The Wine Cellar

[UKGuy]

I think the open doll might show that JB was alive in that WC. Possibly she snuck down there and opened it herself. Patsy, already upset with JB over her for not liking the custom doll and not wanting to wear the matching outfits, loses it and cracks her on the head.

I don't think anyone could mistake a wrapped Barbie for a package of underwear, so why was it unwrapped? Burke wouldn't do it. John wouldn't do it. And why would Patsy do it? If that doll was indeed wrapped and meant for someone else, there is only one person in that house that would have completely opened it. And that person happens to be the one that ended up dead.


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andreww,
JonBenet did not like the basement, too dark and cold I guess? The wine-cellar and its related artifacts is a staged crime-scene intended to deflect any focus away from the primary crime-scene. Probably JonBenet's bedroom, since the breakfast bar was left as it was, i.e. I'm assuming Burke and JonBenet headed upstairs to her bedroom after snacking. Patsy left them to snack and continued with her packing for the next mornings flight.

If that is a barbie doll in the wine-cellar and not some kind of optical illusion, then it is out of place, more so than the barbie night gown!

.

 

[UKGuy]

Call me old fashioned or a nerd or anything else but there is no way I purchase panties for anyone other than my own children. I don't care how special the panties are. Panties are considered intimate apparel and an odd present to give to even a cousin.

The doll in the wine cellar doesn't seem to have enough dimension to be a Barbie doll. She mostly appears to be flat. That would fall in line with Kolar's denying a Barbie doll being in the WC.

My main purpose for relying is that I have not seen Linda7NJ on the forums in a long time. She was posting several times a day on the Michael Brown in Ferguson forum and suddenly stopped about two months ago. I do hope she and her son are alright.

DeDee,
BBM: ITA, also how do you know they will suit the recipients sense of style or fashion? So your millionare relatives mail your daughter underwear for Christmas, that just seems out of place.

I'll bet someone was cross-dressing in the R's household?

Maybe Linda7NJ is having a rest?

.
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[midwest mama]

DeDee,
BBM: ITA, also how do you know they will suit the recipients sense of style or fashion? So your millionare relatives mail your daughter underwear for Christmas, that just seems out of place.

I'll bet someone was cross-dressing in the R's household?

Maybe Linda7NJ is having a rest?

.
.

I have to go along with you guys on the size 12's being bought for a gift for a niece. I never received underwear from any if my several aunts as a Christmas gift and wonder if any of you other ladies did?

Crossdressing? Hmmm....a bit far out. I'm gonna stick to an early thought I had way back that the larger Bloomies were for using over pull-ups when JB was wearing a dress for a public occasion.

 

[DeeDee249]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63662&d=1416210114

DeeDee249.....try looking at the photo qft posted and seeing the bear's foot as laying across the middle of the bttom of the Rapunzel skirt. The golden braid edge of the skirt is running horizontally just over the bear's left foot.

I see the "skirt" under the bear's leg/foot. I just can't identify it as a doll. This article does not look like the skirt of the Barbie Rapunzel doll you posted. The Rapunzel doll has a skirt that is entirely light blue with sparkles, and gold trim at the very bottom. This fabric under the bear's foor is white with a teal blue border and gold braid trim about an inch up from the hem where the two color fabrics join. I am not saying it isn't a doll, I just don't think it is THAT doll because the skirt is so different. And without seeing the rest of the item, it doesn't look like a doll at all. I don't see a head or anything.

 

[questfortrue]

For more miscellaneous information to add to the quandary about the doll in the cellar, there’s also this via KK. A few years prior to the interview with Kolar, one of Tricia’s sources told her about one or more dolls being found in the room with JonBenet. Also . . .

From the October 2013 transcribed exchange between Kolar and Tricia, Kolar did not exactly deny there was a doll in the cellar. Here’s the exact dialogue with Tricia.
Tricia: Chief Kolar do you know what was actually in the cellar in those presents? Was there a doll down there? Do you know any of the contents at all?
Kolar: You know, the presents had been torn open partially, so that someone could see what the packaging was beneath the wrapping. Someone on the Internet had asked me a while ago about a doll, a Barbie doll being found in the cellar as well. I don’t recall ever seeing any photographic evidence of that, and I don’t know that it really has any bearing on the investigation. It’s in the basement and there are toys all over the place. It’s just a matter of speculation, and I don’t think it adds any probative value to whether or not something like that was there or not.

Then, Tricia speaking over Kolar who’s saying something to the effect he doesn’t know if something like that was seen or not.

Agree with Kolar, it is speculative, and perhaps it adds nothing. But one thing unknown by Kolar is that there are a number of doll aficionados in the forum, and based on knowledge of collecting Barbies, that particular doll looked like the Christmas of 1996 collectible. So just for discussion sake, assume for a moment the 1996 collectible Barbie doll was there. (Something was redacted in the list of evidence removed from the WC by the police.) If it had been found upstairs on the bed with Santa Bear and the other doll(s), no one would have any question about it. But taking 3 separate clues here - the doll, the adult Seuss book (which may have been the Seven Lady Godivas), the statement from BK which JB made about the visit from Santa after Christmas and “It was a secret,” - it’s the combination of those clues which may point to something.

If one looks at each clue separately, without any evidence of connection to the crime, any of them could be dismissed. Yet JB was molested, and the question is did someone plan something that night, using an inappropriate book, a visit from Santa with a gift – a new doll? Since JB did not play in the basement, was supposedly fearful of the basement, we could consider it in three RDI ways. (It also fits an IDI scenario if one is inclined in that direction.):

1) The doll was meant for niece Jenny, but found by someone else investigating wrapped presents. Just tossed aside when the large Bloomies were sought.
2) It was given to JB for Christmas, or even earlier in the holiday period, and one of the other kids playing at the house on Christmas Day took it down to the basement (teasing JB). The Rs were questioned about what gifts JB was given though, and it never came up.
3) Someone knew it was to be a gift given to JB in Charlevoix and thought it might be an enticement to lure her to the basement for molestation.

Sadly, any of the above could be true. But it always strikes me that there are so many coincidences in this horrible event, it’s hard not to at least consider some association or links between them. I could be all wrong here, but it just struck me that way. JMHO

 

[Teresa]

Thank you, DeeDee249. This was on the acr web page of suspicious evidence. I can kind of see a doll with a pointy hat, but maybe my eyes deceive me!! I’ve no idea, even if it is a doll, that I would recognize it as a Barbie. (You know how
some people can see unicorns in the cloud formations. And it may mean nada. )

I can see her! The doll face is under a sheer piece of blue fabric. I can make out her eyes, lips and face.

 

[DeDee]

I see the "skirt" under the bear's leg/foot. I just can't identify it as a doll. This article does not look like the skirt of the Barbie Rapunzel doll you posted. The Rapunzel doll has a skirt that is entirely light blue with sparkles, and gold trim at the very bottom. This fabric under the bear's foor is white with a teal blue border and gold braid trim about an inch up from the hem where the two color fabrics join. I am not saying it isn't a doll, I just don't think it is THAT doll because the skirt is so different. And without seeing the rest of the item, it doesn't look like a doll at all. I don't see a head or anything.

In no way trying to be argumentative, to the contrary, this post is meant to be helpful. Perhaps you could try using a magnifying glass or a different computer to view the photo of the bear on the bed with Rapunzel Barbie.

The Rapunzel Barbie doll's skirt portion of the dress is under the bear's foot and it is blue. The gold trim is along the bottom edge; however, in the photo, the bottom edge is folded upward so the gold trim only appears to be an inch above the hemline.

Notice the bear's red sleeve on his left arm. Rapunzel Barbie's right gold loop earring appears to be resting on the red fabric of his sleeve.

Additionally, the gold pointy hat has a sheer blue fabric attached at the tip. That blue sheer fabric is draped over Rapunzel Barbie's face. The white space on her face is her mouth smiling showing her white teeth.

I hope the guidance helps you to see Rapunzel Barbie on the bed with the bear.

 

[UKGuy]

I have to go along with you guys on the size 12's being bought for a gift for a niece. I never received underwear from any if my several aunts as a Christmas gift and wonder if any of you other ladies did?

Crossdressing? Hmmm....a bit far out. I'm gonna stick to an early thought I had way back that the larger Bloomies were for using over pull-ups when JB was wearing a dress for a public occasion.

midwest mama,
If you are with the intended recipient of the gift, say browsing in Bloomingdales, then yes why not purchase a set of size-12's, particularly if the recipient is allowed to select etc?

The idea that any millionare relative of mine thought underwear an appropriate Christmas Gift just might have it returned by mail, with a note saying thank you but no thanks!

Also the size-12's as a Christmas Gift simply does not match Patsy's Nouveau Riche persona, consider her grand gestures in other areas, e.g. schooling, house tours, etc.

If Patsy had said I purchased the barbie doll found in the wine-cellar for my niece, then that sounds fine, but size-12's, nope, its as if Patsy was mailing them because the niece had an empty underwear drawer.

Although cross-dressing is far fetched, you just never know, i.e. if PR went to such lengths with JonBenet and her pageant clothing, maybe she was dysfunctional enough to dress BR in size-12's?

.
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[otg]

I don't know just how much significance it has, but just so everyone is able to see what's being discussed, I added some lines to the photo to show where to look for the doll's face. Her face is within the green circle. There are two thin green lines, one running through her eyes, and one running perpendicularly through the center of her face (mouth, nose). I don't know why, but the face of the doll is a much darker color than the face of the Rapunzel doll. I'll attach both for comparison:

 

[UKGuy]

I don't know just how much significance it has, but just so everyone is able to see what's being discussed, I added some lines to the photo to show where to look for the doll's face. Her face is within the green circle. There are two thin green lines, one running through her eyes, and one running perpendicularly through the center of her face (mouth, nose). I don't know why, but the face of the doll is a much darker color than the face of the Rapunzel doll. I'll attach both for comparison:

otg,
Thanks for the images. I can see something beneath the bear, whether its confirmation bias or not, it roughly matches that of a doll, but hey who knows?

.

 

[UKGuy]

For more miscellaneous information to add to the quandary about the doll in the cellar, there’s also this via KK. A few years prior to the interview with Kolar, one of Tricia’s sources told her about one or more dolls being found in the room with JonBenet. Also . . .

From the October 2013 transcribed exchange between Kolar and Tricia, Kolar did not exactly deny there was a doll in the cellar. Here’s the exact dialogue with Tricia.
Tricia: Chief Kolar do you know what was actually in the cellar in those presents? Was there a doll down there? Do you know any of the contents at all?
Kolar: You know, the presents had been torn open partially, so that someone could see what the packaging was beneath the wrapping. Someone on the Internet had asked me a while ago about a doll, a Barbie doll being found in the cellar as well. I don’t recall ever seeing any photographic evidence of that, and I don’t know that it really has any bearing on the investigation. It’s in the basement and there are toys all over the place. It’s just a matter of speculation, and I don’t think it adds any probative value to whether or not something like that was there or not.

Then, Tricia speaking over Kolar who’s saying something to the effect he doesn’t know if something like that was seen or not.

Agree with Kolar, it is speculative, and perhaps it adds nothing. But one thing unknown by Kolar is that there are a number of doll aficionados in the forum, and based on knowledge of collecting Barbies, that particular doll looked like the Christmas of 1996 collectible. So just for discussion sake, assume for a moment the 1996 collectible Barbie doll was there. (Something was redacted in the list of evidence removed from the WC by the police.) If it had been found upstairs on the bed with Santa Bear and the other doll(s), no one would have any question about it. But taking 3 separate clues here - the doll, the adult Seuss book (which may have been the Seven Lady Godivas), the statement from BK which JB made about the visit from Santa after Christmas and “It was a secret,” - it’s the combination of those clues which may point to something.

If one looks at each clue separately, without any evidence of connection to the crime, any of them could be dismissed. Yet JB was molested, and the question is did someone plan something that night, using an inappropriate book, a visit from Santa with a gift – a new doll? Since JB did not play in the basement, was supposedly fearful of the basement, we could consider it in three RDI ways. (It also fits an IDI scenario if one is inclined in that direction.):

1) The doll was meant for niece Jenny, but found by someone else investigating wrapped presents. Just tossed aside when the large Bloomies were sought.
2) It was given to JB for Christmas, or even earlier in the holiday period, and one of the other kids playing at the house on Christmas Day took it down to the basement (teasing JB). The Rs were questioned about what gifts JB was given though, and it never came up.
3) Someone knew it was to be a gift given to JB in Charlevoix and thought it might be an enticement to lure her to the basement for molestation.

Sadly, any of the above could be true. But it always strikes me that there are so many coincidences in this horrible event, it’s hard not to at least consider some association or links between them. I could be all wrong here, but it just struck me that way. JMHO

questfortrue,
Yes, it might be any combination of the above, including a Secret Santa visit? The latter presupposes planning etc.

It’s just a matter of speculation, and I don’t think it adds any probative value to whether or not something like that was there or not.

A curious aspect to this peice of evidence is that officially it does not exist, not even Kolar recognizes it, and even suggests if it were there then hey, would it make any difference?

The probative value for me would be if Patsy had been asked:

Investigator: Now this doll here in the picture do you recognize it?
Patsy: Oh yes that was a gift I purchased at Bloomingdales along with some underwear for my niece as a Christmas gift.

Alternatively:

Patsy: Oh thats a Christmas gift we purchased for JonBenet, she always gets the latest models etc.

As Kolar suggests either of Patsy's imagined replies might have no probative value, since they represent seasonal behaviour, but in some other scenario, e.g. staging that employs a barbie or secret santa theme, then the dolls presence will have probative value.

Maybe Kolar thinks that the speculation regarding BR the doll and JonBenet's subsequent death are connected and cannot, under any circumstance, acknowledge it?


.

 

[CorallaroC]

http://m.barbiecollector.com/img/c/...e/product_detail_main/products/main/13016.jpg

Not sure if this will copy correctly. Found the Barbie Doll as Rapunzel with issue date of 1.1.1995. Looks very much like image next to the bear, kind of tucked under it's arm and leg.

~~~Wanted to say thanks again to Midwest Mama for her post #206 in this thread & the link she found with a photo of a Rapunzel collector barbie doll. And thanks to each WS'er participating in the discussion and posting magnified pics with hints how to see the doll close to the "santa bear" pictured in crime scene photos of the spare bed in JBR's bedroom.

I hope the discussions and brainstorming continue on this topic - because the barbie doll could possibly turn out to be as significant or more significant than the "mysterious" santa bear ever was. How can we ever forget the big "ta-do" made about the bear after PR told the press she had never seen the bear before and/or had no idea where it came from? Then we learn later, the santa bear was actually a prize JBR had been given at a recent beauty competition. Then sometime later, we learn (through PR's depositions, I believe) that the dark piece of clothing on the spare bed, is the pair of velvet "jeans" JBR had worn to the party on the evening of the 25th. Therefore, IMO it makes logical sense that any item near the jeans, santa bear, on either bed in JBR's bedroom, or especially any toy found in the WC near the body, could potentially provide important clues to the case.

Also, the thing that stands out to me most about the Rapunzel barbie (stock photo, if you will) is the super-shiny platinum-blonde hair, the long silky braid, and the upswept hair on the sides up near the doll's pretty bangs. The style of upswept sides reminded me so much of a few of the last known photos taken of JBR before her death. We have no way of knowing for certain, but if it IS a Rapunzel barbie there with the santa bear on the bed, it's easy to imagine how a doll like that could have been JBR's most favorite doll that Christmas season - but I doubt we will ever know the answer. Likewise, we may never know how JBR truly felt about the the custom-made "Look Alike" doll (which, to my knowledge, no pictures have ever been made public) - was she merely dis-interested in it? or could she have been very upset about it? What about the observation provided by someone (I don't recall who told the story) about seeing JBR crying on the steps (on the 23rd was it?) and saying she didn't feel pretty. So heartbreaking for any little girl to feel less than pretty, and we will never know what caused her to feel that way. In the last known photos, it's apparent that her hair had grown quite a bit since it had been highlighted by the sun - or artificially? - with the arrival of Christmas days and plans to be in Charlevoix the next day, could JBR have been feeling self-conscious or disappointed that her hair was not as perfect as Rapunzel's, for example? Again, we will never know...

My apologies if my post should be in the thread "things haunt me the most about this case" but I decided to put it here, because I have a hunch that the most visible dolls and toys shown in the crime scene photos were likely her true favorites, and therefore very important to the investigation. ALL JMO.

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks for the thumbnails. I can see the face of the doll now. It might be the Rapunzel Barbie or another doll. Either way, it doesn't really add much. It isn't unusual to have a doll on a bed and it doesn't prove she was given that Holiday Barbie as a gift. We know she liked Barbie and likely had several of them. Still doesn't indicate whether the doll in the basement was hers or not or whether she had been given one herself as well as one being bought for Jenny.
I recall several years ago when there was a discussion here about whether there was a doll in the WC. Most people could see the Holiday Barbie there in the corner of the photo. And I recall that Tricia had information from a case "insider" whom she described as a "trusted source" that said there was most definitely a Barbie doll in the wine cellar. Because of the position of that doll in the wine cellar, we just don't know whether it was tossed there while looking for the panties or if it was originally placed in or on the white blanket with JB and tossed aside when JR unwrapped her from the blanket. Two people know if the doll was wrapped up with JB- JR and FW (who was right behind him as he entered the WC).

 

[andreww]

All good speculation but from those crappy photos I can't even say with any certainty that either item is actually the doll in question. Wish we had better photos!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dodie20]

Thanks for the thumbnails. I can see the face of the doll now. It might be the Rapunzel Barbie or another doll. Either way, it doesn't really add much. It isn't unusual to have a doll on a bed and it doesn't prove she was given that Holiday Barbie as a gift. We know she liked Barbie and likely had several of them. Still doesn't indicate whether the doll in the basement was hers or not or whether she had been given one herself as well as one being bought for Jenny.
I recall several years ago when there was a discussion here about whether there was a doll in the WC. Most people could see the Holiday Barbie there in the corner of the photo. And I recall that Tricia had information from a case "insider" whom she described as a "trusted source" that said there was most definitely a Barbie doll in the wine cellar. Because of the position of that doll in the wine cellar, we just don't know whether it was tossed there while looking for the panties or if it was originally placed in or on the white blanket with JB and tossed aside when JR unwrapped her from the blanket. Two people know if the doll was wrapped up with JB- JR and FW (who was right behind him as he entered the WC).

I finally saw the face too, then wondered how I ever missed it! I'm not sure it's the rapunzel either, because her face seems very tanned, the bangs are different and the smile looks a lot bigger, (although that could be caused by a camera flash). Who knows though, maybe JB swapped dolls and their clothes around. I always let my daughters play with their collectible dolls, except for a couple that were just too hard to find. I learned my lesson after letting my youngest play with/destroy her older sister's majorette barbie. I had a heck of a time finding a replacement. moo

 

[dodie20]

Another quirky thing in the search warrant, is the Ransom Note showing being signed off as "SBJC, not SBTC". Would a typo be possible? I think it was JR who once commented that the note might have actually been signed "SBJC". Oh, my goodness...yes, a typo is possible, (I've seen a lot here and there), but that would be a colossal mistake, by any stretch of the imagination. So? was it the letter J instead of a T? I've never been convinced of the 'saved by the cross' theory, because it didn't fit with the tone of the note, IMO. I've leaned more towards something like, 'Single we're Broken, Together we're Complete', and IMO, the J could stand for Joined...so, 'Single we're Broken, Joined we're Complete'. IMO, something like that fits more with the theme of the author imploring JR to join forces. all moo.

 

[Jay78]

Another quirky thing in the search warrant, is the Ransom Note showing being signed off as "SBJC, not SBTC". Would a typo be possible? I think it was JR who once commented that the note might have actually been signed "SBJC". Oh, my goodness...yes, a typo is possible, (I've seen a lot here and there), but that would be a colossal mistake, by any stretch of the imagination. So? was it the letter J instead of a T? I've never been convinced of the 'saved by the cross' theory, because it didn't fit with the tone of the note, IMO. I've leaned more towards something like, 'Single we're Broken, Together we're Complete', and IMO, the J could stand for Joined...so, 'Single we're Broken, Joined we're Complete'. IMO, something like that fits more with the theme of the author imploring JR to join forces. all moo.

I've seen many many photos of the actual ransom note over the years and it looks like a "T" to me.. no tail or anything on the bottom to indicate it was intended to be a "J" IMO. I've wondered since day one what the SBTC was all about... saved by the cross always seemed the best theory presented IMO, due to the fact I believe PR to be the author of the note. I have spent many a day considering these things and more...I've always wondered if PR included that as a "plea" to God or an unconscious reference to the fact that she believed her daughter to be in heaven and at peace, thanks to Jesus... or any of the other million notions I have rolled over in my head regarding this case over the past 18 years. At times I feel empowered that we continue to push for justice for JB; at others, I feel so incredibly frustrated that this case will never be formally prosecuted, the amount of corruption, the incompetence etc.

anyways, that's the end of my rant. sorry folks.

 

[Aynia]

I know this is not a question, it's more of a thought and adds nothing to this "discussion " but:
How did an intruder find the wine cellar? And opened the door with that latch (that's virtually impossible to find if you don't know where it is???! )

 

[Mama2JML]

I know this is not a question, it's more of a thought and adds nothing to this "discussion " but:
How did an intruder find the wine cellar? And opened the door with that latch (that's virtually impossible to find if you don't know where it is???! )

He looked.

 

[BBB167893]

He looked.

But why bother?