listening Chrishope ), here's what I used to come to my best guess conclusion.

1. Midnight falls within the scientifically developed time frame based on digestion.

2. Patsy stated she usually got JonBenet up at midnight to potty (but said she didn't on the night JonBenet died; maybe she lied? maybe JonBenet was already dead by midnight?).

3. That Patsy stated she always turned on a nightlight and left JonBenet's door cracked so Patsy could hear JonBenet if she needed anything (but she didn't hear a thing that night; maybe she lied?)

4. That Patsy and John stated they got home 9-9:30 (depends on which version and from which participant you believe was accurate) then gave a list of things they did that imo would have put them in bed no earlier than 10:30 (and probably, for Patsy, no earlier than 11 PM).

5. That JonBenet would have never gone downstairs by herself at night and that she would have screamed bloody murder if some stranger tried to force her to do so.

6. And as DeeDee pointed out above, Melody Stanton reported hearing a scream around midnight.

 

[BOESP]

So I'm sure you die hards will laugh at this. I've never really followed this case. But since the get go, I've always thought it was the son. For one simple reason, it is the ONLY reason why the parents wouldn't eventually rat on the other one. They would unite I think to protect their other child. So without knowing any facts or details, I just think it makes sense. Look at how the parents protected Casey when we all knew she had killed her daughter Caylee. Blood ties are strong...

BBM:
I totally agree but it irritates me for two reasons. I see a failure to teach responsibility for one's actions as a major reason our world is as corrupt as it is. It is like the defense attorney who isn't interested in justice but in getting the client off as easily as possible. And, to me, there should be as much loyalty to JonBenet as to Burke.

If it was accidental, fine, then I can see supporting Burke but if that's what happened I can't find any excuse for the Ramseys not calling 911 to do whatever they could for JonBenet. The Ramseys were not medical people and they would have had the option to call for help. Not calling 911 makes it look like (to me) they were willing to sacrifice the newly "imperfect" child for the one that was left. That idea seems unjust to me.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

My guess is midnight. Just so some of the posters here (not you) will know that it is a conclusion based on studying this case and not a feeling (are you listening Chrishope ), here's what I used to come to my best guess conclusion.

1. Midnight falls within the scientifically developed time frame based on digestion.

2. Patsy stated she usually got JonBenet up at midnight to potty (but said she didn't on the night JonBenet died; maybe she lied? maybe JonBenet was already dead by midnight?).

3. That Patsy stated she always turned on a nightlight and left JonBenet's door cracked so Patsy could hear JonBenet if she needed anything (but she didn't hear a thing that night; maybe she lied?)

4. That Patsy and John stated they got home 9-9:30 (depends on which version and from which participant you believe was accurate) then gave a list of things they did that imo would have put them in bed no earlier than 10:30 (and probably, for Patsy, no earlier than 11 PM).

5. That JonBenet would have never gone downstairs by herself at night and that she would have screamed bloody murder if some stranger tried to force her to do so.

6. And as DeeDee pointed out above, Melody Stanton reported hearing a scream around midnight.

But didn't the head bash happen X amount of minutes before JonBenet actually passed away? So when you say midnight, do you mean that's the time JonBenet actually died, or when JonBenet was first struck?

 

[UKGuy]

Actually, UKG, I think the BDI theory limped in over most of the years at fourth place, behind PDI, JDI, and IDI. Believe it or not, there were more people who argued for IDI than there were who felt BDI. Or perhaps it was that the BDI folk were simply shamed into silence. Kolar has certainly added more merit to the theory by telling us things that were not known previously, but you still see posters who are reluctant to even acknowledge it as a possibility and try to stifle any discussion of it.


I wouldn't count on these pictures being any kind of smoking gun simply because they have been withheld from the public. They are simply part of the evidence that was gathered in police custody that they don't release to the public. While much of the pictures we do have was also in their custody, they didn't release them. They were simply leaked. These weren't. I don't think it's anything any more sinister than that.

otg,
Maybe, but in a case of this magnitude nothing is simple. The big clue lies in the lack of Ramsey video or photographs from Christmas morning. My basic RDI infers from this who did what.

.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

otg,
Maybe, but in a case of this magnitude nothing is simple. The big clue lies in the lack of Ramsey video or photographs from Christmas morning. My basic RDI infers from this who did what.

.

Sorry, I don't so. I have some years where I have video of everything and some where I have 5 pics. It just depends on the day, if things are charged, if the kids are in the mood for pics.. Whatever. Not having pics is not a flag, it just is what it is.

 

[BOESP]

But didn't the head bash happen X amount of minutes before JonBenet actually passed away? So when you say midnight, do you mean that's the time JonBenet actually died, or when JonBenet was first struck?

My understanding is the time frame between the skull fracture and the ligature strangulation is several minutes to two hours. Then there are some, like Dr. Cyril Wecht who, iirc, believe the strangulation came first.

When I say midnight, I think that's when the event that caused the skull fracture happened. I think she likely appeared dead or at least no pulse was found and she probably had shallow breathing and may have even started to appear cyanotic. All my speculation of course.

 

[UKGuy]

Sorry, I don't so. I have some years where I have video of everything and some where I have 5 pics. It just depends on the day, if things are charged, if the kids are in the mood for pics.. Whatever. Not having pics is not a flag, it just is what it is.

ScarlettScarpetta,
It works both ways. No pics , no videos, particularly on Christmas Day is a big red flag.

There was something about JonBenet recorded in both the latter images and those at the White's party which demonstrated something that was inconsistent with the R's version of events.

Sadly your personal experience i.e. your videos and pics, have no direct impact on the JonBenet case which predated your experience of Christmas day.

it just is what it is.

Precisely, a red flag.

I have itemised this in my basic RDI theory.




.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

ScarlettScarpetta,
It works both ways. No pics , no videos, particularly on Christmas Day is a big red flag.

There was something about JonBenet recorded in both the latter images and those at the White's party which demonstrated something that was inconsistent with the R's version of events.

Sadly your personal experience i.e. your videos and pics, have no direct impact on the JonBenet case which predated your experience of Christmas day.


Precisely, a red flag.

I have itemised this in my basic RDI theory.




.

No it is not. I have tons of holidays with no pictures. You have no idea why that holiday there were not pictures. It was not like today where people took pics of everything on their phones. There were no cell phones with cameras then. You had to get a camera and take a pic, and a video camera. Them not taking pictures Christmas morning can mean that they all just had a good time and did not think of it. As has happened many many times in our house.

Do you have pictures of every Christmas you ever had?? I don't.

 

[BOESP]

Well, all I can say is Patsy stated they always took videos and photographs but that year there was no film. I forget what all excuses they gave for after 18 years forgetting to prepare for something they said they had done every other year.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Well, all I can say is Patsy stated they always took videos and photographs but that year there was no film. I forget what all excuses they gave for after 18 years forgetting to prepare for something they said they had done every other year.

I don't see anything sinister in this. I just don't. I have years where I put the camera out and just forget. Years there are no batteries in the camera.

This is just not a big deal.

What is the reason? They were planning it all day? And thought they should not take pics?

It makes more sense for them to take MORE pics and make it look lovey dovey than it does for them not to take any.

 

[UKGuy]

No it is not. I have tons of holidays with no pictures. You have no idea why that holiday there were not pictures. It was not like today where people took pics of everything on their phones. There were no cell phones with cameras then. You had to get a camera and take a pic, and a video camera. Them not taking pictures Christmas morning can mean that they all just had a good time and did not think of it. As has happened many many times in our house.

Do you have pictures of every Christmas you ever had?? I don't.

<modsnip>
The day we are interested in is 12/25/1996 and photographs and videos are absent.

<modsnip?



.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Yes and the fact that they are absent does not work against them. All you are doing is speculating it means something when it just doesn't.

So what, Anticipating killing their child they did not take picture so there would be no evidence? There was something horrible that happened that Christmas morning? Because JB was alive and well that night.

I don't see any huge revelation about not having pics that day. ESPECIALLY in 1996.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes and the fact that they are absent does not work against them. All you are doing is speculating it means something when it just doesn't.

So what, Anticipating killing their child they did not take picture so there would be no evidence? There was something horrible that happened that Christmas morning? Because JB was alive and well that night.

I don't see any huge revelation about not having pics that day. ESPECIALLY in 1996.

The suspicion is not based on them not taking pictures that Christmas when they did every other year. The suspicion is based on their CLAIMS that they did not take pictures that day when they actually did. I believe they DID take them and possibly someone appears in those photos who denied being there that day. Added to that is the suspicion around JR hiring a lawyer for his ex-wife, who lived in Georgia and is not a suspect. I believe this was done for the express purpose of preventing her from speaking to investigators. She may have been asked whether she had an photographs from that day which may prove her son was with HER that day and not in Boulder with his father.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

If there were other pictures or a video taken that Christmas, and it was deleted, maybe it's because either JonBenet and/or Patsy appear upset on film due to what happened with the My Twinn doll.

Also, there was a new picture of JonBenet that Christmas morning on the cover of a book that came out last year about the case. But weren't we told for years that there were only two pictures of JBR taken that morning? Well, we know that wasn't true now...It's at least three.

 

[questfortrue]

The suspicion is not based on them not taking pictures that Christmas when they did every other year. The suspicion is based on their CLAIMS that they did not take pictures that day when they actually did. I believe they DID take them and possibly someone appears in those photos who denied being there that day. Added to that is the suspicion around JR hiring a lawyer for his ex-wife, who lived in Georgia and is not a suspect. I believe this was done for the express purpose of preventing her from speaking to investigators. She may have been asked whether she had an photographs from that day which may prove her son was with HER that day and not in Boulder with his father.

I was rereading some of the interviews in 1998 between investigators and PR and investigators and JR. One of the items popped out at me. This interview mainly surrounded questions about photos. There were 3 curious questions about photos. Detective H showed a photo to PR and asked her to describe it. It was a photo taken of the kitchen bar. A black and red scarf was on the bar. Then, they discussed other photos and came back to a Christmas photo which we’ve seen of BR and jB in pajamas Christmas morning. It upset PR and they took that photo away. The next showed her a photo of the same breakfast bar scene, slightly altered. In that photo, the scarf was hanging up. Also, it appears a writing pad, such as was used in the RN was on the table. A red object of some sort was underneath the table. Also they focused very heavily on cleaning materials underneath the table in the breakfast bar area, which were not seen in the police taken photo.

She seemed surprised and thought the placement of the cleaning materials was weird; and the detective explained that it was taken on the film from JR’s camera. Sequentially, the scene was the one right before the one of BR and JB Christmas morning. If my thoughts are not askew on this, it tells me that between Christmas morning, when the scarf was hung up, and the successive day when the detectives began shooting photos, the scarf had been moved placed on the breakfast bar.

When JR was questioned about the film, he responded 2 ways, that he was just testing his camera. The other statement from him was that he was just using up film to give to the detectives, Not sure what to make of all of this. Regards the writing pad, shown from the film developed, he explained that he gave the pad to the detectives and that explained it not being in the police photo. All of this may mean nothing, except it sounds like the detectives did possess one roll of film which they developed. moo

 

[BOESP]

I wonder if the scarf in the photo was related to the scarf John Ramsey said he put in the casket with JonBenet? I always thought a scarf was a weird thing to put in a six-year-old's casket.

 

[Chrishope]

BBM:
I totally agree but it irritates me for two reasons. I see a failure to teach responsibility for one's actions as a major reason our world is as corrupt as it is. It is like the defense attorney who isn't interested in justice but in getting the client off as easily as possible. And, to me, there should be as much loyalty to JonBenet as to Burke.

If it was accidental, fine, then I can see supporting Burke but if that's what happened I can't find any excuse for the Ramseys not calling 911 to do whatever they could for JonBenet. The Ramseys were not medical people and they would have had the option to call for help. Not calling 911 makes it look like (to me) they were willing to sacrifice the newly "imperfect" child for the one that was left. That idea seems unjust to me.

Not only unjust (which is important in itself) but unlikely. As you say, they weren't medical people, and the tendency of parents is to hope the medical people can do something to save the child.

 

[Chrishope]

Actually, UKG, I think the BDI theory limped in over most of the years at fourth place, behind PDI, JDI, and IDI. Believe it or not, there were more people who argued for IDI than there were who felt BDI. Or perhaps it was that the BDI folk were simply shamed into silence. Kolar has certainly added more merit to the theory by telling us things that were not known previously, but you still see posters who are reluctant to even acknowledge it as a possibility and try to stifle any discussion of it.


I wouldn't count on these pictures being any kind of smoking gun simply because they have been withheld from the public. They are simply part of the evidence that was gathered in police custody that they don't release to the public. While much of the pictures we do have was also in their custody, they didn't release them. They were simply leaked. These weren't. I don't think it's anything any more sinister than that.

I think that makes sense.

 

[Chrishope]

My guess is midnight. Just so some of the posters here (not you) will know that it is a conclusion based on studying this case and not a feeling (are you listening Chrishope ), here's what I used to come to my best guess conclusion.

1. Midnight falls within the scientifically developed time frame based on digestion.

2. Patsy stated she usually got JonBenet up at midnight to potty (but said she didn't on the night JonBenet died; maybe she lied? maybe JonBenet was already dead by midnight?).

3. That Patsy stated she always turned on a nightlight and left JonBenet's door cracked so Patsy could hear JonBenet if she needed anything (but she didn't hear a thing that night; maybe she lied?)

4. That Patsy and John stated they got home 9-9:30 (depends on which version and from which participant you believe was accurate) then gave a list of things they did that imo would have put them in bed no earlier than 10:30 (and probably, for Patsy, no earlier than 11 PM).

5. That JonBenet would have never gone downstairs by herself at night and that she would have screamed bloody murder if some stranger tried to force her to do so.

6. And as DeeDee pointed out above, Melody Stanton reported hearing a scream around midnight.

I don't have a problem with your analysis. Midnight is fine. For me 11pm to 1am is just fine too. I see no reason to try for pinpoint accuracy when Meyer didn't do the tests that would allow a more accurate TOD to be determined. In fact, 10 to 2 is close enough for me.