Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #4

[kiki the parrot]

When we look at the crimes that Casey previously committed, I think it paints a dark, predatory picture. She stole from her sick, elderly grandfather. She stole from her best friend. It's absolutely chilling to read the text messages between Casey and Amy after Amy discovered her money was missing. This, to me, is the perfect snapshot of the Casey who appears vs. the Casey who is.

I think it's important to distinguish between violent, versus non-violent, crime. There is an inverted relationship (ie positive association w non-violent crime accompanies a negative association w violent crime and vice versa). There are numerous significant differences between criminal careers of violent and non-violent criminals. Studies support a division of antisocial behavior into violent and non-violent subgroups, with markedly different pathways. (People who commit tax and insurance fraud eg aren't commonly prone to assault or predisposed to become violent offenders.) So because KC was committing non-violent property crimes ie check fraud, stealing (which escalated in the absence of any consequences, and among other compulsive high-risk behaviors like sexing eg) does not mean she's necessarily violent or capable of filicide. There's been nothing in her history to indicate she was ever abusive to Caylee, nor any report of violence by KC. JMO

 

[kiki the parrot]

I personally like bouncing ideas back and forth and going with the "what if's", as it makes you think deeper and have a better understanding. It's not always the "popular" thing to do, but I enjoy playing the devil's advocate as most things are never as simple as it seems.

Well that makes 3 or 4 of us anyway, lol. So let me ask you then... does KC's Diary of Days entry suggest to you too the possibility of something accidental? Notwithstanding a cover-up after the fact, why would anyone who finally has the freedom they've planned or even just dreamed of, who's simply thrown away their child, write about having what was once given being "taken away?" Not the same at all IMO.
:waitasec:

 

[Who_What_When]

Well that makes 3 or 4 of us anyway, lol. So let me ask you then... does KC's Diary of Days entry suggest to you too the possibility of something accidental? Notwithstanding a cover-up after the fact, why would anyone who finally has the freedom they've planned or even just dreamed of, who's simply thrown away their child, write about having what was once given being "taken away?" Not the same at all IMO.
:waitasec:

Sorry for the late response, I just got home! To tell you the truth I never really put much thought into it, but after you posted it and gave your views, I can definetly see what your saying. It seems like it was her way of admitting what she had done and it was an accident. Again, just trying to think outside the box...

 

[Who_What_When]

ITA And who wants to be popular?? I love people who express their opinions with passion & feeling for all the facts in this case.

There are quite a few like Kiki, who are gifted, to be able to write so eloquently, their deepest feelings & stretch your thinking to consider other alternatives.

I think it's important to try and see both sides, whether or not you believe it. I was recently on a jury and when it came time to deliberate I was shocked at how many of the jurors had their mind made up without wanting to discuss it. Of course, there were 4 of us that insisted on going through ALL the evidence... :crazy:

 

[Rumpole]

I think it's important to try and see both sides, whether or not you believe it. I was recently on a jury and when it came time to deliberate I was shocked at how many of the jurors had their mind made up without wanting to discuss it. Of course, there were 4 of us that insisted on going through ALL the evidence... :crazy:

And were the 8 quick thinkers correct after all that, or did the conscientious 4 get them all to change their minds?

 

[Who_What_When]

And were the 8 quick thinkers correct after all that, or did the conscientious 4 get them all to change their minds?

Actually we found the person guilty but of a lesser charge after reviewing everything throughly. The 8 brought things out in a different light and so did the four, so it was amazing to see how a group can really work through things even when you don't agree right away.

The one thing I was amazed by is that it's a lot easier to find guilt when your watching it on TV or reading it in a paper. I would sit and watch trials and think, how can the jury even think about this, it's a slam dunk! But when the judge gives you the rules and you have to follow the law, it's not as black and white as it seems when your on the outside. I can see how jurors have no choice but to say it wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt, even when it seems obvious. I was glad that we really went through it instead of just going off our emotions, regardless of what we personally thought of the situation we had to go off the evidence and follow the law, which in this case worked.

 

[JWG]

This scenerio, has played out in my mind many times...
With all information from your work & JamesBondJames, there is only 30 mins. between the call from George to her call to Tony @3:35pm. This is why the premeditation doesn't work for me. We know that there was an argument on the 15th, which is substantiated in the Docs., Supplemental Report, Pg 2499, by Mark F to LE. The basis of that argument stemmed from Cindy's visit on Father's Day, & her conversation with her mother about the checks, & her mother's admonition to throw KC out. I think this was building & festering with Cindy on the ride home & she finally unleashes all of this on Casey, coupled with her being an irresponsible & unfit mother to Caylee & believe it was a huge blowout. Considering this with her all-night activity with TL (very little sleep) & combined with feelings of worthlessness, it explains, why, if an accident did occur, she could not face the fact that her mother was right. If this had been injected into KC's mind over & over again & then it actually happened, here is the Self-Fullfilling Prophecy manifested into reality! I think we can all relate to some incident in life where we've seen this occur, & it is Shocking! Maybe, if this unfortunate set of circumstances had happened without the assault from the previous night's altercation, her course of action after the fact, may have been different.

The cover-up now begins. Caylee is beyond anyone's help at this point & only thru some momentary neglect on KC's part did this occur. She exonerates herself. This is also when she literally "drops out of sight" from her usual group of friends (too many reminders of Caylee) & fills her world with new people & distractions. She does not feel guilt, she is thinking the child is hers to do with, what she deems necessary, for her own survival.

As crazy as this may sound to some people, (including myself) I see young people today, as not viewing death the way previous generations do. Witnessing KC's Facebook & MySpace, paints a fatalistic portrait of her views on life & death. I do not condone, in any way shape or manner, her actions on how she disposed of her daughter, I'm just trying to step outside & look at why or how this may have happened!

Thank you Reeseeva - pretty insightful analysis. I have likened KC's reaction to an accidental death (negligent homicide, manslaughter, etc) as "KC having blown a fuse". I don't mean that she went into a rage. I mean she completed the disconnect from reality.

As with Bond, I have run the gamut of accident to diabolical, pre-meditated murder. Right now I am probably still leaning toward accidental.

I can certainly reconcile KC's behavior after Caylee's death in an accidental situation as that as a pure narcissist. But, a narcissist can kill too. I try to keep an open mind and bounce things around. Hopefully they do not bounce back too hard!

 

[reeseeva]

I agree with your theory on her behavior regarding the partying and especially, the check-writing. I have always felt that this was her one last "hoorah" so to speak. She knew she would get caught for the checks, but in her mind, she knew she was going to have to answer to something way more sinister, so it didn't matter to her. She was going to make the most of the time she had left.

Another thing has been bothering me and forgive me if it has already been discussed or dismissed. I have read a couple of posts regarding chloroform being used in the veterinary industry, although I don't remember the exact details.

I don't know if anyone remembers this, but someone posted about a live chat that took place one night on Murt's channel a few months ago. This was while LP was searching the Little Econ river. On the live chat, this person,(I can't remember the name she used offhand), claimed to know everything that happened and said that three people were involved and those people were cooperating with LE. It had something to do with chloroform being used on one someone's dogs. She said that initially Caylee's death was an accident, but then it turned into a cover up. She was complaining that if Casey didn't tell the truth, it was going to ruin a lot of lives. Does anyone remember this? Was it discussed and put to rest? Just curious.

Yes, I also happened to bring it up last week, as I recall that one of her friends may have worked for a Vet, whom I thought was Annie D??, who has been under the radar. Apparently, one response I got was that certain individuals used chloroform to come down from meth. I will try to find the posts or threads & get back to you.

 

[CourtsInSession]

I agree, goldfish, and for the same reasons. Every now and then I try to imagine an alternate story, but I keep coming back to a deliberate act. I also think premeditated most of the time.

I wonder if Casey didn't leave with Caylee right after the fight with CA on the 15th, and go to the abandoned house. She would be so full of rage at her mother, that possibly she taped Caylee's mouth, and took her rage out on Caylee. She may have chocked Caylee just like Cindy tried to do to her, to get even with her mother.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

After watching the 8/14 visit - I think I have a new theory. This makes about #43728973 (lol) but still would like feedback.

IMO On the 15th father's day. CK texted AL until 2:45AM - which at that time he's tired and tells her either you come over here or hang up. So she goes and leaves Caylee at home sleeping. Now - this could be either way - help me with the phone pings. Either she stays at AL's until 11-12 ish or she comes home before daylight (this is doubtful because she didn't leave until 2:45) but then leaves again before anyone sees her or in between when CA left for work and GA got up. Either way she's gone and Caylee is there sleeping - until she wakes up and no mommy - GA isn't up and Caylee wanders out back and falls into pool and drowns.

Regardless of which situation above is correct - KC comes waltzing in around 12 ish - or when GA is watching his cooking progam and says "Hi daddy - where's Caylee?" GA replies "huh? I thought she was with you!" By the time they "find" Caylee she's at the bottom - gone - GA performs CPR but she's gone! That's when the spin and cover up start.

Neither can call LE because each will blame it on the other. GA - It's KC's fault because she didn't tell anyone she was leaving and to watch Caylee. KC - I did so, I told mom - or I left a note on the counter - or (as KC's style) YES I DID - I told you and you said OK!" Or KC actually did tell GA in the AM that he better watch her and he said "no I have to go to work later" but she left anyway - without him knowing or seeing either of them, so he figures she took Caylee with her.

Hence the "plan" is designed. GA tells her that she's gonna have to get rid of it - and puts her in the trunk. KC agrees and they kinda discuss it (or locations). Or maybe they decide for her to come back tomorrow while CA is a work and they'll do it together (decomp in backyard).

She says in the visit that she wanted a meeting with GA because the "have always had a broken relationship". I bet its broken now

 

[txsvicki]

I don't think a jury is going to have much trouble believing premeditation. Three months prior chloroform searches then a dead body and chloroform in the trunk. Prior computer searches on missing children lead up to a missing child then a dead child with tape around her mouth. A shovel search leads to a borrowed shovel. No cadaver dog hits on the pool or in the pool. The dog hit in the corner by the pool where the bush had been dug out. The defense will have a heck of a time trying to prove an accident.

 

[Egoslayer]

After watching the 8/14 visit - I think I have a new theory. This makes about #43728973 (lol) but still would like feedback.

IMO On the 15th father's day. CK texted AL until 2:45AM - which at that time he's tired and tells her either you come over here or hang up. So she goes and leaves Caylee at home sleeping. Now - this could be either way - help me with the phone pings. Either she stays at AL's until 11-12 ish or she comes home before daylight (this is doubtful because she didn't leave until 2:45) but then leaves again before anyone sees her or in between when CA left for work and GA got up. Either way she's gone and Caylee is there sleeping - until she wakes up and no mommy - GA isn't up and Caylee wanders out back and falls into pool and drowns.

Regardless of which situation above is correct - KC comes waltzing in around 12 ish - or when GA is watching his cooking progam and says "Hi daddy - where's Caylee?" GA replies "huh? I thought she was with you!" By the time they "find" Caylee she's at the bottom - gone - GA performs CPR but she's gone! That's when the spin and cover up start.

Neither can call LE because each will blame it on the other. GA - It's KC's fault because she didn't tell anyone she was leaving and to watch Caylee. KC - I did so, I told mom - or I left a note on the counter - or (as KC's style) YES I DID - I told you and you said OK!" Or KC actually did tell GA in the AM that he better watch her and he said "no I have to go to work later" but she left anyway - without him knowing or seeing either of them, so he figures she took Caylee with her.

Hence the "plan" is designed. GA tells her that she's gonna have to get rid of it - and puts her in the trunk. KC agrees and they kinda discuss it (or locations). Or maybe they decide for her to come back tomorrow while CA is a work and they'll do it together (decomp in backyard).

She says in the visit that she wanted a meeting with GA because the "have always had a broken relationship". I bet its broken now

If George was in on it why would he tell FBI he was 'scared it could be his granddaughter in there' and why were there high traces of chloroform in the car?

 

[Egoslayer]

IMO - the clorophorm was just pesticide.


FACTS:
Chloroform doesn't knock people out for hours. At most it lasts 15 minutes.
Benadryl is cheaper than making/buying chloroform.
Chloroform is NOT the same thing as chlorine.
Chloroform is found in certain dyes and pesticides.

 

[Forensic fan]

You'll get no opposition from me LOL. This is what I've been saying, "from Day One." If we look back on those telling words of KC's, in the Diary of Days following, it is equally consistent:

“On the worst of worst days, remember the words spoken
Trust no one, only yourself.
With great power, comes great consequence.
What is given can be taken away.
Everyone Lies.
Everyone Dies.”

There is nothing in this which suggests premeditation, nor even the mindset of one who has intentionally murdered. It conveys, rather, a mind and heart shut down--unable to register the horror of something she does not so much seem to deny responsibility for as she is saying it's the indirect consequence of her irresponsibility or something over which she appears to be feeling powerless. If she is indeed referring to Caylee, she uses the word "taken." And that, to me, is terribly significant. JMO

I always thought this was directed toward Cindy. "Remember the words spoken" is the fight they had, "With great power comes consequence", the consequence was Cindy losing Caylee, Casey gave her a grand child but took her away, etc.

 

[Forensic fan]

After watching the 8/14 visit - I think I have a new theory. This makes about #43728973 (lol) but still would like feedback.

IMO On the 15th father's day. CK texted AL until 2:45AM - which at that time he's tired and tells her either you come over here or hang up. So she goes and leaves Caylee at home sleeping. Now - this could be either way - help me with the phone pings. Either she stays at AL's until 11-12 ish or she comes home before daylight (this is doubtful because she didn't leave until 2:45) but then leaves again before anyone sees her or in between when CA left for work and GA got up. Either way she's gone and Caylee is there sleeping - until she wakes up and no mommy - GA isn't up and Caylee wanders out back and falls into pool and drowns.

Regardless of which situation above is correct - KC comes waltzing in around 12 ish - or when GA is watching his cooking progam and says "Hi daddy - where's Caylee?" GA replies "huh? I thought she was with you!" By the time they "find" Caylee she's at the bottom - gone - GA performs CPR but she's gone! That's when the spin and cover up start.

Neither can call LE because each will blame it on the other. GA - It's KC's fault because she didn't tell anyone she was leaving and to watch Caylee. KC - I did so, I told mom - or I left a note on the counter - or (as KC's style) YES I DID - I told you and you said OK!" Or KC actually did tell GA in the AM that he better watch her and he said "no I have to go to work later" but she left anyway - without him knowing or seeing either of them, so he figures she took Caylee with her.

Hence the "plan" is designed. GA tells her that she's gonna have to get rid of it - and puts her in the trunk. KC agrees and they kinda discuss it (or locations). Or maybe they decide for her to come back tomorrow while CA is a work and they'll do it together (decomp in backyard).

She says in the visit that she wanted a meeting with GA because the "have always had a broken relationship". I bet its broken now

I can't believe that GA wouldn't call 911 if this had happened. Why a coverup?

 

[kline]

I don't think a jury is going to have much trouble believing premeditation. Three months prior chloroform searches then a dead body and chloroform in the trunk. Prior computer searches on missing children lead up to a missing child then a dead child with tape around her mouth. A shovel search leads to a borrowed shovel. No cadaver dog hits on the pool or in the pool. The dog hit in the corner by the pool where the bush had been dug out. The defense will have a heck of a time trying to prove an accident.

Especially considering it wasnt an accident .Im sure the jurors will be level headed enough tolook at Casey behavior after Caylee's dissappearence and the rest of the evidence and follow it to its one logical conclusion.
I dont think the defense will be able to sway them with adle-pated 'accident' fantasies.

 

[kiki the parrot]

I always thought this was directed toward Cindy. "Remember the words spoken" is the fight they had, "With great power comes consequence", the consequence was Cindy losing Caylee, Casey gave her a grand child but took her away, etc.

I never took it that way. If you're right and I'm wrong, that would indeed make her one spiteful b* But if I put these into context--ie w her remarks to LA, LE ("Maybe I am an unfit mother" etc), vengance or malice just never seemed to me to fit as well w the kind of guilt and regret she later seems to express to some. Seriously, can someone who could deliberately, coldbloodedly murder their child simply to spite their parent then just spin around and have a sudden attack of conscience or heaviness of heart? I really don't know the answer, but to me the idea is just mindboggling. JMHUO
:waitasec:

 

[kiki the parrot]

Especially considering it wasnt an accident .Im sure the jurors will be level headed enough tolook at Casey behavior after Caylee's dissappearence and the rest of the evidence and follow it to its one logical conclusion.
I dont think the defense will be able to sway them with adle-pated 'accident' fantasies.

The defense has their work cut out for them, to be sure! Especially since it appears KC tampered w/ and destroyed the only evidence which could ever have proven a negligence scenario. I consider myself quite levelheaded and grow weary of the constant jabs at any of us who are just waiting patiently for the rest of the pieces--ie referring to my own theory as "addlepated" ("stupid, blathering, muddleheaded," really love new words btw and that's a new one on me) but could we knock off the attacks just the same? That's why the last Theories thread got locked down... TIA! JMO

Continue to post and discuss your theories here. Leave the attacks and off topic chit chat at the door.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78053

 

[Forensic fan]

I never took it that way. If you're right and I'm wrong, that would indeed make her one spiteful b* But if I put these into context--w her remarks to LA, LE ("Maybe I am an unfit mother" etc), vengance or malice just never seemed to me to fit as well w the kind of guilt and regret she later seems to express to some. Seriously, can someone who could deliberately, coldbloodedly murder their child simply to spite their parent then just spin around and have an attack of conscience or any heaviness of heart? I really don't know the answer, but to me the idea is just mindboggling. JMHUO
:waitasec:

I feel that that the remarks she said, "Maybe I am an unfit mother, This should have been done a long time ago" were just to gain sympathy for herself. I can remember when I was a kid and got in big trouble when something I did was found out, I would say, "Oh, I am so stupid" or "I don't want to live any more". My parents would then say "Oh, don't say that, you are not stupid, honey, we love you." It took the focus off what I had done very fast and then they felt sorry for me instead of being angry with me.

 

[Blaise]

I posted this link and info on another earlier thread. Turns out cadaver dogs can pick up the scent of someone w/in minutes of time of death (ie where gases have been forming as little as ten--and even two--minutes) with amazing accuracy, the success rate of which only slightly diminishes relative to the amount of time body is in contact w that location. This leads me to believe the dogs hit in the backyard--near the pool--because that's logically the first place KC would have placed her (and possibly where Caylee laid if KC either made a desperate attempt to revive her or during the panicked series of calls) after retrieving Caylee from the pool. I see no other logical explanation for why KC would have chosen this spot to lay her daughter. JMO

"One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out--of a line-up of six new carpet squares--the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...es-835047.html

I was just having morbid thoughts about how they found the people who they knew were gonna die so they could have the dogs on the spot. I think I'd get a bit worried if I looked up and there was a cadavar dog sitting there, tongue wagging, just waiting.

Blaise (back off, you stupid dog. It's just a cold!)