Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #4

[Rumpole]

this isn't where i first heard mention of the diapers/pull-ups but at 1min 50secs they report that investigators were at the house looking for flowered diapers like the ones found w/ caylee's remains. i know, never trust the media, i'm just

http://www.wftv.com/video/18533335/index.html

I've definately come to realise the media read the same docs we do and they make the same mistakes we do. On top of that we all reference each other and so the story grows.

 

[jon_burrows]

I heard two 'medical' talking heads say that Caylee's body would have been skeletonized within ~2-3 weeks given the conditions. She wasn't reported missing for a month. By the time the searchers were on the scene there were only bones left. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it would smell at that point. If the cadaver dogs didn't search close enough to her body and the wind was blowing in another direction, I doubt the dogs would have found her.

I'm 90% sure they would have hit on the body back then. The wind and stuff like that might have made it possible for them to miss but to the jurors it might cause some doubt about the body being there at the time.

I think this is one subject that will be battled by the experts in court. I'm no cadaver dog expert but in the demonstrations that I've seen, the dogs don't just sniff in the air and run over to the spot where the cadaver scent was planted. The demonstration areas are very small and the dogs sniff several areas before they get to the right spot. The dogs are literally right on the spot before they give an alert. The heavily wooded area where Caylee's remains were found is quite large. I can easily see a cadaver dog missing the spot unless he was directed in close proximity to the skeletonized remains. I don't think anyone really knows if a cadaver dog was even remotely close enough to Caylee to alert on a scent.

Any cadaver dog experts on this board? If so, roughly how close do they have to be to smell skeletonized remains? How much does wind direction play in their ability to pick up a scent?

I agree about creating doubt. A shifty defense expert can certainly spin things and confuse a jury. After all, that's Lee's specialty, along with the rest of the scheme team.

 

[BondJamesBond]

at this point... Cindy would not have KNOWN that Caylee was missing

*snipped*

Edited - above refers to Cindy's state of awareness 7/15...

I am so often baffled why this statement flies...given the very explicit & detailed 7/3 epistle in Cindy Anthony's own words...

"July 3

Subject: My Caylee is missing
Current mood: Distraught

“She came into my life unexspectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?”

I understand denial. I'm ok w/ suggesting Cindy was in denial about Caylee being missing 7/15. Cindy was in a state of disbelief. I can't quite buy the assertion that Cindy didn't know Caylee was missing when she penned the above 7/3. Maybe I'm parsing words...but, this is a point for me when I see Caylee losing someone to speak for her in lieu of defending Casey & Cindy. :furious:

 

[Nosey Parker]

Any cadaver dog experts on this board? If so, roughly how close do they have to be to smell skeletonized remains? How much does wind direction play in their ability to pick up a scent?

I agree about creating doubt. A shifty defense expert can certainly spin things and confuse a jury. After all, that's Lee's specialty, along with the rest of the scheme team.

I really don't consider myself an expert, but I do know a little about cadaver dogs. In answer to your question, it really depends on whether the dog is cross-trained for air scenting, ground scenting, etc. That's why Baez has made a motion for all reference to OCSO's cadaver dog and handler training. He would love to create reasonable doubt of their abilities.

Here is a good reference link for anyone that is interested. Sorry, I don't know the neat way to insert a link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9e...ning+cadaver+dogs&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES

Scroll up to Chapter Twelve on Cadaver Dogs

 

[debs]

*snipped*

Edited - above refers to Cindy's state of awareness 7/15...

I am so often baffled why this statement flies...given the very explicit & detailed 7/3 epistle in Cindy Anthony's own words...

"July 3

Subject: My Caylee is missing
Current mood: Distraught

“She came into my life unexspectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?”

I understand denial. I'm ok w/ suggesting Cindy was in denial about Caylee being missing 7/15. Cindy was in a state of disbelief. I can't quite buy the assertion that Cindy didn't know Caylee was missing when she penned the above 7/3. Maybe I'm parsing words...but, this is a point for me when I see Caylee losing someone to speak for her in lieu of defending Casey & Cindy. :furious:

You know what ONE statement by Cindy Anthony that puzzles me? "I already gave you 31 days..."

Gave her? What did she give her that many days to do? Mention that Caylee was missing? Why would Cindy say that she GAVE Casey those days? What did Cindy do 31 days before making this utterance that implies GIVING Casey anything? Opportunity? "Hey mom. Caylee isn't where I left her! Someone took her!!!" Why would Cindy say she GAVE Casey those days to make that statement?

 

[Steely Dan]

I really don't consider myself an expert, but I do know a little about cadaver dogs. In answer to your question, it really depends on whether the dog is cross-trained for air scenting, ground scenting, etc. That's why Baez has made a motion for all reference to OCSO's cadaver dog and handler training. He would love to create reasonable doubt of their abilities.

Here is a good reference link for anyone that is interested. Sorry, I don't know the neat way to insert a link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9e...ning+cadaver+dogs&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES

Scroll down to Chapter Twelve on Cadaver Dogs

Thanks! :thumb:

 

[JWG]

*snipped*

Edited - above refers to Cindy's state of awareness 7/15...

I am so often baffled why this statement flies...given the very explicit & detailed 7/3 epistle in Cindy Anthony's own words...

"July 3

Subject: My Caylee is missing
Current mood: Distraught

“She came into my life unexspectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?”

I understand denial. I'm ok w/ suggesting Cindy was in denial about Caylee being missing 7/15. Cindy was in a state of disbelief. I can't quite buy the assertion that Cindy didn't know Caylee was missing when she penned the above 7/3. Maybe I'm parsing words...but, this is a point for me when I see Caylee losing someone to speak for her in lieu of defending Casey & Cindy. :furious:

I think I am the source of that statement / presumption. What I meant really is that on the 15th, Cindy was not aware a crime had been committed. Regarding her state of mind, she thought Caylee was missing, but with KC. It was not until she found KC without Caylee that the suspicions were aroused.

 

[suepitzl]

No problem with harping. I love music.

The ADD was determined by measuring the composition of the off-gassing from the stain in the trunk. (Hate to speak about Caylee's condition here) The stain was due to fluids leaking from the body through either natural openings (the largest being the mouth) or breaks in the skin. It was probably - but not guaranteed - too early for breaks in the skin to appear. So duct tape over the mouth/nose stood a good chance of stemming most, if not all the flow for a short period of time, this being 24 hours.

The duct tape was not broken, still found over the mouth/nose area

 

[stellasmommyphd]

Maybe she used Xanax, but I think over-the-counter cold medicine is more likely. And I don't think at all that she was leaving her in the car on purpose. On the 16th I think she was trying to get her to take a nap at Lee's. Something about her call with Amy made her want to get back to her parent's and on the computer. In the rush / activity to get back there, she left Caylee in the car and forgot about her.

your theory sounds totally possible :blowkiss:

i guess i have just read all over these forums that people think casey was habitually drugging caylee and this incident was a drugging gone wrong. i even entertained that theory briefly myself, but it doesn't add up. if she was habitually drugging her, what would be the point? i mean, just to get her to nap so she could surf the web...i don't think that's worth habitual drugging :waitasec:

i get why she'd want her to sleep so she could leave her alone and go out to bars and caylee wouldn't wake up and see she was gone (it's terrible, but i do understand the point)--but it doesn't make sense because they didn't live alone! GA and CA would've known the child was being drugged. or if KC left caylee home alone, drugged, there'd be too much chance someone else in the anthony clan would come home and see that she'd left caylee alone, kwim?

i just think the habitual drugging theory doesn't really add up. even the part about caylee sleeping in the middle of a party...my DD would do this, if she was tired enough, and i definitely don't drug her!!!

 

[JWG]

The duct tape was not broken, still found over the mouth/nose area

Hi Sue,

Not sure what you meant by the duct tape not being broken. I don't think I implied that...only referenced the possibility that the skin might be broken...

 

[JWG]

your theory sounds totally possible :blowkiss:

i guess i have just read all over these forums that people think casey was habitually drugging caylee and this incident was a drugging gone wrong. i even entertained that theory briefly myself, but it doesn't add up. if she was habitually drugging her, what would be the point? i mean, just to get her to nap so she could surf the web...i don't think that's worth habitual drugging :waitasec:

i get why she'd want her to sleep so she could leave her alone and go out to bars and caylee wouldn't wake up and see she was gone (it's terrible, but i do understand the point)--but it doesn't make sense because they didn't live alone! GA and CA would've known the child was being drugged. or if KC left caylee home alone, drugged, there'd be too much chance someone else in the anthony clan would come home and see that she'd left caylee alone, kwim?

i just think the habitual drugging theory doesn't really add up. even the part about caylee sleeping in the middle of a party...my DD would do this, if she was tired enough, and i definitely don't drug her!!!

IMHO it would not be habitual, but more of a crutch. Over time, it would be more and more of a crutch.

I think KC discovered the wonders of cold medicine near the end of May when Caylee was sick with a cold (she caught from KC). She was still hanging out with Ricardo then and I think made the cold medicine comment to him about that time. My guess is she tried it once, twice after then when she had trouble getting Caylee to go down for a nap.

 

[Rumpole]

your theory sounds totally possible :blowkiss:

i guess i have just read all over these forums that people think casey was habitually drugging caylee and this incident was a drugging gone wrong. i even entertained that theory briefly myself, but it doesn't add up. if she was habitually drugging her, what would be the point? i mean, just to get her to nap so she could surf the web...i don't think that's worth habitual drugging :waitasec:

i get why she'd want her to sleep so she could leave her alone and go out to bars and caylee wouldn't wake up and see she was gone (it's terrible, but i do understand the point)--but it doesn't make sense because they didn't live alone! GA and CA would've known the child was being drugged. or if KC left caylee home alone, drugged, there'd be too much chance someone else in the anthony clan would come home and see that she'd left caylee alone, kwim?

i just think the habitual drugging theory doesn't really add up. even the part about caylee sleeping in the middle of a party...my DD would do this, if she was tired enough, and i definitely don't drug her!!!

I am a newcomer to incluing use of sedatives on Caylee. Not totally convinced yet. In support of that hypothesis, I think the use of drugs was a relatively new development. KC had been able to use a variety of sitters, but as caylee was getting older and requiring more attention, potenial sitters less available, and the new crowd of friends particularly AL where a child not so welcome. I think there may have been a very recent use or at least an increase in use.

 

[marlap]

I think I am the source of that statement / presumption. What I meant really is that on the 15th, Cindy was not aware a crime had been committed. Regarding her state of mind, she thought Caylee was missing, but with KC. It was not until she found KC without Caylee that the suspicions were aroused.

JWG, I completely agree. Cindy didn't mean missing in a kidnap/criminal sense, she meant missing from my life.

Casey was talking to Cindy almost every day during that month and Casey kept promising to bring Caylee over and finking out.

You know what ONE statement by Cindy Anthony that puzzles me? "I already gave you 31 days..."

Gave her? What did she give her that many days to do? Mention that Caylee was missing? Why would Cindy say that she GAVE Casey those days? What did Cindy do 31 days before making this utterance that implies GIVING Casey anything? Opportunity? "Hey mom. Caylee isn't where I left her! Someone took her!!!" Why would Cindy say she GAVE Casey those days to make that statement?

Debs, I think Cindy meant I gave you 31 days to:
1) be away with Caylee;
2) independent;
3) out from under Cindy's thumb, etc.

I think she means I gave you as in I gave you this much time away before I have to see Caylee.

 

[Steely Dan]

your theory sounds totally possible :blowkiss:

i guess i have just read all over these forums that people think casey was habitually drugging caylee and this incident was a drugging gone wrong. i even entertained that theory briefly myself, but it doesn't add up. if she was habitually drugging her, what would be the point? i mean, just to get her to nap so she could surf the web...i don't think that's worth habitual drugging :waitasec:

i get why she'd want her to sleep so she could leave her alone and go out to bars and caylee wouldn't wake up and see she was gone (it's terrible, but i do understand the point)--but it doesn't make sense because they didn't live alone! GA and CA would've known the child was being drugged. or if KC left caylee home alone, drugged, there'd be too much chance someone else in the anthony clan would come home and see that she'd left caylee alone, kwim?

i just think the habitual drugging theory doesn't really add up. even the part about caylee sleeping in the middle of a party...my DD would do this, if she was tired enough, and i definitely don't drug her!!!

There was a case here in Rochester where a woman who was running a day care center was giving the kids Benadryl every afternoon to keep them sleeping. She was charged and I believe convicted of the crime.

 

[ibyoungr]

*snipped*

Edited - above refers to Cindy's state of awareness 7/15...

I am so often baffled why this statement flies...given the very explicit & detailed 7/3 epistle in Cindy Anthony's own words...

"July 3

Subject: My Caylee is missing
Current mood: Distraught

“She came into my life unexspectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?”

I understand denial. I'm ok w/ suggesting Cindy was in denial about Caylee being missing 7/15. Cindy was in a state of disbelief. I can't quite buy the assertion that Cindy didn't know Caylee was missing when she penned the above 7/3. Maybe I'm parsing words...but, this is a point for me when I see Caylee losing someone to speak for her in lieu of defending Casey & Cindy. :furious:

When I wrote that I amended it in another post later saying that Yes, Cindy did know that Caylee was "missing" from her life.
But at the time of cleaning out the car.... Cindy DID NOT know for certain Caylee was DEAD or that Casey may have killed her. Therefore, I do not believe Cindy cleaned out the car to protect Casey from the LE as Cindy had not yet called the police. As the last docs stated her co-workers told her to call the police and she refused. I do believe she was in a very high state of denial and still is.

 

[ibyoungr]

I think I am the source of that statement / presumption. What I meant really is that on the 15th, Cindy was not aware a crime had been committed. Regarding her state of mind, she thought Caylee was missing, but with KC. It was not until she found KC without Caylee that the suspicions were aroused.

You are correct.. I was referring to your post from the computer forensics thread. I should have written my post as such.. instead of using the words "missing."

 

[ibyoungr]

JWG, I completely agree. Cindy didn't mean missing in a kidnap/criminal sense, she meant missing from my life.

Casey was talking to Cindy almost every day during that month and Casey kept promising to bring Caylee over and finking out.




Debs, I think Cindy meant I gave you 31 days to:
1) be away with Caylee;
2) independent;
3) out from under Cindy's thumb, etc.

I think she means I gave you as in I gave you this much time away before I have to see Caylee.

That is how I took it.. In light of the last document dump, it sounds like during the first week of June, Cindy, Casey and Caylee were to take a trip to bond. Cindy took care of Caylee the entire time and did not get a call from Casey. Casey then took Caylee and Cindy was trying hard to let them have a go on there own. She did call and ask time and time again to see Caylee. I do believe Cindy would have called 911 alot sooner if it wasn't for the pack of lies Casey was telling her and her desire for Casey to "grow up" and start fending for herself. I think the 31 days was a reference to.. "I gave you 31 days to bring Caylee to visit."

 

[gitana1]

How I think Caylee was killed is not a poll option, so I did not vote. I think casey knocked her out with chloroform and then either drowned or suffocated her. Chloroform was a way for casey not to have to watch Caylee struggle, or so she did not have to see Caylee's little, pleading eyes looking at her, as Caylee took her last breaths. casey also did not want a "scene" or a "mess". I think she wanted the quickest death possible with the smallest amount of awareness possible on the part of Caylee. IMO, no matter how she did it, she's an evil monster. Whatever she did most likely took longer than she thought (kids are somewhat resilient, it's not as easy to kill them as one would think, I believe) and she had to work to snuff out the life and light of her baby.

 

[Rumpole]

How I think Caylee was killed is not a poll option, so I did not vote. I think casey knocked her out with chloroform and then either drowned or suffocated her. Chloroform was a way for casey not to have to watch Caylee struggle, or so she did not have to see Caylee's little, pleading eyes looking at her, as Caylee took her last breaths. casey also did not want a "scene" or a "mess". I think she wanted the quickest death possible with the smallest amount of awareness possible on the part of Caylee. IMO, no matter how she did it, she's an evil monster. Whatever she did most likely took longer than she thought (kids are somewhat resilient, it's not as easy to kill them as one would think, I believe) and she had to work to snuff out the life and light of her baby.

Is there really much evidence to say chloroform was involved?
JWG has said that the computer search was only fleeting, I think several items looked up in just a few minutes. No follow up. Nobody in the long list of players ever seen with chloroform that we know. KC never seen with any. No empty bottles found. The forensiics in the trunk are the best indication but not conclusive at all. Does anybody think that KC would make chloroform. I'd be very surprised if she could make coffee and she would still have to buy chemicals and have bottles and equipment. It's just not her.

 

[Never4GetCaylee]

Is there really much evidence to say chloroform was involved? JWG has said that the computer search was only fleeting, I think several items looked up in just a few minutes. No follow up. Nobody in the long list of players ever seen with chloroform that we know. KC never seen with any. No empty bottles found. The forensiics in the trunk are the best indication but not conclusive at all. Does anybody think that KC would make chloroform. I'd be very surprised if she could make coffee and she would still have to buy chemicals and have bottles and equipment. It's just not her.

ITA. I think way too much is being made out of the chloroform. At the most I think maybe someone tried to use it to clean the trunk. Chloroform is a powerful cleaning agent, but I'm not even sure about that. I think it's a possibility if they levels detected are correct.

I still am having a hard time with premeditation. I don't believe KC's intent was to kill Caylee. I do think she caused her death, but it wasn't planned or her intention. I think it happened at the A's home. At the moment, I like the scenario of her leaving a sleeping Caylee in the car and "forgetting" about her. In the very beginning, when I first heard about this case, I thought KC either left Caylee in a car in the heat or Caylee drowned in the pool.