JBR: did she sleep that night at all

[JMO8778]

Steve Thomas was interviewed by Crime News website...anyone remember the name?

I participated in the Crime News interview where Steve Thomas was asked if JonBenet wore the White Gap shirt to the Whites.... and Steve replied with a yes.

JonBenet did soil herself Christmas day as evidenced by the soiled pants on her bathroom floor. She got undressed in her bathroom, removing her pants like some kids do...with her feet, hence the inside-out pants.

Let's say that Patsy did not see JonBenet undress...what's a six-year-old to do? Keep her soiled panties on and put on her black velvet pants....

Let's say Patsy saw the soiled panties JonBenet was wearing. She wipes JonBenet down...then places humongous panties on her???? Don't think so.

My belief is that Patsy was not aware JonBenet had soiled herself until she took her to the toilet around midnight. It was then that JonBenet was wiped down.

What makes me believe that it was Patsy is the way in which JonBenet was wiped down. Her labia was wiped down also....and there is no way, no how a MALE would think to do that.

Ok, thx for that info,although it doesn't make sense as to why she had it on,(unless it was under the other one?) I don't know;maybe the red one was put on her b/f bed, if she was going to wear it the next day,just to save some time...it just seems it would be rather uncomfortable to sleep in a turtleneck,as it just takes a minute or so to switch to a shirt.
I found it odd ST omitted which shirt she was strangled with,and the only other shirt mentioned besides the white one was the red one.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm sure,although he didn't mention the pics in the book,I don't think,only that he found out about what PR was wearing from someone else in LE that was there that morning.
The fact that he overlooks mention of the pics makes me think he doesn't want the R's,(or the public?) to know for sure what they show.(since they had already let PR know they knew she had on the same clothes from the previous night?).


IMO...I think JB was strangled with the red shirt.I think that's why PR got so upset when she saw it in the photo.Would she have gotten that upset if it was used just for staging..? I don't know...but I don't think so..mother's instinct here I guess you could say..
ST doesn't directly come out and say this..I think he's holding something back,for good reason.He only says he believes some kind of confrontation occured in the bathroom, that he thinks JB wore the red shirt to bed,as PR originally said,and that it was stripped off when it got wet. ...soooo,the shirt would have been examined for urine,as well as for anything else..like being stretched or twisted,I'm sure.
I believe he's trying to say,without actually saying it ...that PR strangled JB with the red shirt..as she was attempting to take it off... (on purpose though,out of frustration,and not by accident).
Dr Spitz says she was manually strangled by a shirt collar...so unless there's a shirt not talked about ...it couldn't be the white one.(I hope you see what I'm getting at..not sure I'm being clear enough(?) I'm confusing myself somewhat,lol).
My other thought is..were there any other shirts removed in the lists of items taken from the house by LE? ..or possibly PP took something in her raid of the house?? or it was sneaked out,just like the notepad pages were??

could be...but then what was used to strangle her?I think the DR would have been able to tell if it was done just by hand or not.

possibly,yes,could be.

in that case,a very stretched out,twisted shirt would have been put back on her...likely wet w/ urine at that. ..possible,but likely?
I think she was trying to account for it,and for the fact it was stretched and twisted..by saying she and JB got into an argument over it.
I'm not saying youre wrong,I'm not calling ST a liar...it's just that something seems to be missing here...perhaps that's partly why the toilet scenerio doesn't seem to add up all the way???
I still don't discount toilet rage,since he had access to all the evidence..but I can't discount sexual rage either.Weren't JR's shirt fibers matched after ST's book was written? Like DOI,I think this book holds some unspoken clues,due to ST not telling what all evidence there is,with good reason.

One other thought comes to mind ...PR was wearing the same clothes she had on at the party...she called the White's over that morning,most likely knowing LE would find the body while they were there...soo if JB is wearing the same clothes,jewelry(minus the pants),and PR is wearing the same clothes as well...did PR not stop long enough to think how that would appear to the White's? If I went to a friend's house and their child was missing,then later found dead in the same general clothes they'd worn to my party and left in 9-10 hrs earlier...and the mom was also in the same clothes and things she'd worn as well...I'm sure I'd be suspicious ! Did that not likely occur to PR?

JMO8778,

Yes Steve Thomas stated in his book that he looked over the White's photographs and realised Patsy was wearing the same clothes two days in succession!

When JonBenet arrived back home, lets roll with the Ramsey version of events, she had a choice of pijamas, barbie-gown, etc, yet as you suggest of Steve Thomas

he thinks JB wore the red shirt to bed,as PR originally said,and that it was stripped off when it got wet.

So this means someone took off her White Gap Top, and replaced it with a Red Turtleneck, despite gowns and pijamas lying on the bed, which contradicts the original Ramsey version of events!

I'm not saying youre wrong,I'm not calling ST a liar...it's just that something seems to be missing here...perhaps that's partly why the toilet scenerio doesn't seem to add up all the way???

There is something missing, its the forensic evidence removed by JonBenet's killer(s), the temptation is to fill this void with staged evidence, thereby generating a false theory.

Dr Spitz says she was manually strangled by a shirt collar.

Possibly, this seems like a good guess, and one I would accept until it conflicts with any other evidence. The garrote staging suggests this initial strangulation was being masked.

Patsy's Clothes:
Yes what you say I agree with, but like other aspects this suggests her reason for doing so is more important than what the White's think!


.

 

[UKGuy]

I broke down and got Death of Innocence because I wanted to see just what they had to say. So if you read that a woman had a stroke and died while reading the Ramsey's version of events in Death Of Innocence, you'll know it was me. This is not going to be easy reading this. It was not easy watching John on LKL, so this will be even harder.

Solace,

Without an interest in the case details, I reckon it would be a boring read.

Its interesting for the family background and the pictures etc, I dont think it will generate any strokes, more likely empathy, since the book was written to portray the Ramsey's as victims.



.

 

[coloradokares]

I broke down and got Death of Innocence because I wanted to see just what they had to say. So if you read that a woman had a stroke and died while reading the Ramsey's version of events in Death Of Innocence, you'll know it was me. This is not going to be easy reading this. It was not easy watching John on LKL, so this will be even harder.

Perhaps monitor you bloodpressure every few sentences or just put on a auto bloodpressure monitor and put the book down every time you go to the danger zone....Sounds prudent......:dance:

 

[coloradokares]

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing the same white gap shirt she wore to the Whites... ( White's Christmas photos)

FACT: JonBenet had soiled herself Christmas day...(photos of inside out soiled play pants in her bathroom)

FACT: JonBenet ate pineapple hours before her death....(autopsy report)

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing size 12 "Wednesday" panties...(autopsy report)

FACT: JonBenet was found wearing longjohns.

FACT: JonBenet's feet were dirty.

We could argue when JonBenet ate the pineapple...before going to bed or after being awakened by Patsy. But the fact remains that JonBenet did eat pineapple and had a dirty bottom.

Patsy became aware of JonBenet's dirty bottom when she took her to the toilet. It was Patsy who wiped a defiant JonBenet. The ensuing struggle caused Patsy to lose it and it was at that time when she picks up the flashlight and strikes JonBenet.

We could also argue where it occured...the bathroom or the kitchen.

I would really like to see the Whites Christmas photos. I take since your stating this as fact you have seen them?

 

[coloradokares]

Steve Thomas was interviewed by Crime News website...anyone remember the name?

I participated in the Crime News interview where Steve Thomas was asked if JonBenet wore the White Gap shirt to the Whites.... and Steve replied with a yes.

JonBenet did soil herself Christmas day as evidenced by the soiled pants on her bathroom floor. She got undressed in her bathroom, removing her pants like some kids do...with her feet, hence the inside-out pants.

Let's say that Patsy did not see JonBenet undress...what's a six-year-old to do? Keep her soiled panties on and put on her black velvet pants....

Let's say Patsy saw the soiled panties JonBenet was wearing. She wipes JonBenet down...then places humongous panties on her???? Don't think so.

My belief is that Patsy was not aware JonBenet had soiled herself until she took her to the toilet around midnight. It was then that JonBenet was wiped down.

What makes me believe that it was Patsy is the way in which JonBenet was wiped down. Her labia was wiped down also....and there is no way, no how a MALE would think to do that.

Perhaps she did wear the white sequined one to Whites party. then Patsy put the red turtleneck on her to go to bed. After soiling or/and wetting herself Patsy put the white one back on JonBenet..since it was laying there with the little velvet pants....? Perhaps the red turtleneck one was on JonBenet and was the one that got wrenched around her as ST suggested. Perhaps that is why it was washed out and was found soaking wet. Perhaps that was to disquise as much the turtleneck part being twisted all out of shape as much as the fact it'd been wet from the bedwetting as well? Just speculating here.

 

[Solace]

Perhaps monitor you bloodpressure every few sentences or just put on a auto bloodpressure monitor and put the book down every time you go to the danger zone....Sounds prudent......:dance:

TO UK AND COLORADO:

UK, it is a boring read already. I really bought it to see if I could find any discrepancies in any of his or her testimony. But it is like wading through mud, it is that boring.

COLORADO: You make me laugh out loud!

 

[Solace]

I would really like to see the Whites Christmas photos. I take since your stating this as fact you have seen them?

I was just going to say the shirt "thing" is easily solvable by asking the Whites. But it has already been posted that she had a picture taken there with the white shirt on.

I really wish we could get every single word uttered by the White's in their depositions, the later ones, if there are such depos existing.

 

[cami]

I broke down and got Death of Innocence because I wanted to see just what they had to say. So if you read that a woman had a stroke and died while reading the Ramsey's version of events in Death Of Innocence, you'll know it was me. This is not going to be easy reading this. It was not easy watching John on LKL, so this will be even harder.

LOL Solace. I must admit I have never finished reading DOI and their version of events. When I saw how they carefully answered some of the incriminating evidence and/or events of that night, I knew they were lying. But I might pick it up again old buddy and maybe both of us will stroke out on the lies.

 

[JMO8778]

Perhaps monitor you bloodpressure every few sentences or just put on a auto bloodpressure monitor and put the book down every time you go to the danger zone....Sounds prudent......:dance:

LOL good thought
Everytime they referred to Steve Thomas as 'rookie Steve Thomas' ...I just wanted to slap the CRAP out of them !! What a cheap shot ! Even they had to admit he was working hard on the case!
..it's more like ignoramus Lou Smit,or sell-out Lou Smit ...JMO!!!

 

[JMO8778]

Perhaps she did wear the white sequined one to Whites party. then Patsy put the red turtleneck on her to go to bed. After soiling or/and wetting herself Patsy put the white one back on JonBenet..since it was laying there with the little velvet pants....? Perhaps the red turtleneck one was on JonBenet and was the one that got wrenched around her as ST suggested. Perhaps that is why it was washed out and was found soaking wet. Perhaps that was to disquise as much the turtleneck part being twisted all out of shape as much as the fact it'd been wet from the bedwetting as well? Just speculating here.

I think so, too.Plus if it was examined,hopefully there were still traces of urine detected on it,I don't know,but I suspect that's part of the evidence that's being held back.I would also think they could even tell if the material was stretched and twisted. If ST was going make such a bold claim,he'd have to have something to base it on,which I beleive he does.It's just up to the reader to fill in the gaps,IMO.
What confuses me is,PR originally said she washed out a red jumpsuit on the way down the stairs that morning..was there really one,or was she just saying that,as in,if she thought about it later,she could say she was mistaken,that it was really the red shirt? It's been speculated the shirt found outside the room,near a sink.

 

[coloradokares]

LOL good thought
Everytime they referred to Steve Thomas as 'rookie Steve Thomas' ...I just wanted to slap the CRAP out of them !! What a cheap shot ! Even they had to admit he was working hard on the case!
..it's more like ignoramus Lou Smit,or sell-out Lou Smit ...JMO!!!

JMHO I think Lou Smit sold out on their charm and other more influential assets.

 

[coloradokares]

I think so, too.Plus if it was examined,hopefully there were still traces of urine detected on it,I don't know,but I suspect that's part of the evidence that's being held back.I would also think they could even tell if the material was stretched and twisted. If ST was going make such a bold claim,he'd have to have something to base it on,which I beleive he does.It's just up to the reader to fill in the gaps,IMO.
What confuses me is,PR originally said she washed out a red jumpsuit on the way down the stairs that morning..was there really one,or was she just saying that,as in,if she thought about it later,she could say she was mistaken,that it was really the red shirt? It's been speculated the shirt found outside the room,near a sink.

I knew the redshirt had been washed out or laid crumpled and wet as though washed out. The jumper remains a puzzlement.

 

[JMO8778]

re: DOI,there could easily be a whole study group based just on the lies in it! there are just so many they told.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Yes Steve Thomas stated in his book that he looked over the White's photographs and realised Patsy was wearing the same clothes two days in succession!

ok,thx UK,I need to keep my book close by from now on,lol.

When JonBenet arrived back home, lets roll with the Ramsey version of events, she had a choice of pijamas, barbie-gown, etc, yet as you suggest of Steve Thomas
So this means someone took off her White Gap Top, and replaced it with a Red Turtleneck, despite gowns and pijamas lying on the bed, which contradicts the original Ramsey version of events!


There is something missing, its the forensic evidence removed by JonBenet's killer(s), the temptation is to fill this void with staged evidence, thereby generating a false theory.



Possibly, this seems like a good guess, and one I would accept until it conflicts with any other evidence. The garrote staging suggests this initial strangulation was being masked.

good thoughts.

Patsy's Clothes:
Yes what you say I agree with, but like other aspects this suggests her reason for doing so is more important than what the White's think!

sure,fiber evidence,or was she even thinking about that at the time,or was it just lack of time? I also wonder if they changed the story about JB's clothes after it was found PR was wearing the same clothes from the night b/f.

 

[coloradokares]

re: DOI,there could easily be a whole study group based just on the lies in it! there are just so many they told.

Never has a more self serving work been sold .....

 

[Dru]

JMO8778, I never thought about the possibility, as you suggested above, that JBR was dressed in clean clothes and put to bed in them to make the next morning's trip easier--but it makes perfect sense! In one of the interviews I read, JR was all vague about what BR was wearing to bed...some pjs or other, couldn't remember, BR liked to wear them mismatched...JR specifically said that! It struck me as odd. But now that I think about it, there are tons of clothes you can put little kids in to sleep in and then all then need in the morning is a coat and a snack, and out the door you go. A sweatsuit, maybe, or in JBR's case, a turtleneck and loose pants of some kind, or even the turtleneck and the long john bottoms, with some pants nearby to toss on in the morning just in case she has an accident during the night. As for a turtleneck being uncomfortable to sleep in, one of my kids wears a turtleneck and sleep bottoms all the time to bed! It's warmer and more comfortable than a pj top to her--no buttons to roll over on, for instance.

But if the kids were dressed the night before for their trip the next morning, then JBR would have to have been awake. I've slipped a nightgown on a sleeping child before, but there's no way that works with a turtleneck. And if the turtleneck was used in the initial stragulation (followed by the head blow, IMO, and then up to an hour later by the final strangulation) that makes another reason to remove it. Maybe the intention was to redress her in the Barbie gown, but either rigor had set in or the whole "she was really zonked" story had been thought out, which made the top she was wearing the night before a better choice from a staging perspective.

 

[UKGuy]

JMO8778, I never thought about the possibility, as you suggested above, that JBR was dressed in clean clothes and put to bed in them to make the next morning's trip easier--but it makes perfect sense! In one of the interviews I read, JR was all vague about what BR was wearing to bed...some pjs or other, couldn't remember, BR liked to wear them mismatched...JR specifically said that! It struck me as odd. But now that I think about it, there are tons of clothes you can put little kids in to sleep in and then all then need in the morning is a coat and a snack, and out the door you go. A sweatsuit, maybe, or in JBR's case, a turtleneck and loose pants of some kind, or even the turtleneck and the long john bottoms, with some pants nearby to toss on in the morning just in case she has an accident during the night. As for a turtleneck being uncomfortable to sleep in, one of my kids wears a turtleneck and sleep bottoms all the time to bed! It's warmer and more comfortable than a pj top to her--no buttons to roll over on, for instance.

But if the kids were dressed the night before for their trip the next morning, then JBR would have to have been awake. I've slipped a nightgown on a sleeping child before, but there's no way that works with a turtleneck. And if the turtleneck was used in the initial stragulation (followed by the head blow, IMO, and then up to an hour later by the final strangulation) that makes another reason to remove it. Maybe the intention was to redress her in the Barbie gown, but either rigor had set in or the whole "she was really zonked" story had been thought out, which made the top she was wearing the night before a better choice from a staging perspective.

Dru,

Dr Spitz says she was manually strangled by a shirt collar.

Thats only if Dr Spitz's assumption is correct, we just do not know how she was asphyxiated, except that her injuries reflect that of a manual strangulation.

This is not a new topic, BlueCrab suggested Erotic Asphyxiation (EA), was the cause of both her neck injuries and a motive for her sexual assault, which is a variation on Lou Smits pedophile intruder theory. But the forensic evidence demonstrates this to be invalid. For a long time people thought this made perfect sense since it also linked the Stines and Burke Ramsey hence the BDI.

It appears that the Red Turtleneck has played a role in JonBenet's death, whether it is direct as in aiding her asphyxiation or indirect as in being part of a prior staging is an open question?

The smart answer may be yes to both, since Red Turtleneck was later removed and replaced with the White Gap Top?

But it does not seem to fit into any Toilet Rage theory due to her urine-soaked longjohns and her soiled pants left lying on the bathroom floor, simply being ignored?

Speculating, since we can infer Patsy washed out items containing forensic evidence, I wonder if JonBenet was wearing the red jumpsuit that was washed out that morning, can a jumpsuit be twisted to asphyxiate?



.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778, I never thought about the possibility, as you suggested above, that JBR was dressed in clean clothes and put to bed in them to make the next morning's trip easier--but it makes perfect sense! In one of the interviews I read, JR was all vague about what BR was wearing to bed...some pjs or other, couldn't remember, BR liked to wear them mismatched...JR specifically said that! It struck me as odd. But now that I think about it, there are tons of clothes you can put little kids in to sleep in and then all then need in the morning is a coat and a snack, and out the door you go. A sweatsuit, maybe, or in JBR's case, a turtleneck and loose pants of some kind, or even the turtleneck and the long john bottoms, with some pants nearby to toss on in the morning just in case she has an accident during the night. As for a turtleneck being uncomfortable to sleep in, one of my kids wears a turtleneck and sleep bottoms all the time to bed! It's warmer and more comfortable than a pj top to her--no buttons to roll over on, for instance.

But if the kids were dressed the night before for their trip the next morning, then JBR would have to have been awake. I've slipped a nightgown on a sleeping child before, but there's no way that works with a turtleneck. And if the turtleneck was used in the initial stragulation (followed by the head blow, IMO, and then up to an hour later by the final strangulation) that makes another reason to remove it. Maybe the intention was to redress her in the Barbie gown, but either rigor had set in or the whole "she was really zonked" story had been thought out, which made the top she was wearing the night before a better choice from a staging perspective.

good thoughts!
BR was in his PJ's that morning,per JR,but since he was old enough to dress himself more quickly,I can understand that.

 

[JMO8778]

Dru,


Thats only if Dr Spitz's assumption is correct, we just do not know how she was asphyxiated, except that her injuries reflect that of a manual strangulation.

This is not a new topic, BlueCrab suggested Erotic Asphyxiation (EA), was the cause of both her neck injuries and a motive for her sexual assault, which is a variation on Lou Smits pedophile intruder theory. But the forensic evidence demonstrates this to be invalid. For a long time people thought this made perfect sense since it also linked the Stines and Burke Ramsey hence the BDI.

It appears that the Red Turtleneck has played a role in JonBenet's death, whether it is direct as in aiding her asphyxiation or indirect as in being part of a prior staging is an open question?

The smart answer may be yes to both, since Red Turtleneck was later removed and replaced with the White Gap Top?

But it does not seem to fit into any Toilet Rage theory due to her urine-soaked longjohns and her soiled pants left lying on the bathroom floor, simply being ignored?

Speculating, since we can infer Patsy washed out items containing forensic evidence, I wonder if JonBenet was wearing the red jumpsuit that was washed out that morning, can a jumpsuit be twisted to asphyxiate?



.

that's a good thought,(I would think so,since theyre one piece outfits with pants attached) and it led me to another...since one of the examiners said he thought the abrasions came from the 'snaps' on a piece of clothing,is it possible they came from the type on a jumpsuit?
In PMPT,JB is wearing a little denim set in the the yard when she is talking to the gardener..that's the type I mean.It has snaps in several places,esp. the top,where the hooks attach to the snaps at the shoulders,and possibly on the sides too? JAT..any thoughts?? one of the examiners said one of the abrasions had a boat shape in it...is there possibly a manufacturer that has a boat shape on their snaps??
the R's also had a boat,(maybe that's irrelevant),but maybe it was a little outfit with a boating theme on it, to wear when on a boat?
The R's also had plans to go on Disney's Big Red Boat..perhaps there was a special outfit bought just for that??