Burke did NOT kill JonBenet

[Ponytale]

If Burke accidentally inflicted the fatal head blow on JonBenet's head, I can see why John would do a cover up so John's previous SA of JonBenet did not come to light. But why would Patsy go along with a cover up to protect John from being arrested for molesting JonBenet? It's not like Patsy had to worry about Burke being arrested. What would be Patsy's motive?

One possibility is reputation and social status. Would you see Patsy as a woman who would bare to live with a title of a "bad parent", "mother of a son who killed his sister" or "a wife of a father who molested his daughter"? Her social status and circle was very important for her.

 

[gumshoe1]

One possibility is reputation and social status. Would you see Patsy as a woman who would bare to live with a title of a "bad parent", "mother of a son who killed his sister" or "a wife of a father who molested his daughter"? Her social status and circle was very important for her.

Yeah I can see how that would stigmatize her a little bit, even though it would be far more John's shame than Patsy's. Isn't staging a cover up with a ransom note like that a little bit drastic just to avoid a little stigma?

 

[Ponytale]

So you're suggesting the medical examiner added that it could be pajama material but that ended up being snipped from the autopsy summary?

No.
All I suggest is that the medical examiner too did not have a chance to know what else it could be. He referred to it to be "Small dark blue fibers, consistent with a cotton towel" only because that is what he thought them most liklely to be. It was never proven as a fact, as no towel of that kind was ever found from the scene, and nothing was 100% matched to those fibers.
He too was not able to see the test result from Burkes PJ's because they were never tested.

I suggest to stay open minded, if something is not yet proven to be false.

 

[Swirlz]

I'm sticking with that the Medical Examiner can tell what cotton towel material is. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Ponytale]

Yeah I can see how that would stigmatize her a little bit, even though it would be far more John's shame than Patsy's. Isn't staging a cover up with a ransom note like that a little bit drastic just to avoid a little stigma?

Of course, but what did they have to lose after that anyway. They had the money and power to go along with it, possibly even getting help or guidance via phone calls made that night, and hope it all plays in their favor. And it did.
And, IMO, the ransom note has Patsy written all over it.

 

[Ponytale]

I'm sticking with that the Medical Examiner can tell what cotton towel material is. We can agree to disagree.

Let's agree to disagree, I'm not here to convince anyone to change their minds.

But I like to stay open minded to possibilities that are not proven to be false and, IMO, a fiber from dark blue cotton pajamas could also appear consistent with one from a cotton towel. Especially if no microscopic or chemical analysis (composition) of the material is not available for us to read. "Consistent with” does not mean it definitely came from a towel - it just resembles one. Why the coroner resembled the found dark blue fibers to the "towel", we do not know. Fibers from cotton pajamas could also look like towel fibers, especially if similar in construction and dye.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Yeah I can see how that would stigmatize her a little bit, even though it would be far more John's shame than Patsy's. Isn't staging a cover up with a ransom note like that a little bit drastic just to avoid a little stigma?

If JR was found to have been molesting his daughter, it would not just be the social stigma to worry about.

In addition to being the CEO of Access Graphics which was owned at the time by Lockheed Martin, meaning that he also an officer in LM. He was the sole breadwinner of the family. PR had just gone through extensive cancer treatment, some of which was experimental. She was covered under JR's insurance and we do not know how much of her treatment may have been out of pocket. She had to travel to Baltimore for her chemotherapy.

If JR were to lose his job which would have been very likely under the circumstances, and be subject to legal consequences for his actions, the financial situation would be at risk. Probably the medical / health insurance as well. LM was already pursuing selling off AG. A scandal involving the SA of one of their officer's daughters would be a huge concern to them which could potentially not only derail a sale but also affect negotiations ($$$$) as details became public.

 

[gumshoe1]

If JR was found to have been molesting his daughter, it would not just be the social stigma to worry about.

In addition to being the CEO of Access Graphics which was owned at the time by Lockheed Martin, meaning that he also an officer in LM. He was the sole breadwinner of the family. PR had just gone through extensive cancer treatment, some of which was experimental. She was covered under JR's insurance and we do not know how much of her treatment may have been out of pocket. She had to travel to Baltimore for her chemotherapy.

If JR were to lose his job which would have been very likely under the circumstances, and be subject to legal consequences for his actions, the financial situation would be at risk. Probably the medical / health insurance as well. LM was already pursuing selling off AG. A scandal involving the SA of one of their officer's daughters would be a huge concern to them which could potentially not only derail a sale but also affect negotiations ($$$$) as details became public.

Patsy and John were multimillionaires. They had joint assets. If they divorced, Patsy would be entitled to alimony. I don't think money was a motive for Patsy to side with John.

 

[Swirlz]

Let's agree to disagree, I'm not here to convince anyone to change their minds.

But I like to stay open minded to possibilities that are not proven to be false and, IMO, a fiber from dark blue cotton pajamas could also appear consistent with one from a cotton towel. Especially if no microscopic or chemical analysis (composition) of the material is not available for us to read. "Consistent with” does not mean it definitely came from a towel - it just resembles one. Why the coroner resembled the found dark blue fibers to the "towel", we do not know. Fibers from cotton pajamas could also look like towel fibers, especially if similar in construction and dye.

O.k., but just to clarify, to get to the theory that Burke is responsible for SA, we have to in addition to drawing the conclusion the Medical Examiner can't tell the difference between towel vs. pajama material, we also have to believe the area was wiped with Burke's pajamas since it was the fibers that were believed to be towel material that it was believed were used to wipe the area. Either that or we have to believe the Medical Examiner couldn't tell which material the fibers that were shed from wiping the area came from.

 

[Ponytale]

O.k., but just to clarify, to get to the theory that Burke is responsible for SA, we have to in addition to drawing the conclusion the Medical Examiner can't tell the difference between towel vs. pajama material, we also have to believe the area was wiped with Burke's pajamas since it was the fibers that were believed to be towel material that it was believed were used to wipe the area. Either that or we have to believe the Medical Examiner couldn't tell which material the fibers that were shed from wiping the area came from.

Again, since the medical examiner did not have the PJ's nor the towel to prove or rule out one of them to be the source of the fibers, we can not know anything as a fact.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Let's agree to disagree, I'm not here to convince anyone to change their minds.

But I like to stay open minded to possibilities that are not proven to be false and, IMO, a fiber from dark blue cotton pajamas could also appear consistent with one from a cotton towel. Especially if no microscopic or chemical analysis (composition) of the material is not available for us to read. "Consistent with” does not mean it definitely came from a towel - it just resembles one. Why the coroner resembled the found dark blue fibers to the "towel", we do not know. Fibers from cotton pajamas could also look like towel fibers, especially if similar in construction and dye.

I think it's important to note that the blue fibers that were found to be "consistent with cotton towel material" were not the only fibers found. We also know that JB was allegedly wiped down with something and that the item in question was never found.

According to Dr. Henry Lee's notes on the fiber evidence collected, he noted black cotton, blue and brown, and black wool along with "other" wool. These were from the thigh swabs. Black and blue cotton were found in the pubic region, also noted black, blue and brown fibers. And red polyester (I think that's the word he wrote, it starts with "p o l y e" and the last bit is hard to read).

I would say from looking at the picture of the PJ's that BR was wearing on Christmas morning (12/25), I would describe that blue color more as "royal blue" as opposed to dark. Police described some fibers (as reported by the Daily Camera) as "Navy blue pilings or fuzz balls". The color was a closer match to JR's robe which was found on the floor of his office. However that was apparently ruled out as the source.

It is certainly of interest that BR's PJ's were apparently never found and turned over to police. That was not the only article of Ramsey clothing that went "missing". And the Ramseys never actually accepted the findings of the autopsy report. JR's reaction to it being pointed out in court by Bruce Levin that fibers found on the body were a match to the Israeli shirt he was wearing the night of the murder are particularly telling IMO.

 

[erratum]

drawing the conclusion the Medical Examiner can't tell the difference between towel vs. pajama material, we also have to believe the area was wiped with Burke's pajamas since it was the fibers that were believed to be towel material that it was believed were used to wipe the area.

I don't get why this is so far-fetched, as material can be used for more than one purpose. The medical examiner did not have the towel, nor did they have the pajamas. Terrycloth is a common material used for both, so if all they have are fibers, how could one possibly know from what that material was sewn into?

 

[Ponytale]

I think it's important to note that the blue fibers that were found to be "consistent with cotton towel material" were not the only fibers found. We also know that JB was allegedly wiped down with something and that the item in question was never found.

According to Dr. Henry Lee's notes on the fiber evidence collected, he noted black cotton, blue and brown, and black wool along with "other" wool. These were from the thigh swabs. Black and blue cotton were found in the pubic region, also noted black, blue and brown fibers. And red polyester (I think that's the word he wrote, it starts with "p o l y e" and the last bit is hard to read).

I would say from looking at the picture of the PJ's that BR was wearing on Christmas morning (12/25), I would describe that blue color more as "royal blue" as opposed to dark. Police described some fibers (as reported by the Daily Camera) as "Navy blue pilings or fuzz balls". The color was a closer match to JR's robe which was found on the floor of his office. However that was apparently ruled out as the source.

It is certainly of interest that BR's PJ's were apparently never found and turned over to police. That was not the only article of Ramsey clothing that went "missing". And the Ramseys never actually accepted the findings of the autopsy report. JR's reaction to it being pointed out in court by Bruce Levin that fibers found on the body were a match to the Israeli shirt he was wearing the night of the murder are particularly telling IMO.

And from the Bonita papers:
"a white fiber was found on her chin; dark colored hairs were found on the shoulder area of the shirt; dark blue fibers were located on the back of the right shoulder of the shirt."
"After removing the ring, more fibers were found underneath the ring, and additional fibers and trace evidence were recovered from the left hand."

I still believe that the color is a question of interpretation, as we do not know the exact dye used.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Patsy and John were multimillionaires. They had joint assets. If they divorced, Patsy would be entitled to alimony. I don't think money was a motive for Patsy to side with John.

Actually, specific details about the Ramsey assets and how they were held / owned were not fully disclosed publicly. There may have been some assets that were jointly owned, however it is my understanding that most were primarily in John Ramsey's name.

Their finances took a significant hit as a result of the murder. No one wanted to hire JR and they had to sell off a lot of those assets. This was as a result of the cloud of suspicion about what had happened. It may very well have been worse if JR was legally branded as a SA, which would also have required him registering officially as an offender. That follows you everywhere and forever. The house alone, which had been bought for $500,000 in 1991 and to which they spent a small fortune remodeling, they ended up having to sell to a group of friends / investors for only $650,000 8 years later because they needed the cash.

IMO there was a lot at stake which they both recognized and thus landed on the same page to protect.

 

[Swirlz]

O.k. just putting this here for people wandering into the conversations:

From the autopsy summary: "Small dark blue fibers, consistent with a cotton towel, were recovered from the vaginal area."

So, to get to the Burke theory, we need to:

A) believe the medical examiner is mistaken

B) believe John Ramsey found his daughter unconscious and then proceeded to wipe blood out of her vagina and off of her external labia in order to protect Burke

C) he also used something other than the material believed to be consistent with a cotton towel or else he took Burke's pajamas off of Burke and used them

 

[CloudedTruth]

Here's a picture of the PJ's BR was wearing on Christmas morning.

 

[Ponytale]

Yes, but the photo seems to be taken with the flash as can be seen from the reflections at the Christmas ornaments and the "harsh" lighting on the subjects. It may alter the true color. All we can say from the photo that the color is rather dark than light. The exact shade (dye) remains unknown and can be interpreted in many ways. To some it may be dark blue, to some navy or royal. All could be right. When looking at the color wheel for the different shades of blue, it can be classified as a "dark blue".

 

[CloudedTruth]

Navy blue is typically described as a darker shade of blue. It has less saturation of blue than lighter blues.

I agree that the shade of blue is open to interpretation, however as can be seen in the picture above, the blue of BR's PJ's is fairly saturated and vibrant. IMO it does not meet the common definition of what would be considered a navy blue. Just my opinion of course.

His PJ's also look to me like perhaps a cotton blend. They do not look "fuzzy" to me.

 

[Swirlz]

I've seen the point that Burke's clothing wasn't collected or tested floating around for years but does anyone have a source? I'm honestly asking, not trying to be difficult.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I've seen the point that Burke's clothing wasn't collected or tested floating around for years but does anyone have a source? I'm honestly asking, not trying to be difficult.

I've come up empty on that, unfortunately.

The only thing I can find is that the PJ's do not seem to be on any of the collected evidence lists. That said, those lists are from 12/26 - 1/30 when the majority of the evidence was collected from the house. We have heard that some subpoenas were never signed by DA Hunter's office, I believe IIRC that included some clothing items in addition to the complete phone records. Pretty sure that included items of clothing that PR wore that night, and a pair of her fur lined boots. She only eventually turned over the jacket she wore that night because they found a picture of her at the party wearing it (she had tried to deny it). She also attempted to say that it really belonged to Priscilla White. I do not know if police asked for BR's PJ's.