Things that are Plaguing Me

[DeeDee249]

Recently I have been reading on some of the other forums, and came upon a discussion about the possibility that, because of her arm position, that she may have been tied upright by her wrists. When she actually was taken down, her arms had to stay in that position due to rigor. I had never thought of that, but did wonder why her arms were above her head. If that could have happened, wondering if the urine stains could still be in the front. To me, the wrist ties do not look strong enough to have held her. I do agree, her bladder emptied at the time of her death.

Never happened. Her wrists bore NO marks to indicate they were tied at ALL, the hands were not swollen as they should have been, and if she was suspended, her arms would be pulled straight up over her head, straight elbows. Her elbow were bent at almost right angles, and the cords made no ark at all on her wrists.
Her arms were not up over her head. Her wrists were approx in front of her face. They were bent at the elbow, up in front of her face.
Rigor will cause muscles to contract and pull shorter and shorter. We can only guess what position they were in when she was flipped over on her back (after she died on her stomach) but even rigor wouldn't pull them down to the position they were found in. They might have been down at her side, but lower arms across her stomach, bent at the elbow, but hands on her abdomen. They might have been bent at the elbow at a different angle, but up straight with her hands next to her ears, palms up. Rigor can also cause the elbows to bend. But one thing- however she was found is the way she was left in the WC. She was not "untied", "cut down", or "turned over" anytime within 3-4 hours or so of her death.

 

[GingBreade]

This always bothers me. Why would they even question Patsy about this? Did they find some strange photos?

21 THOMAS HANEY: Did you take some

22 photographs of JonBenet in the basement laundry

23 room?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

25 TRIP DeMUTH: You had presents in

0186

1 the basement laundry room, right?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

3 TRIP DeMUTH: So you wrapped

4 presents in the basement laundry room, right?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

6 TRIP DeMUTH: So you were down in

7 the basement laundry room pretty often?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Depending on what

9 time of year it was, yeah, uh-hum.

10 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you remember

11 photographs being -- photographs of JonBenet

12 being in there?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the

14 laundry room?

15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs

16 of her located in the laundry room?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, in the laundry

18 room, oh. I don't know, there was a bunch of

19 stuff, I mean wrapping stuff and everything. I

20 don't remember any photographs.

21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is there any reason

22 why there would be photographs of JonBenet

23 located in the laundry room?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Were there --

25 I mean, did somebody find them there?

1 TRIP DeMUTH: If there were, would

2 that be out of place for you?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: It would seem to be

4 out of place. I kept wrapping materials and

5 sometimes I worked, wrapping station, Christmas

6 paper and --

7 TRIP DeMUTH: Would -- who else had

8 access to the laundry room, who else would go in

9 there? I know everybody would have access, but

10 who else would use it? Would the boys play in

11 there? Would John go down there?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean anybody

13 could, but I mean the boys could come down and

14 go in the train room, we had the train set up.

15 In the far back in through there, you know. Not

16 in the laundry, really, area.

17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody besides

18 you use that laundry room?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometimes Linda

20 would wash, if we were washing comforters or

21 something, because those were big heavy-duty

22 laundry machines, she'd take the things in

23 there, rugs and things, and wash them down

24 there.

25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.

0188

1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall

2 taking a photo of her down there?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)

4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing

5 something really cutesy or something, would you

6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the

8 laundry room?

9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

 

[UKGuy]

This always bothers me. Why would they even question Patsy about this? Did they find some strange photos?

21 THOMAS HANEY: Did you take some

22 photographs of JonBenet in the basement laundry

23 room?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

25 TRIP DeMUTH: You had presents in

0186

1 the basement laundry room, right?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

3 TRIP DeMUTH: So you wrapped

4 presents in the basement laundry room, right?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

6 TRIP DeMUTH: So you were down in

7 the basement laundry room pretty often?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Depending on what

9 time of year it was, yeah, uh-hum.

10 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you remember

11 photographs being -- photographs of JonBenet

12 being in there?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the

14 laundry room?

15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs

16 of her located in the laundry room?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, in the laundry

18 room, oh. I don't know, there was a bunch of

19 stuff, I mean wrapping stuff and everything. I

20 don't remember any photographs.

21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is there any reason

22 why there would be photographs of JonBenet

23 located in the laundry room?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Were there --

25 I mean, did somebody find them there?

1 TRIP DeMUTH: If there were, would

2 that be out of place for you?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: It would seem to be

4 out of place. I kept wrapping materials and

5 sometimes I worked, wrapping station, Christmas

6 paper and --

7 TRIP DeMUTH: Would -- who else had

8 access to the laundry room, who else would go in

9 there? I know everybody would have access, but

10 who else would use it? Would the boys play in

11 there? Would John go down there?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean anybody

13 could, but I mean the boys could come down and

14 go in the train room, we had the train set up.

15 In the far back in through there, you know. Not

16 in the laundry, really, area.

17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody besides

18 you use that laundry room?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometimes Linda

20 would wash, if we were washing comforters or

21 something, because those were big heavy-duty

22 laundry machines, she'd take the things in

23 there, rugs and things, and wash them down

24 there.

25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.

0188

1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall

2 taking a photo of her down there?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)

4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing

5 something really cutesy or something, would you

6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the

8 laundry room?

9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

GingBreade,

Why would they even question Patsy about this? Did they find some strange photos?

Because it was a collection of themed picture with JonBenet as the subject, there was the suggestion, mainly pageant poses? Anyway looks like police want to confirm or deny that someone has dumped these photos in the basement.

.

 

[Toltec]

Patsy's answer for the photos of JonBenet were that she had a paper cutter down in the laundry area. She must have cut some photos for JonBenet's portfolio.

 

[Agatha_C]

I cant get past the lies. Im sorry, but I just cant do it...


1998 June 25, 26, 27 - Taped Interrogation interview of Patsy Ramsey by Tom Haney and Trip DeMuth in Colorado

NE Book Page 143, 144
Tom Haney: "How about JonBenet's room, what was the condition of the room?

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, I remember racing over and her door was just kind of slightly ajar.. three, four inches, you know."

Tom Haney: "Okay. Is that the way you left it the night before?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yes, that's usually the way I left it."

Tom Haney: "And is there a particular reason?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, I closed it because if I did leave a light on out here, it would shine pretty brightly into her room so I closed to make it a little darker in there. But I want to leave it so if she needed me or called out or something I could hear her, you know." http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-discovery.htm

07-09-1998 A&E Documentary
'Who Killed JonBenet’
By Michael Tracy and David Mills

Man: The following morning, Dec. 26th, the Ramseys got out of bed early in their third floor bedroom. They were due to take off to the local airport at half past seven. Patsy Ramsey says she went downstairs at about 5:30 to put together clothes for the trip from the laundry cupboard just outside JonBenet's bedroom."

Patsy Ramsey: "I was fussing around getting some clothes and glanced at her door and the door was closed. I always left it ajar a little bit. I just started downstairs and there were these pieces of paper lying on one of the rungs of the stairs. I kind of turned around and looked at it to see what it was and I started reading the first couple of lines. It just wasn't registering but somewhere it said, 'we have your daughter' it clicked, you know, 'Your Daughter' and I just bounded back up the steps and threw her door open and she was not in her bed." http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-discovery.htm

CA is on trial for many things, some of them being the lies she told. How is it PR was never in trouble for doing the same. I get so worked up over crud like this and it plagues me...

 

[Maikai]

This again, does not appear to be outright lies---unlike the CA case.

She commented on how she usually left the door open a few inches. When she went downstairs, it sounds like she made a mental note the door was closed, and remembered that later, but it wasn't a big deal at the time. It was just something she recalled. I don't see what difference it would make one way or the other.

 

[Agatha_C]

This again, does not appear to be outright lies---unlike the CA case.

She commented on how she usually left the door open a few inches. When she went downstairs, it sounds like she made a mental note the door was closed, and remembered that later, but it wasn't a big deal at the time. It was just something she recalled. I don't see what difference it would make one way or the other.

Maikai,

Maybe it would help me to understand your defending a liar, if you could just explain what a lie/liar is too you.

Her child had been murdered and maybe, just maybe if one fact had been true or at least consistent, the murderer might have been found by now, whether it be a Ramsey or an intruder. Patsy had said over and over again, that Jonbenets door had been open, then suddenly it had been closed.

How do you make those mistakes when your child has been murdered? How can anyone say, oh well, it was no big deal. So what, if their lies hinder the hunt for their childs killer! Its not like untruth is a lie or anything, its not like it mattered.. Than what did if not the absolute truth?

If she couldnt keep the small things straight than what about the big ones?

If you tell an untruth/lie in court its called perjury and its against the law. So again, I ask you, what do you consider a lie?

A lie (also called prevarication, falsehood) is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others.
To lie is to state something with disregard to the truth with the intention that people will accept the statement as truth.
A liar is a person who is lying, who has previously lied, or who tends by nature to lie repeatedly - even when not necessary.
Lying is typically used to refer to deceptions in oral or written communication. Other forms of deception, such as disguises or forgeries, are generally not considered lies, though the underlying intent may be the same. However, even a true statement can be used to deceive. In this situation, it is the intent of being overall untruthful rather than the truthfulness of any individual statement that is considered the lie. As in the boy who cried wolf.
Serious lies (such as perjury, fraud, and defamation) are punishable by law.
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie[/ame]

 

[BBB167893]

Maikai,

Maybe it would help me to understand your defending a liar, if you could just explain what a lie/liar is too you.

Her child had been murdered and maybe, just maybe if one fact had been true or at least consistent, the murderer might have been found by now, whether it be a Ramsey or an intruder. Patsy had said over and over again, that Jonbenets door had been open, then suddenly it had been closed.

How do you make those mistakes when your child has been murdered? How can anyone say, oh well, it was no big deal. So what, if their lies hinder the hunt for their childs killer! Its not like untruth is a lie or anything, its not like it mattered.. Than what did if not the absolute truth?

If she couldnt keep the small things straight than what about the big ones?

If you tell an untruth/lie in court its called perjury and its against the law. So again, I ask you, what do you consider a lie?

A lie (also called prevarication, falsehood) is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others.
To lie is to state something with disregard to the truth with the intention that people will accept the statement as truth.
A liar is a person who is lying, who has previously lied, or who tends by nature to lie repeatedly - even when not necessary.
Lying is typically used to refer to deceptions in oral or written communication. Other forms of deception, such as disguises or forgeries, are generally not considered lies, though the underlying intent may be the same. However, even a true statement can be used to deceive. In this situation, it is the intent of being overall untruthful rather than the truthfulness of any individual statement that is considered the lie. As in the boy who cried wolf.
Serious lies (such as perjury, fraud, and defamation) are punishable by law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie

I love it when these IDIs get pushed into a corner, Agatha! And the example you gave is one of the more BENIGN ones to choose from!

 

[Agatha_C]

I love it when these IDIs get pushed into a corner, Agatha! And the example you gave is one of the more BENIGN ones to choose from!

Now how does that old saying go? Something about a battle and wits and the unarmed. Maybe its battles, facts and the unarmed? Gee maybe its both and Im just confused. It'll come to me later...

Benign, thats a lovely word Dave, thank you....

 

[Ssejors]

You just said something I think is full of common sense. Anyone kidnapping a child does just that. Takes the child. If in the process of taking JB she was killed, the kidnapper would leave her behind right where she was, and get out of there immediately, not risk discovery by finding a place to hide the body. And, another thing that always bothered me, what kidnapper waits until he gets to the scene of the crime to write a ransom note?

BBM- I agree with this bolded statement. To NOT bring a ransom note TO a kidnapping is stupid. This invites many issues for a kidnapper.

1) It's going to add TIME to the kidnapping MISSION. You have to spend more time at the scene of the crime, farting around, writing a RN.
2) What if you cant FIND paper and pen? Then what do you write a RN with?
3) Who takes a RN written on Paper, or NOTE pads from your own house seriously? My first thought would be.. HAHAHAHA dear husband, very funny. Or I would instantly look to my 14 y/o son and think, what kinda game are you playing at. Because again, in my mind, a RN shouldn't be written on MY paper from MY house.
4)Looking for paper, using that paper, looking for a pen, using that pen, is just going to ADD more POTENTIAL evidence to the crime scene.
5) Looking for things to write a RN with is just plan sloppy and noisy! Junk drawers, pen jars, junk cupboards and such, are noisy things. It's not exactly Stealthy.

A RN is VERY controlled. You don't just write one Willy-nilly. It's something you take time to think about and write properly. And LIKELY, if you are kidnapping someone you may very well have a COHORT and would Work on writing that RN WITH that COHORT. Agree on an amount of money, agree on threats to the victim, agree on WHEN the exchange may happen. A RN is a PLAN, so therefore it should be PLANNED out.

A person does not just show up in the middle of the night with the intention of kidnapping someone and then go, oh hot damn, i forgot the NOTE! Quick scrounge through the cupboards and find something to write on!

 

[Ssejors]

I'm confused as to the date/time of death, on JBR's headstone it is 25th of december, but as death is declared by the medical examiner it should read 26th of december. I always thought given the digestion of the pineapple and state of decomposition, actual time of death would be after midnight and therefore the 26th.

ah yes.. But Dec 26th is boxing day, and fairly uneventful

dec 25 is CHRISTMAS day... and there for, more dramatic.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I believe that the Ramseys put December 25th on JBR's headstone because that's the date she actually died. If they got home from the White's house at 10, then that's a 2 hour window for JBR's death. It's plausible that one of the Ramseys bashed JBR's head before 12/25 was over, but not very likely that an intruder snuck into the home right after the family went to bed, and kidnapped and murdered JBR in the basement before the clock struck midnight.

 

[Nova]

I believe that the Ramseys put December 25th on JBR's headstone because that's the date she actually died. If they got home from the White's house at 10, then that's a 2 hour window for JBR's death. It's plausible that one of the Ramseys bashed JBR's head before 12/25 was over, but not very likely that an intruder snuck into the home right after the family went to bed, and kidnapped and murdered JBR in the basement before the clock struck midnight.

People have a tendency to think of a day beginning when they wake up. Assuming for purposes of discussion that IDI, JBR was taken and killed before PR and JR woke up and 12/26 "began"; thus, it was still 12/25 (in the minds of the Rs) when JBR died.

The same argument can apply if RDI. I don't think the headstone date tells us anything.

 

[Nova]

I love it when these IDIs get pushed into a corner, Agatha! And the example you gave is one of the more BENIGN ones to choose from!

I am not an IDI, nor have I ever been one. But Maikai's point was that people make errors about small things like whether doors are open a few inches or closed.

I'm sure we'd all like to think we'd have photographic memories if one of our children were kidnapped and/or murdered, but I know of no study that proves that to be so.

Whether or not PR was part of the murder or cover up, her open/closed door error may just be one more example why eyewitness testimony isn't all that reliable.

 

[DeeDee249]

ah yes.. But Dec 26th is boxing day, and fairly uneventful

dec 25 is CHRISTMAS day... and there for, more dramatic.

Boxing Day isn't celebrated in the US, and most Americans are not familiar with it. Many have never heard of it.

 

[SunnieRN]

I believe that the Ramseys put December 25th on JBR's headstone because that's the date she actually died. If they got home from the White's house at 10, then that's a 2 hour window for JBR's death. It's plausible that one of the Ramseys bashed JBR's head before 12/25 was over, but not very likely that an intruder snuck into the home right after the family went to bed, and kidnapped and murdered JBR in the basement before the clock struck midnight.

Out of all the statements the R's made, the lies they told, the people they accused, the barriers they put up to hamper a true investigation, the date listed on the tombstone tells me beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they KNEW when JonBenet died.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

As I said in my last post, I believe that JonBenet was killed on 12/25. There was no way that Patsy was going to put 12/26 on her daughter's grave when her daughter really died on Christmas, of all days of the years. Patsy was all about appearances. JonBenet was buried in her pageant crown, gown, and her grave said that she died on Christmas. I don't believe 12/25 was put on JBR's grave so JonBenet would get media attention; it was put on her grave just so Patsy could say to everyone she met that she had a daughter who died on Christmas. I assuming that they picked out the date very soon after JonBenet died, before the backlash against them, so they weren't even considering that the date would be considered suspicious by millions of people. At the time, they were still complete unknowns and they were only thinking about how their family and friends would view JBR's death, not the entire country.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

By putting the 25th on the gravestone, it helps to imply that was the last time the Ramseys saw JonBenet as per their claims. It forms part of the staging of the crime imo -- the Ramseys wanted to de-associate themselves with all things related to the nearest proximity of JonBenet's death. And if the facts are to be believed then JonBenet most certainly died on the 26th (rigor mortis, time of the scream etc). They couldn't put the 26th on the grave for fear of somewhat implicating themselves into the crime.

 

[DeeDee249]

By putting the 25th on the gravestone, it helps to imply that was the last time the Ramseys saw JonBenet as per their claims. It forms part of the staging of the crime imo -- the Ramseys wanted to de-associate themselves with all things related to the nearest proximity of JonBenet's death. And if the facts are to be believed then JonBenet most certainly died on the 26th (rigor mortis, time of the scream etc). They couldn't put the 26th on the grave for fear of somewhat implicating themselves into the crime.

By putting the 25th on there, they can certainly claim the last time they saw her alive was the 25th. But to me, their logic is flawed. They claim to be innocent, so they really should not know WHEN she died. They could just as easily have put the 26th, because that is the day they found her body. Of course, we know, as did the coroner, that her death came between 11 pm and 1 am, based on the sage of rigor mortis she was in, and based on the location of her last solid food (the pineapple) in her small intestine, which takes about 2 hours to get there from the stomach. The Rs ADMIT to getting home between 9-10 pm, so the time of death is no mystery and I find it a great lapse in judgement on his part not to put at least an estimated TOD. I hope if he ever gets on a witness stand, he will be asked why he chose not to do so.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

By putting the 25th on there, they can certainly claim the last time they saw her alive was the 25th. But to me, their logic is flawed. They claim to be innocent, so they really should not know WHEN she died. They could just as easily have put the 26th, because that is the day they found her body. Of course, we know, as did the coroner, that her death came between 11 pm and 1 am, based on the sage of rigor mortis she was in, and based on the location of her last solid food (the pineapple) in her small intestine, which takes about 2 hours to get there from the stomach. The Rs ADMIT to getting home between 9-10 pm, so the time of death is no mystery and I find it a great lapse in judgement on his part not to put at least an estimated TOD. I hope if he ever gets on a witness stand, he will be asked why he chose not to do so.

It really annoys me that no commitment to a TOD was presented. As you say, there was a plethora of clues as to when she died.

I think the Ramseys had two choices : pick the 25th of the 26th. The 25th won out. The reasons are only speculations of course by us lot, but the 25th was Christmas and so had that symbolic power associated with it; the 25th was the last time the Ramseys claimed to see JonBenet before she died and the 25th helps to reinforce their detachment to her dead body on the 26th.