Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

[cinny2227]

It is a rumor that has spread through the media. It has not been confirmed by LE, as far as I know.

Let's think about this for a second.

• We are told by some unknown source close to the investigation that duct tape was found wrapped around the skull.

• The duct tape was presumably put there while the child was either alive (to kill her) or soon after death (to stop decompisitional fluids from leaking). Either way, the tape was placed over skin and attached to skin, not bone.

• The ME stresses that the remains are completely skeletonized. No visible soft tissue remains. Presumably, this means no soft tissue on the duct tape as well.

• The soft tissue has a thickness of about 1/2 inch to greater than 1 inch on the skull. If the tissue were gone, the tape would not be attached to the skull and in fact there would be enough slack in the tape to allow the skull to roll out.

IMHO, the bag had tape around it but not the skull. When MR jostled the bag and a skull rolled out, it landed where strands of tape were. CSI takes photos of the scene and the prosecution sees them. Prosecution decides to leak the "information" to add further pressure on the defense.

Thank you for clearing that up. I like the hard core evidence not the rumors and sometimes it is very hard to tell the difference.

 

[cinny2227]

I beg to differ, just because the holder of an opinion thinks it valid does not make it so.
Anyone insulted by my post needs to get over themselves, it was not addressed to anyone in particular. If you think it applies to you, I suggest your opinion is flawed and you know it already.

Maybe SP didn't really kill Lacy and Connor; it was just a tragic accident.

It would do some of you a lot of good if you would simply accept that evil exists and it is manifest in women like KC. Caylee's life was TAKEN from her by her mother.

Suggesting her death was not intentional only serves to exonerate KC evil act.

Innocent parents do not lie to police about things like WHERE THEY WORK when their child is missing. They also don't drive around with the child's dead body in the trunk, duct tape the child's head, dump her in a swamp and go party until someone notices that the child is missing. They also do not sit in jail, facing life in prison over an accident. Her silence should be all you need to know about the accident theory.

I believe everyone has a right to voice their opinion and should not be critized for it or told how foolish they are for having that opinion because it does not coinside with their own

 

[TakeNote]

When the first report of duct tape came out...on one of the shows like NG...they had a Dr. on there that said....soft tissue may not be there....but....flake of skin could be still stuck to the tape....

 

[TakeNote]

I will try and find it....Dr. said some things about it sluffing off??? I will go and look....but what I got from it....that would prove that it was stuck to the skin...face at one point...and if he said if it was still stuck to the hair also....that could prove that it was around the head.....
my opionion....if the rolled out the duct tape and it had her hair still stuck to it....it would show the pattern of being around the skull at one point

 

[mydailyopinions]

I beg to differ, just because the holder of an opinion thinks it valid does not make it so.
Anyone insulted by my post needs to get over themselves, it was not addressed to anyone in particular. If you think it applies to you, I suggest your opinion is flawed and you know it already.

Maybe SP didn't really kill Lacy and Connor; it was just a tragic accident.

It would do some of you a lot of good if you would simply accept that evil exists and it is manifest in women like KC. Caylee's life was TAKEN from her by her mother.

Suggesting her death was not intentional only serves to exonerate KC evil act.

Innocent parents do not lie to police about things like WHERE THEY WORK when their child is missing. They also don't drive around with the child's dead body in the trunk, duct tape the child's head, dump her in a swamp and go party until someone notices that the child is missing. They also do not sit in jail, facing life in prison over an accident. Her silence should be all you need to know about the accident theory.

Conner's little life was taken by his father, whom which I believe has an evil that exist, also innocent fathers don't take their wife and unborn son and dump them in a large body of water and then lie to the authorities, but what do I know?, Its just my opinion.
I understand your point completely, but do think you were really rude at how you worded your point. And I agree that this is what the forum is for, a ton of sleuthers who all come together for a common cause.
Its better to learn to disagree than to suggest that those with different opinions need to just "get over themselves"

 

[kiki the parrot]

KC has reached a key milestone where her family now know that Caylee is dead so there is no longer any handicap preventing her from admitting as much.

KC is at a point where she is risking the family suspect something a lot worse than an accident, that KC murdered Caylee!!! KC is at a point where she can start to lose face with her family, that supported her. What does she do?

Sure, she can hope that CA and the family are 100% bought into the Nanny kidnapping and thus the Nanny murdered Caylee -- however -- she faces a turning point. Does she risk losing family conviction and support at trial?

If KC, at this point in time, does not confess that it was an accident that door is rapidly closing behind her and all that is left is that either the Nanny theory wins the day (SODDI) and she is exonerated or -- she is a murderess!!

If KC possibly could, wouldn't it be best given there is no cause of death for her to simply take the accident route and seek any plea deal -- that door has been opened by some experts -- than gamble it all? LWOP. There is no going back.

What do others think?

(respectfully snipped) Precisely. Which is why I've said all along that if it was LE KC was worried about and were she guilty of something worse than a negligence scenario, she would no doubt have long feigned one.

I doubt they were calls for help. she could have dialed 911 for help.

Since she spent all that evening with the new boyfriend, movie rental, sleep over etc. I think she either intentionally or accidentally OD's Caylee for too many hours and the combination of drugs and heat is too much. sometime afternoon or evening of the 16th is likely when little Caylee passed. I lean towards S Smith motivation in wanting her new boyfriend more than an accident though with her arrogance and thinking she had all under control, an accidental overdose would be likely. Sure seems too much of a cooincidence with the prior computer searches for missing kids, neck breaking etc. She was at least thinking of ways to get rid of her, before the "accident"

(respectfully snipped) Susan S didn't have grandparents essentially raising her children and more than willing to take on that responsibility legally, fulltime...

Excuse me?? I thought this was a forum where we could all express and discuss our opinions without being told by another member that some of our opinions are not valid. Tricia has worked very hard on this forum, and we all have the right to state our opinions without being told they are not valid.

If you disagree with an opinion, that is fine, but don't tell us our opinion is invalid.

Thank you.

In the past month as I have considered what happened on the 16th, I have more or less also come to the conclusion that the calls to GA and CA were to gauge how much time she had to "get out of Dodge." Following discovery of Caylee having accidentally drowned in the swimming pool.

And thank you JWG (at least I feel like someone might be listening or have arrived at a similar theory). There are few here who would even be allowed on a jury, their emotions are (understandably) so overpowering. With a 20 year-old daughter and two year-old granddaughter (among others) of my own, I have a very different reading. Until trial I will not find it possible to altogether rule out negligence followed by a desperate, and poorly staged, cover-up. JMO

I need to look at the ping map, but I have a theory that it was an accidental death ..but on purpose. Perhaps Casey wanted Caylee to drown in the pool but couldn't stand to actually drown her (or thought it would yield to much evidence later on??) So she leaves Caylee in the pool and walks or drives away for a while. If she did, indeed, drown in that pool, I believe Casey knew it and intended it that way.

Well, at least you acknowledge it wasn't necessary to both 'chloroform' her daughter first--BEFORE drowning her too... JMO

:clap::clap:JWG I truly feel that there was NO overdosing or premeditation. Following the supposed big fight with her mother & now faced with this untimely accident to the baby, I can see her thinking "How can this be happening to ME", she interprets everything in how it relates to HER. I feel, like you, that she is GUILTY of her actions in the aftermath of this horrific cover-up of this poor child.

Another ray, another glimmer of light... to think though, I read we could be waiting for the trial until as late as 2010... sigh...

Here's the problem, LE has access to far more evidence than you or me and they don't seem to think it was an 'accident'. Why is this? What piece of evidence do you have that they are missing or misreading? Or, are they just out to 'get' KC? Why would a grand jury indict her for murder if this was all a tragic accident?

I don't claim to know one way or another. Some things I've seem to indicate an accident, others seem to indicate a murder. I try to look at each piece of evidence on it's own. I'm not going to form a 'theory' and then force each piece of evidence to fit my theory...

Following your own logic then, there must then be equal REASON that LE allowed lesser child neglect and/or manslaughter charges...

I agree with you one hundred percent. Is it murder if you discover your child floating in the swimming pool and fail to get her help?

While there is no telling what condition she may have been in when found, it would be failure to render aid. If negligence is culpable, ie gross and flagrant failure to use ordinary care, then she may have been guilty of this too (and even GP's conceivably) although most parents/caregivers are never charged where adults act like mature adults w the courage to report. In any case little Caylee wouldn't have been retrieved 'floating' that afternoon. If more people would take time out from spewing vitriol to read description and statistics re drowning in this thread (Post #166) it actually helps flesh out this theory... JMO

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3073993#post3073993

 

[TakeNote]

I will try and find it....Dr. said some things about it sluffing off??? I will go and look....but what I got from it....that would prove that it was stuck to the skin...face at one point...and if he said if it was still stuck to the hair also....that could prove that it was around the head.....
my opionion....if the rolled out the duct tape and it had her hair still stuck to it....it would show the pattern of being around the skull at one point

Ok I found it....its from NG
GRACE: . joining us out of Miami, is it possible that this much later, Doctor, there is still flesh?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I think what they`re probably referring to is when the body decomposes, the outer layer of skin sloughs off. And I suspect that`s probably what they`re referring to.

GRACE: Is that possible? Is that -- does that sound reasonable to you after six months?

BELL: Yes. I mean, if they found hair -- again, hair is nothing more than appendage of the skin. So there may well be still pieces of skin. Again, it`s the outer layer of skin. It`s not the entire layer of skin.

 

[cinny2227]

I am just trying to figure out what evidence there was on/with the remains that have led them say it was a homicide?

 

[Whisperer]

Hi, Cinny2227, this is my thinking:

When a body is found in a bag that contains a missing child for six months, it would be logical to call "homicide" as the cause

Case Choices:
accident = no report of occurence
suicide = not likely
illness = no, none reported
homicide = conclusion

 

[illinoismom]

I think Caylee was killed, not by accident, on the night/morning of June 15/16. Placed in trunk in the first bag. After two days, fluids leaked from the bag and one the trunk carpet. Casey drives to her parents, backs into garage to clean the mess. She puts poor caylee in the backyard to put her in another bag and duct tapes it shut. She cleans the carpet from the trunk. I'm not sure if the carpet piece is removable but I envision her taking it out and hosing it off in the grass. She uses the shpvel for something, possibly to lift Caylee from the trunk and to the grass. Casey seems too prissy to get too close to a dead body. This all would explain the hits in the backyard. She puts Caylee back in the trunk after cleaning and putting the second bag on and doesn't wait much longer after this to dump her body in the woods.

I like your theory! and IMO the chloroform was used in the clean-up not as the "murder weapon"

 

[Pink Panther]

Ok I found it....its from NG
GRACE: . joining us out of Miami, is it possible that this much later, Doctor, there is still flesh?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I think what they`re probably referring to is when the body decomposes, the outer layer of skin sloughs off. And I suspect that`s probably what they`re referring to.

GRACE: Is that possible? Is that -- does that sound reasonable to you after six months?

BELL: Yes. I mean, if they found hair -- again, hair is nothing more than appendage of the skin. So there may well be still pieces of skin. Again, it`s the outer layer of skin. It`s not the entire layer of skin.

Skin may well have attached itself to the duct tape. It has probably dried up though. Not sure what kind of forensic information that could still provide. Probably equivalent to what the hair would show.

MOO

 

[Pink Panther]

Hi, Cinny2227, this is my thinking:

When a body is found in a bag that contains a missing child for six months, it would be logical to call "homicide" as the cause

Case Choices:
accident = no report of occurence
suicide = not likely
illness = no, none reported
homicide = conclusion

If true, duct tape wrapped around the skull would also provide a strong hint...

 

[Whisperer]

See what I am so freaking confused about and maybe someone can help clear this up b/c right now there is a BIG HOLE for me.

Casey's car started smelling a couple of weeks after SB towed the car to the tow yard. The car was towed on June 30 and had NO SMELL. It was AFTER he got the car there that it began smelling but the smell wasn't bad b/c SB said the smell did not alert him then and that he just ignored the car after that. Fast forward now to July 15th when Cindy and George come to pick the car up. SB takes them to the car and as soon as the door flys open the smell is so bad that SB "remembers" the smell and immediatly knows its death. They then figure out that the source of the smell is the car trunk so they go to open that alll up. NOW this is where my theory where I need help with:

If Caylees body wasn't in the trunk at the time then why was the smell so unberable and why didn't the tow yard guy smell anything when he picked the car up? It was AFTER the car was towed that it began smelling so that is where I am confused. Something is not adding up to me and is making me wonder if this SB guy is in on everything. He says they threw the bag over the fence b/c it contained maggots and stuff. Could it be that they are leaving the part out that Caylees body was also in the bag?

This also makes me wonder that if Caylees body was in the trunk that long that maybe that is WHY the car is still smelling 4 months later.

____________________
I get confused on this point too.

Perhaps, she was stowed in the wheel well. I used to think that till her body was found....then I had to change my theory. I don't know what to think.

This car smelling for 5 months is unusual. There was a stain that was dry. I realize the car was almost airtight and the odor absorbed....maybe it is as simple as that. The food source had to be diminishing because the flies were small....BUT the maggots were still there...ALIVE. They had to be feeding, unless they can feed on each other, but I don't think this species does. She got awfully lucky if she removed the body before the tow company arrived. It appears that she did.

One answer that I need....Is the tow company fenced completely? If not, did she get in? seems unlikely, but this is kc.

You can see...I also am puzzled!

 

[s1rebecca]

Thank you for saying what I have wanted to say for some time. Chloroform is an illegal substance, and Casey had no right giving it to anyone, overdose or not. Putting your baby in a trunk would at best be so no one knows you left your baby in the car. It's not an accident when you know what you are doing is wrong.
Lanie

I agree if Caylee was smaller like an infant and kc layed a chloroform rag in her crib to get her to sleep or slipped some xanax in her baby bottle so she would sleep all night I think people would look at her differently either way if she gave her chloroform she intentionally poisend her. Also what about the duct tape what was that there for so she could not scream when she woke up in the trunk. I had a dream and woke up in a cold sweat I never dream but I was so upset when I woke this morning I almost cried.

 

[kiki the parrot]

It is a rumor that has spread through the media. It has not been confirmed by LE, as far as I know.

Let's think about this for a second.

• We are told by some unknown source close to the investigation that duct tape was found wrapped around the skull.

• The duct tape was presumably put there while the child was either alive (to kill her) or soon after death (to stop decompisitional fluids from leaking). Either way, the tape was placed over skin and attached to skin, not bone.

• The ME stresses that the remains are completely skeletonized. No visible soft tissue remains. Presumably, this means no soft tissue on the duct tape as well.

• The soft tissue has a thickness of about 1/2 inch to greater than 1 inch on the skull. If the tissue were gone, the tape would not be attached to the skull and in fact there would be enough slack in the tape to allow the skull to roll out.

IMHO, the bag had tape around it but not the skull. When MR jostled the bag and a skull rolled out, it landed where strands of tape were. CSI takes photos of the scene and the prosecution sees them. Prosecution decides to leak the "information" to add further pressure on the defense.

(bold mine) I agree duct tape was placed subsequent to death and that it could have been used initially to prevent leakage from bag. But depending upon original placement, there is another possible explanation. It could also have been meant to distance herself and suggest a kidnapping, ie deflect her involvement (including but not limited to negligence scenario). IF scene was contrived to create the impression that Caylee had died not from her mother's neglect but instead a brutal death at the hands of somebody else, she would deliberately try to create such an appearance and just as concluded now by LE and TM, would have chosen a disposal vs burial site. Only the flaw in this desperate cover-up was assuming remains would be discovered sooner, in the condition she left them. So now it is left to LE (and to our imaginations) to piece together and envision exactly what it might have looked like initially--and what evidence was destroyed during those six months beneath water and under the Florida heat. I maintained from early on that KC had likely destroyed the only evidence which might have been capable of later proving the circumstances of her daughter's death. Now, with a staging involved, she appears to have tightened that noose. JMO

 

[wallflower67]

____________________
I get confused on this point too.

Perhaps, she was stowed in the wheel well. I used to think that till her body was found....then I had to change my theory. I don't know what to think.

This car smelling for 5 months is unusual. There was a stain that was dry. I realize the car was almost airtight and the odor absorbed....maybe it is as simple as that. The food source had to be diminishing because the flies were small....BUT the maggots were still there...ALIVE. They had to be feeding, unless they can feed on each other, but I don't think this species does. She got awfully lucky if she removed the body before the tow company arrived. It appears that she did.

One answer that I need....Is the tow company fenced completely? If not, did she get in? seems unlikely, but this is kc.

You can see...I also am puzzled!

The stench of human demposition is incredible. They have had to junk cars that were unable to be sold EVER after a human had decomposed in it. Same with houses. The demp fluid stain would continue to smell.

Here's an example of something that's maybe easier to relate to: A co-worker of mine spilled a jug of milk in the back of her car in June. She immediately used a shop-vac to clean up, and then shampooed the carpet...in detail, meticulusly, under seats, etc. Two days later, the smell was unbearable. She had to take it to a place that specialized in cleaning up after disasters to get it taken care of.

I actually think Caylee was in the car until the 24th. The car probably stunk to high heaven while driving it, but by the 27th, it probably didn't smell too bad for a tow truck driver with a cold. Another couple of weeks with the car shut up in the hot, humid, Florida summer, and the stench became so overwhelming that one could now smell it outside the car.

 

[ziggy]

Hi, Cinny2227, this is my thinking:

When a body is found in a bag that contains a missing child for six months, it would be logical to call "homicide" as the cause

Case Choices:
accident = no report of occurence
suicide = not likely
illness = no, none reported
homicide = conclusion

May I please add to this accident theory - had it been an accident I do not think KC would have gone on her very cavalier party binge. I think she would have covered up the incident, gone with the wacky lies and stories but I think she would have acted more like a grieving parent of a missing girl.

I think she intended to rid herself of the burden, and the freedom she experienced was exactly what she was going for.

She could not simply give Caylee up to CA because she would then be branded a bad mother and have to endure criticism. That would never work in the long run.

She was trying on her newfound freedom for size and liking it.

This blows the accident theory for me.

 

[ibyoungr]

____________________
I get confused on this point too.

Perhaps, she was stowed in the wheel well. I used to think that till her body was found....then I had to change my theory. I don't know what to think.

This car smelling for 5 months is unusual. There was a stain that was dry. I realize the car was almost airtight and the odor absorbed....maybe it is as simple as that. The food source had to be diminishing because the flies were small....BUT the maggots were still there...ALIVE. They had to be feeding, unless they can feed on each other, but I don't think this species does. She got awfully lucky if she removed the body before the tow company arrived. It appears that she did.

One answer that I need....Is the tow company fenced completely? If not, did she get in? seems unlikely, but this is kc.

You can see...I also am puzzled!

In answer to your post and the post that you quoted... There is nothing that says the car "didn't smell" on June 30th when it was towed. Only that the tow truck driver had a cold and did not smell anything. And yes, this kind of odor will outlast the car itself. I left hamburger in the trunk of a car and tried everything to get rid of the smell. (just bad enough it would slightly smell and I would get a "whiff" of it ever so often) Finally, we just got rid of the car. The owner of the tow company stated that it smelled... the documentation does not state WHEN he noticed the smell.

 

[publius]

Following your own logic then, there must then be equal REASON that LE allowed lesser child neglect and/or manslaughter charges...

I'm not following your reasoning here. LE 'allowed' lesser charges? What does that mean? They filed murder charges. If they filed murder charges, but really believed it was (or even could of been) an accident, then that would be horribly unethical. They (at least in this case) don't strike me as the unethical types. But maybe that's just me.

If more people would take time out from spewing vitriol to read description and statistics re drowning in this thread (Post #166) it actually helps flesh out this theory... JMO

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3073993#post3073993

What do drowning statistics have to do with this case or the facts of this case? I see no legit connection (I do see some leaps of logic based on scanty evidence). If she accidently drowned in the pool, LE would not have charged KC with murder. Period. End of story. Again, what evidence do you have that they (LE) do not? Should they take a look at the drowning stats?

 

[Devon]

I'm not following your reasoning here. LE 'allowed' lesser charges? What does that mean? They filed murder charges. If they filed murder charges, but really believed it was (or even could of been) an accident, then that would be horribly unethical. They (at least in this case) don't strike me as the unethical types. But maybe that's just me.

What do drowning statistics have to do with this case or the facts of this case? I see no legit connection (I do see some leaps of logic based on scanty evidence). If she accidently drowned in the pool, LE would not have charged KC with murder. Period. End of story. Again, what evidence do you have that they (LE) do not? Should they take a look at the drowning stats?

KC has been charged on 7 counts:
1) First degree murder
2) Aggravated child abuse
3) Aggravated manslaughter
Plus 4 counts of providing false information to LE

Therefore they have allowed for a conviction on a lesser charge if murder cannot be proven.

Based upon the evidence and facts we have been privy to so far, the 'leaps of logic' you refer to are similarly required to form a conclusion that she is guilty of murder, IMO.