2 Things that have me wondering

[JMO8778]

But nothing about John on the morning of the 26th suggests panic. He could be described as being nervous and someone who is thinking things over, but not in a panic. Patsy, however, is a basket case.

Later in television interviews John is talking about the death of his daughter and yet he has the calmness and confidence of someone being on TV because they are running for the US Senate or have just accomplished something wonderful.

I think Toltec summed it up perfectly with the comment that this is a guy who was presented with a situation and he handled it as he deemed necessary.

I still think people underestimate John. He was an extremely successful businessman and he is somebody who knows how to get things done. I think the major reason this case is sitting unsolved is because of the actions he took after the 911 call and maybe a few actions before that. So in totality, does the crime scene look like the work of him and Patsy over many hours and I think the answer is no.

I'm not saying John had no part in the staging, just that Steve Thomas is probably right in thinking John became involved later.

I think there are two important clues about John's involvement.

The first clue is Patsy made the 911 call. If John really thought there was an intruder and a kidnapping, John makes the call. A guy like him standing on the sidelines while his daughter is in grave danger, no way.

The second clue is John saying this looked like an inside job after bringing Jonbenet's body upstairs. It is also obvious they were going to play up the insider theory to explain what happened. Why then put "foreign faction" in the ransom note? If your life is in danger, why change horses in the middle of the stream? An insider is not a foreign faction. I see no way John would make that switch in strategy so early if he had sat with Patsy and helped write the ransom note.

I repeat again what Toltec said, John was presented with a situation and he handled it. That doesn't mean he created or helped create the situation.

trying to get out of town 20 mins after finding his daughter's body reeks of panic..as does having PP retrieve their passports and a ton of personal items.
I think JR had PR make the call so as to distance himself from the fact he dictated part,if not all,of the RN.There is just no way,after hearing Jeff Merrick's interview,that I can think JR didn't have any input into it.The '2 gentlemen' in the note were in reference to 2 of JM's friends..I think it's plain and simple,JR was trying to set him up,since he'd had probs. with him thru the company,and JM was the first person JR mentioned.So JR's comment,'this had to be an inside job',was still in reference to that.
I also think the 'you will need to be rested' and 'we will call you tomorrow'(meaning the 27th,IMO),and the part about not contacting LE or JB would be beheaded, was an attempt to buy more time in order to have time to think about and plan more of what to do b/f calling LE,and to have an excuse to cancel the MI trip."We will call you tomorrow",gives them a whole day to think and carry out a plan.
And I do think in a moment of panic they thought about putting JB outside somewhere,but couldn't go thru with it..thus the 'or you will be denied her remains for proper buriel' comment.
As well as the $118,000 JR used to point to JM,and the ref. to his first name John..trying to make it appear to be someone who knew him personally,not just as Mr R.(same with the 'use that good southern common sense of yours' line).As well as the ref. to 'fat cat',as in,JR was trying to make this appear to be someone(s) competititive with him.
And finally,I believe the line about getting the money early was to account for JR being seen leaving the house on the 27th(yes,with JB's body).The 'beheaded' comment was put there b/c of the way JB's body was staged;albeit not with her head completely off,but being her parents, I don't think they could have done that.

I think the RN has been over-analyzed.Every line and word in it was put there for a reason...to either account for something,to point to someone,or to make room for more time to finish carrying out or figuring out the best plan.JMO.

 

[Albert18]

But these were two educated intelligent people. Together, wouldn't they write a concise note that expressed exactly what they were trying to accomplish? Instead it is a note that may go down as the most infamous ransom note in history because of the rambling way it was written.

Also, the note is written to John. If John was there at the time wouldn't it more likely be written to the two of them. To me it reads like Patsy was alone writing a letter to John.

I agree there are references about John's business, but wouldn't Patsy know this information?

 

[JMO8778]

But these were two educated intelligent people. Together, wouldn't they write a concise note that expressed exactly what they were trying to accomplish? Instead it is a note that may go down as the most infamous ransom note in history because of the rambling way it was written.

Also, the note is written to John. If John was there at the time wouldn't it more likely be written to the two of them. To me it reads like Patsy was alone writing a letter to John.

I agree there are references about John's business, but wouldn't Patsy know this information?

I think it was as concise as they could get in a moment of such panic.
I think that was the trick though..address it to JR,as if he wasn't there,and have PR write it,so as not to be able to identify his handwriting on it.I think they purposely inserted a lot of irony into the whole crime itself.
Here's what I think they did,and this is almost a confession of sorts,IMO:

their book,DOI,p. 246:

John and I wrote a message of appreciation to our friends to be printed on the back of the liturgy of the day.We thanked the people for their support throughout the past year and expressed how much their love meant to us.We also commented on the meaning of the Christmas season and why it was important to remember the real reason we celebrate this time of the year.In composing this expression of appreciation,John and I had each written a version.With both copies in hand,John dictated and I typed at the computer as we merged the two into one.Later Susan Stine and Roxy Walker made a few edits as they typed it into the liturgical program.This edited version contained the words and hence.Those two words turned out to be the next bombshell !

me: I'll say ...imagine that !
Remember,there were many pages missing from the notepad,which were never found.

Anyway,that's just my take on it;I'm not here to debate or anything like that.I respect others' opinions.IMO,JR's fiber evidence is pretty damning,and is a reason to look further than just PR alone being in on it.Not to mention in DOI,he's trying to account for his underwear fibers being in JB's room.That's not to say he's guilty alone though.

 

[Albert18]

"I'm not here to debate or anything like that.I respect others' opinions."

Well I wouldn't call this a debate but rather a discussion. I see a debate as entrenched people bludgeoning each other with their ideas. Too often in these forums I see people talking past each other rather than reading carefully what has been presented and then thinking about it. So in that vein, I don't know when John became involved and so am trying to see if we can pinpoint a time period.

Here is how I would break down that night into phases.

Phase 1: Time period right before the injury. What brought JonBenet into the presence of someone else?

Phase 2: The head injury occurs. This lasts only seconds.

Phase 3: Post head injury/pre-staging time period. This is where 911 should have been called. If Phase 1 & 2 involve just Patsy and JonBenet then you would think this is where Patsy ran and got John. It would be very interesting to know how long this phase lasts.

Phase 4: This is where JonBenet dies. This is where she is moved and her body is arranged.

Phase 5: The ransom note is written.

Phase 6: This is the time period between the ransom note and the 911 call.

Phase 7: The 911 call.

Phase 8: The police arrive and the rest of the morning.

As for John's fibers, I have seen people mention this a lot and using that info they throw John into the entire staging process. I would point out John could have become involved in phase 6 and that is when the fiber contamination may have occurred. Looking at phases 1 through 7, I would say phase 6 is probably the longest time period. More things could have been done with her body during this time period.

A thought I often have is that in phase 3, if you have two parents in the room, 911 is called. Two people understand the consequences of not calling 911, but one person panics and by the time we get to phase 6 and if this is when John is involved, it is too late.

But if Patsy doesn't run and get John in phase 3, why and how does she go drag him out of bed in phase 6 and say..."oh, by the way, I had a few problems last night that you should know about".

John is completely in charge and running the show in phase 8, but he makes Patsy make the 911 call. I have always taken this to be John's Pontius Pilate moment.

 

[JMO8778]

Well I wouldn't call this a debate but rather a discussion. I see a debate as entrenched people bludgeoning each other with their ideas. Too often in these forums I see people talking past each other rather than reading carefully what has been presented and then thinking about it.

I totally agree with that !

So in that vein, I don't know when John became involved and so am trying to see if we can pinpoint a time period.

Here is how I would break down that night into phases.

Phase 1: Time period right before the injury. What brought JonBenet into the presence of someone else?

Phase 2: The head injury occurs. This lasts only seconds.

Phase 3: Post head injury/pre-staging time period. This is where 911 should have been called. If Phase 1 & 2 involve just Patsy and JonBenet then you would think this is where Patsy ran and got John. It would be very interesting to know how long this phase lasts.

Phase 4: This is where JonBenet dies. This is where she is moved and her body is arranged.

Phase 5: The ransom note is written.

Phase 6: This is the time period between the ransom note and the 911 call.

Phase 7: The 911 call.

Phase 8: The police arrive and the rest of the morning.

As for John's fibers, I have seen people mention this a lot and using that info they throw John into the entire staging process. I would point out John could have become involved in phase 6 and that is when the fiber contamination may have occurred.

my other thought on that is he could have been in contact with JB b/f she went to bed(thus leaving the fiber evidence),and then he went to bed,and at some point after that, PR comes in and starts the attack on JB.

A thought I often have is that in phase 3, if you have two parents in the room, 911 is called. Two people understand the consequences of not calling 911, but one person panics and by the time we get to phase 6 and if this is when John is involved, it is too late.

But if Patsy doesn't run and get John in phase 3, why and how does she go drag him out of bed in phase 6 and say..."oh, by the way, I had a few problems last night that you should know about".

I agree,I would like to know as well how long PR waited,(if she did it) bf going to get JR. Did she really think there was some hope,was she in denial,or did she wait until she was sure JB wasn't going to make it?Did JR really believe it was too late for her at that point,or did he want to make sure she was dead as well...due to molestation evidence?

John is completely in charge and running the show in phase 8, but he makes Patsy make the 911 call. I have always taken this to be John's Pontius Pilate moment.

good thought.I think JR was involved sometime prior to that though,at least b/f the RN is written..I think the choice of words show some evidence of his involvement and him trying to set up JM and friends for the crime,as well as an attempt to buy more time until LE is called.
As far as the RN goes,I can't see PR just coming up on her own with all of that..I think there was a reason for every word and line used.If she wrote it on her own, as in what she thought a ransom note should look,I think it would have been shorter and more to the point,as in: "GOT YOUR KID.1 MILL GETS HER BACK.WILL CALL". Instead,in addition to trying to buy more time with it,there is an attempt there to set someone up ..someone (s) who knows JR on a first name basis,knows a bit about him and is upset with him,as well as the condition of the body ("beheaded"),and a reason as to why she might not come be given back("you will be denied her remains"),and why she's placed where she is,in case she is ever found ("for proper buriel").

 

[rashomon]

Well I wouldn't call this a debate but rather a discussion. I see a debate as entrenched people bludgeoning each other with their ideas. Too often in these forums I see people talking past each other rather than reading carefully what has been presented and then thinking about it. So in that vein, I don't know when John became involved and so am trying to see if we can pinpoint a time period.

Here is how I would break down that night into phases.

Phase 1: Time period right before the injury. What brought JonBenet into the presence of someone else?

Phase 2: The head injury occurs. This lasts only seconds.

Phase 3: Post head injury/pre-staging time period. This is where 911 should have been called. If Phase 1 & 2 involve just Patsy and JonBenet then you would think this is where Patsy ran and got John. It would be very interesting to know how long this phase lasts.

Phase 4: This is where JonBenet dies. This is where she is moved and her body is arranged.

Phase 5: The ransom note is written.

Phase 6: This is the time period between the ransom note and the 911 call.

Phase 7: The 911 call.

Phase 8: The police arrive and the rest of the morning.

As for John's fibers, I have seen people mention this a lot and using that info they throw John into the entire staging process. I would point out John could have become involved in phase 6 and that is when the fiber contamination may have occurred. Looking at phases 1 through 7, I would say phase 6 is probably the longest time period. More things could have been done with her body during this time period.

A thought I often have is that in phase 3, if you have two parents in the room, 911 is called. Two people understand the consequences of not calling 911, but one person panics and by the time we get to phase 6 and if this is when John is involved, it is too late.

But if Patsy doesn't run and get John in phase 3, why and how does she go drag him out of bed in phase 6 and say..."oh, by the way, I had a few problems last night that you should know about".

John is completely in charge and running the show in phase 8, but he makes Patsy make the 911 call. I have always taken this to be John's Pontius Pilate moment.

Great post, Albert!
Re phase 3: I too think this is when she ran and got John.

Question to all in that context: on this page, there is a picture of John and Patsy's bedroom:

http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene2.html

Does anyone know where John's side of the bed was? For the left side of the bed (from the viewer's perspective) imo does not look like someone slept in it on that night.
I believe neither JonBenet nor Patsy went to bed on that tragic night, and in case the left side of the bed was actually Patsy's side, it would only confirm my belief.

 

[UKGuy]

Well I wouldn't call this a debate but rather a discussion. I see a debate as entrenched people bludgeoning each other with their ideas. Too often in these forums I see people talking past each other rather than reading carefully what has been presented and then thinking about it. So in that vein, I don't know when John became involved and so am trying to see if we can pinpoint a time period.

Here is how I would break down that night into phases.

Phase 1: Time period right before the injury. What brought JonBenet into the presence of someone else?

Phase 2: The head injury occurs. This lasts only seconds.

Phase 3: Post head injury/pre-staging time period. This is where 911 should have been called. If Phase 1 & 2 involve just Patsy and JonBenet then you would think this is where Patsy ran and got John. It would be very interesting to know how long this phase lasts.

Phase 4: This is where JonBenet dies. This is where she is moved and her body is arranged.

Phase 5: The ransom note is written.

Phase 6: This is the time period between the ransom note and the 911 call.

Phase 7: The 911 call.

Phase 8: The police arrive and the rest of the morning.

As for John's fibers, I have seen people mention this a lot and using that info they throw John into the entire staging process. I would point out John could have become involved in phase 6 and that is when the fiber contamination may have occurred. Looking at phases 1 through 7, I would say phase 6 is probably the longest time period. More things could have been done with her body during this time period.

A thought I often have is that in phase 3, if you have two parents in the room, 911 is called. Two people understand the consequences of not calling 911, but one person panics and by the time we get to phase 6 and if this is when John is involved, it is too late.

But if Patsy doesn't run and get John in phase 3, why and how does she go drag him out of bed in phase 6 and say..."oh, by the way, I had a few problems last night that you should know about".

John is completely in charge and running the show in phase 8, but he makes Patsy make the 911 call. I have always taken this to be John's Pontius Pilate moment.

Albert18,
Your sequence of events appears linear 1. , 2. , 3. etc. Whilst this may be the actual sequence I have my doubts.

Phase 1: Time period right before the injury. What brought JonBenet into the presence of someone else?

JonBenet may have been in the presence of an adult(s), and in a bedroom other than her own, for the purpose of being sexually molested?

Phase 2: The head injury occurs. This lasts only seconds.

JonBenet may have been manually strangled as a consequence of being sexually molested, then or concurrently hit about the head and body, eventually causing the severe skull fracture?

Phase 3: Post head injury/pre-staging time period. This is where 911 should have been called. If Phase 1 & 2 involve just Patsy and JonBenet then you would think this is where Patsy ran and got John. It would be very interesting to know how long this phase lasts.

No need to dial 911 if you have just killed your own daughter, and if both parents were present when she was molested then both are aware of the circumstances so no need to get the other?

Phase 4: This is where JonBenet dies. This is where she is moved and her body is arranged.

JonBenet is no longer breathing, her spasms and the flow of mucus from her mouth and nostrils has subsided.

At this point a preliminary staging is undertaken which includes a crime-scene cleanup, e.g. changing of sheets, remaking the bed etc.

JonBenet is re-dressed to suit this scenario, and say placed into her own bed wearing her red-turtleneck to hide her neck injuries, along with having her hair restyled to suit her normal routine?

Phase 5: The ransom note is written.

5a The ransom note is authored, since the details must coincide with the circumstances of her corpse, which may have been intended to have been dumped.

5b JonBenet's corpse is relocated to the basement, re-dressed yet again, e.g. removal of JonBenet's size-6 underwear etc, along with the application of the garrote etc.

Phase 6: This is the time period between the ransom note and the 911 call.

Which as per above may include a revised staging and John or/and Patsy walking around the house looking for any stray forensic evidence, possibly using the flashlight to illuminate the dark corners, before wiping it down and placing it in the kitchen?

Phase 7: The 911 call.

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, staged to imply JonBenet was killed there, which may have been a revision of the ransom-note staging, since JonBenet was never kidnapped?

That is there was likely at least two different crime-scene stagings in different parts of the house and potentially three e.g.

1. preliminary staging.
2. ransom note staging.
3. wine-cellar staging.

That is 1. is undertaken as a precautionary measure, 2. is the solution explaining her death, after being dumped outdoors, and 3. is the revised staging after nobody wishes to dump her corpse outdoors.

All these 3 stagings have forensic evidence linking them, e.g wiping JonBenet down tells you this was not important in a prior staging, hair-ties on the floor may link to another staging etc, removal of her size-6 underwear, or re-dressing in size-12, ignoring her urine-soaked longjohns, all suggest what was regarded as of importance to include or exclude.

I would speculate that John and Patsy argued over the dumping of JonBenet's corpse, which led to the abandonment of the ransom-note scenario in favor of a bedtime abduction to the wine-cellar, this is implicit in her barbie-nightgown being discovered in the same location as her corpse.

Which may indirectly suggest she was to be dumped in her day-clothes to suit the circumstances of the ransom-note?



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[JMO8778]

JonBenet may have been in the presence of an adult(s), and in a bedroom other than her own, for the purpose of being sexually molested?

with JR trying to account for his fiber evidence,I think she was in her own room.

JonBenet may have been manually strangled as a consequence of being sexually molested, then or concurrently hit about the head and body, eventually causing the severe skull fracture?

I agree,it was said in ST's book that manual strangulation occured first.

No need to dial 911 if you have just killed your own daughter, and if both parents were present when she was molested then both are aware of the circumstances so no need to get the other?

I think that's possible,if PR did it then it would seem much more likely a scenerio..I'm saying I think it was likely something more than toilet rage.

At this point a preliminary staging is undertaken which includes a crime-scene cleanup, e.g. changing of sheets, remaking the bed etc.

I think that's likely,but what evidence ,if any,do you think is left from that on JB,besides her clothing?

JonBenet is re-dressed to suit this scenario, and say placed into her own bed wearing her red-turtleneck to hide her neck injuries, along with having her hair restyled to suit her normal routine?

PR did say at first that she went to bed in the red shirt.How would this be normal,other than she was predressed for the trip the next day?

I would speculate that John and Patsy argued over the dumping of JonBenet's corpse, which led to the abandonment of the ransom-note scenario in favor of a bedtime abduction to the wine-cellar, this is implicit in her barbie-nightgown being discovered in the same location as her corpse.

I think so as well,but they ran out of time to write another note,and this time decided to go ahead and call LE,since they weren't going to place her outside, and so therefore didn't need the extra time.

Which may indirectly suggest she was to be dumped in her day-clothes to suit the circumstances of the ransom-note?



.

you're saying the note wasn't written to imply she'd been removed from her bed?where would she have been taken from,in that case?

 

[rashomon]

I agree,it was said in ST's book that manual strangulation occured first.

This was Dr. Spitzs theroy, but the autpsy report says nothing about manual strangulation. Wouldn't manual stangualtion have left far more marks than a mere abrasion on the neck which could easily have come from adjusting the cord?
Dr. Meyer verbatim lists ligature strangulation in his final diagnosis. and when he states 'asphyxia from strangulation 'as the cause of death, it is obvious that this refers to the ligature strangulation.
BTW, on reading the portion of the autopsy report about the neck, it makes one wonder if JonBenet was strangled at all: for no damage whatsoever is listed there:

Neck: Dissection of the neck is performed after removal of the thoracoabdominal organs and the brain. The anterior strap musculature of the neck is serially dissected. Multiple sections of the sternocleidomastoid muscle disclose no hemorrhages. Sections of the remainder of the strap musculature of the neck disclose no evidence of hemorrhage. Examination of the thyroid cartilage, cricoid cartilage and hyoid bone disclose not evidence of fracture of hemorrhage. Multiple cross sections of the tongue disclose no hemorrhage or traumatic injury. The thyroid gland weights 2 gm and is normal in appearance. Cut sections are finely lobular and red-tan. The trachea and larynx are lined by smooth pink-tan mucosa without intrinsic abnormalities.

It seems that the only signs of asphyxia were the petechiae found around the ligature, in her eyes and the few found in her lungs.
I believe the cord was tied around JB's neck when she was already in a deep coma, and that here was not a brutal garroting to death. A knot was tied and this cut of the rest of the oxygen supply to the child which was already nearing death from the head blow.

 

[UKGuy]

This was Dr. Spitzs theroy, but the autpsy report says nothing about manual strangulation. Wouldn't manual stangualtion have left far more marks than a mere abrasion on the neck which could easily have come from adjusting the cord?
Dr. Meyer verbatim lists ligature strangulation in his final diagnosis. and when he states 'asphyxia from strangulation 'as the cause of death, it is obvious that this refers to the ligature strangulation.
BTW, on reading the portion of the autopsy report about the neck, it makes one wonder if JonBenet was strangled at all: for no damage whatsoever is listed there:

Neck: Dissection of the neck is performed after removal of the thoracoabdominal organs and the brain. The anterior strap musculature of the neck is serially dissected. Multiple sections of the sternocleidomastoid muscle disclose no hemorrhages. Sections of the remainder of the strap musculature of the neck disclose no evidence of hemorrhage. Examination of the thyroid cartilage, cricoid cartilage and hyoid bone disclose not evidence of fracture of hemorrhage. Multiple cross sections of the tongue disclose no hemorrhage or traumatic injury. The thyroid gland weights 2 gm and is normal in appearance. Cut sections are finely lobular and red-tan. The trachea and larynx are lined by smooth pink-tan mucosa without intrinsic abnormalities.

It seems that the only signs of asphyxia were the petechiae found around the ligature, in her eyes and the few found in her lungs.
I believe the cord was tied around JB's neck when she was already in a deep coma, and that here was not a brutal garroting to death. A knot was tied and this cut of the rest of the oxygen supply to the child which was already nearing death from the head blow.

rashomon,

Dr. Meyer verbatim lists ligature strangulation in his final diagnosis. and when he states 'asphyxia from strangulation 'as the cause of death, it is obvious that this refers to the ligature strangulation.

Its not obvious, asphyxia can be the result of either a manual, ligature or other methods, both may be being cited here, or the ligature is being discounted as the final cause of death?

Without all the staging in the case I would be inclined to accept your interpretation, but I doubt Coroner Meyer was fooled by the staging, so tailored a neutral autopsy report to avoid giving too much away.

Consider his remarks on birefringement material, why did he not just say consistent with the refractive index of the paintbrush etc?


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[UKGuy]

with JR trying to account for his fiber evidence,I think she was in her own room.

Or his, with patsy sleeping in the spare bedroom?

I agree,it was said in ST's book that manual strangulation occured first.




I think that's possible,if PR did it then it would seem much more likely a scenerio..I'm saying I think it was likely something more than toilet rage.




I think that's likely,but what evidence ,if any,do you think is left from that on JB,besides her clothing?



PR did say at first that she went to bed in the red shirt.How would this be normal,other than she was predressed for the trip the next day?





I think so as well,but they ran out of time to write another note,and this time decided to go ahead and call LE,since they weren't going to place her outside, and so therefore didn't need the extra time.





you're saying the note wasn't written to imply she'd been removed from her bed?where would she have been taken from,in that case?

JMO8778

with JR trying to account for his fiber evidence,I think she was in her own room.

Or his, with patsy sleeping in the spare bedroom?

I agree,it was said in ST's book that manual strangulation occured first.

I reckon she was manually strangled, compare her neck abrasions with those along the ligature, and its obvious some manual pressure was applied, it need not have killed her outright, but along with her head injuries, the intention is imo lethal force?

I think that's possible,if PR did it then it would seem much more likely a scenerio..I'm saying I think it was likely something more than toilet rage.

Personally and wrt the forensic evidence I reckon we can discount any Toilet Rage theory.

I think that's likely,but what evidence ,if any,do you think is left from that on JB,besides her clothing?

Ah but was she wearing any clothing, forensic evidence such as semen, blood, and fiber traces linking to other people?

PR did say at first that she went to bed in the red shirt.How would this be normal,other than she was predressed for the trip the next day?

What I meant by normal is JonBenet having her hair done up in ponytails, Patsy mentioned this as routine, either to coincide with her staged restyled hair, or to add credence to it?

you're saying the note wasn't written to imply she'd been removed from her bed?where would she have been taken from,in that case?

Yes, exactly, otherwise the barbie-gown is redundant, and all the talk of the red-turtleneck must seem like, Patsy, why are you telling us this stuff about the red-turtleneck, where does it all factor in?

That is as we know JonBenet was discovered wearing her white gap top, the one she wore to the whites, so as a kiss 1st step we could assume she never removed it since arriving home, but that her clothes beneath her waist were removed to facilitate a sexual assault?

So in the preliminary staging a pair of trousers/pants may have been placed back on her, remember those pants on the bathroom floor?

If you accept that the ransom note staging precedes that of the wine-cellar staging then if the intention of the ransom-note staging was to be an abduction from her bed then she would have been dressed accordingly, but by the time of the revised staging in the wine-cellar she is still partially wearing her day-clothes, and its only now that a bedtime item appears?


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[Solace]

JMO8778

Or his, with patsy sleeping in the spare bedroom?


I reckon she was manually strangled, compare her neck abrasions with those along the ligature, and its obvious some manual pressure was applied, it need not have killed her outright, but along with her head injuries, the intention is imo lethal force?


Personally and wrt the forensic evidence I reckon we can discount any Toilet Rage theory.


Ah but was she wearing any clothing, forensic evidence such as semen, blood, and fiber traces linking to other people?


What I meant by normal is JonBenet having her hair done up in ponytails, Patsy mentioned this as routine, either to coincide with her staged restyled hair, or to add credence to it?




Yes, exactly, otherwise the barbie-gown is redundant, and all the talk of the red-turtleneck must seem like, Patsy, why are you telling us this stuff about the red-turtleneck, where does it all factor in?

That is as we know JonBenet was discovered wearing her white gap top, the one she wore to the whites, so as a kiss 1st step we could assume she never removed it since arriving home, but that her clothes beneath her waist were removed to facilitate a sexual assault?

So in the preliminary staging a pair of trousers/pants may have been placed back on her, remember those pants on the bathroom floor?

If you accept that the ransom note staging precedes that of the wine-cellar staging then if the intention of the ransom-note staging was to be an abduction from her bed then she would have been dressed accordingly, but by the time of the revised staging in the wine-cellar she is still partially wearing her day-clothes, and its only now that a bedtime item appears?


.

Keep this up and this case will never be solved. You have got Patsy and John dressing and redressing and changing her hair ad nauseum. Did not happen. Things were fine at the White's party. Something went wrong went they got home. They all say she was up and then changed the story. Patsy denies the pineapple was put there by her, but her prints are on the bowl. Patsy denies she saw the hand on her heart after being adamant that she did see it there. Patsy had "stressers" that John Douglas says in his book point to a rage murder - of course he changes this theory when he is hired by the Ramseys and by the way he said he was hired to find out if John did the killing not Patsy.

Usually, 99% of the time, a murder scene is what it presents itself as. It is that 1% that changes things. But 99% of the time we can glean from the murder scene what happened. Rage happened that night with a very exhausted Patsy, who more than likely ingested wine along with her medication and "lost it" and a 40 pound child was killed. Does not take much to do it. She was pulled out of that bed by a very angry person and Patsy was in no mood to mess around with a child who is giving her a hard time. She had been up for 15 hours, wrapping presents, opening presents, making breakfast, playing with JonBenet, etc. IT WAS A LONNNNNG day. She is exhausted and a StageIV ovarian cancer surviver. The woman is tired. I am tired just thinking about it. And if she had her two glasses of wine along with xanax, she is a great candidate for rage.

She gave her pineapple and that we know. She is lying about it and that we know. She wants JonBenet in bed. She wants no questions asked about her being up. They lie about Burke being awake that morning. They do not want the police questioning him that morning. They make sure he is gone. The police do not get another chance to question Burke until a year later?

Maybe she did not even make it to bed. It is quite possible that an argument ensued when Patsy was putting her to bed. We are not sure of molestation. That is a theory that has come about, but there is not proof. Some of the proof being offered I agree lends itself to a molestation theory, but there could be something else going on also - namely, daily cleanings with corporal punishment involved. She had an ongoing infection, which was not healing more than likely from the damp underwear and the douching that was killing natural fluids that help heal. So lets try at least to look at some of the obvious before saying that it is possible that multiple adults could have been involved in the molestation. Credibility goes out the door with that.

 

[JMO8778]

Think about it...every other woman that has had either their child murdered, or the child is missing...that has been on tv....looks like h*ll. They have been crying, their eyes are all swollen and puffy...and they are without makeup. Who in the world would think about applying makeup at a time like this? (And again, in Patsy's case...it was a TON). My child has just been murdered...or kidnapped...and before going on camera to either beg for help in finding her killer, OR beg for her safe return....I am going to say..."OH wait....before I go on camera...I HAVE to look my best. Mr. Cameraman..I will be right back, I need to put on some makeup, before I go on camera for all the world to see me. I need to look my best....I will be right back". YEAH RIGHT!!! I really and truly think that her whole grieving thing was faked....she was just acting...because she wanted to look NOT guilty...AND wanted sympathy. Remember, the Ramsey's just wanted to move on with their lives....forget all about their dead daughter...who was died at 6 years old, and never even got to have a life of her own. It was all about THEM...John and Patsy. IMO

she looked pretty darn good,makeup perfect and didn't seem to be concerned about mascara running down her face,seeing as she was wearing it.I think she had confidence in her ability to control the crying,meaning it was all acting anyway.

 

[JMO8778]

Yep, Patsy wanted to be the center of attention....as evident by the way she dressed for JB's funeral (comparing herself to Jackie Kennedy!)...and acted at the funeral....kneeling before JB's casket. On the videos that I have seen of the Ramsey's either going or coming from the funeral....Patsy is all crying and acting dramatic (she was SUCH a fantastic actress...she should have won an Academy Award!)...and then she went to cross the street, a car stopped to let them cross...and she smiles and waves to the person in the car. Maybe I am reading way more into this, than there really should be, but I just thought it was odd...and it caught my attention. That, and her three tons of makeup that she was wearing during her first tv interview after JB's death...she looked like she was wearing a mask.....and I remember thinking...."look at all that makeup...she looks like Tammy Faye Baker....how could anyone that just had their child murdered and the killer was still out there....be ABLE to put on makeup at ALL, much less a ton of it? " I also remember thinking...that if MY child had been murdered, the LAST thing on my mind would be wearing makeup and getting all gussied up for the camera. I would be a complete basket case, with people having to hold me up....how would I ever be able to tackle putting on tons of makeup? And why in the world would I want to? Unless, of course....I was a drama queen...and an actress....like Patsy Ramsey. She played the grieving mother of a dead beauty queen, for all that it was worth. They should have buried HER with an OSCAR. IMO

and she had that Lazarus line PLANNED,IMO.that's why she didn't get up when FW yelled for an ambulance...she was waiting for JB to be placed on the floor first,so she could hollar out her planned hollywood acting line,and appear sooooo dramatic and hurt!
See,all of that is why I think they didn't go through with putting JB outside of the house...PR dressing up like JK,kneeling at the coffin,dressing JB as a beauty queen for the world..I think she ate that all up,I really do.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778

Or his, with patsy sleeping in the spare bedroom?


.

possibly,but in DOI,JR seems to be trying specifically to be accounting for his underwear fibers in JB's room,as well as possibly his clothes fibers,as he says he grabbed them,and I can't dismiss that easily,altho that doesn't necessarily mean he was there the night before,in her room,undressed.but it seems a pretty good guess that he was..so therefore,maybe none of them,except BR,made it to bed that night,or at least not to sleep.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778




I reckon she was manually strangled, compare her neck abrasions with those along the ligature, and its obvious some manual pressure was applied, it need not have killed her outright, but along with her head injuries, the intention is imo lethal force?

or at least at the hands of a very angry person.I can't discount Dr Spitz saying the abrasions were the perp's knuckles,from manual strangulation being applied around her neck.

Ah but was she wearing any clothing, forensic evidence such as semen, blood, and fiber traces linking to other people?

I think her underwear may have 'disappeared' for that reason.

What I meant by normal is JonBenet having her hair done up in ponytails, Patsy mentioned this as routine, either to coincide with her staged restyled hair, or to add credence to it

I think her hair was restyled to help hide the head wound(from the other parent,LE,or both?)..I don't know if someone just wasn't thinking in that moment or what,perhaps thinking LE would just presume cause of death as strangulation.
I think 3 cover ups in the staging occured: 1- hair restyled to cover head wound,2- ligature strangling to cover manual strangulation,and 3-faked sexual assault to cover past sexual abuse.

Yes, exactly, otherwise the barbie-gown is redundant, and all the talk of the red-turtleneck must seem like, Patsy, why are you telling us this stuff about the red-turtleneck, where does it all factor in?

That is as we know JonBenet was discovered wearing her white gap top, the one she wore to the whites, so as a kiss 1st step we could assume she never removed it since arriving home, but that her clothes beneath her waist were removed to facilitate a sexual assault?

could be

So in the preliminary staging a pair of trousers/pants may have been placed back on her, remember those pants on the bathroom floor?

yes,but the underwear was dirty.they wouldnt have put that back on her that way, IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

possibly,but in DOI,JR seems to be trying specifically to be accounting for his underwear fibers in JB's room,as well as possibly his clothes fibers,as he says he grabbed them,and I can't dismiss that easily,altho that doesn't necessarily mean he was there the night before,in her room,undressed.but it seems a pretty good guess that he was..so therefore,maybe none of them,except BR,made it to bed that night,or at least not to sleep.

JMO8778,

Yes its possible, he was likely in some room with JonBenet, and if Patsy was not present, then she was colluding, a flight next day, and JonBenet is allowed to stay up for pineapple snacks, and sadly to be sexually molested, she would know where Jonbenet was, her pageant princess!


.

 

[UKGuy]

or at least at the hands of a very angry person.I can't discount Dr Spitz saying the abrasions were the perp's knuckles,from manual strangulation being applied around her neck.




I think her underwear may have 'disappeared' for that reason.


I think her hair was restyled to help hide the head wound(from the other parent,LE,or both?)..I don't know if someone just wasn't thinking in that moment or what,perhaps thinking LE would just presume cause of death as strangulation.
I think 3 cover ups in the staging occured: 1- hair restyled to cover head wound,2- ligature strangling to cover manual strangulation,and 3-faked sexual assault to cover past sexual abuse.



could be

yes,but the underwear was dirty.they wouldnt have put that back on her that way, IMO.

JMO8778,

or at least at the hands of a very angry person.I can't discount Dr Spitz saying the abrasions were the perp's knuckles,from manual strangulation being applied around her neck.

In the case of the death of cricket coach Bob Woolmer, the police are now speculating that he was asphyxiated manually, but with the use of a towel or some cloth, between the killers hands and his neck. Since there were few abrasions on his neck. The speculation arises since the police are witholding some evidence.

Since JonBenet's lower neck abrasions are not circumferential then some kind of manual strangulation seems more probable, even the abrasions reflect those of a manual strangualtion, e.g on the back of her neck there is no lower circumferential markings.

yes,but the underwear was dirty.they wouldnt have put that back on her that way, IMO.

Why not its a perfect masking device, and explains why they are lying on the bathroom floor e.g. removed to make way for the bedtime abduction scenario, if not those pants then some others, something to match her red-turtleneck?

I reckon both parents were aware of the circumstances of JonBenet's death, the collusion in her sexual abuse led them both to a staged cover up, the other explanation is BlueCrab's BDI which is a variation on the same theme.


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,



In the case of the death of cricket coach Bob Woolmer, the police are now speculating that he was asphyxiated manually, but with the use of a towel or some cloth, between the killers hands and his neck. Since there were few abrasions on his neck. The speculation arises since the police are witholding some evidence.

Since JonBenet's lower neck abrasions are not circumferential then some kind of manual strangulation seems more probable, even the abrasions reflect those of a manual strangualtion, e.g on the back of her neck there is no lower circumferential markings.

http://www.geocities.com/area51/nebula/9337/cord.html

I went looking and found this.I think it's possible she was strangled with the red shirt,or a scarf..rem. JR put one on JB in her casket,as his last gift to her,one he claimed was 'new'.But was it really? In case JB was ever exhumed...was he trying to account for something with that action,and or with the scarf?

 

[UKGuy]

http://www.geocities.com/area51/nebula/9337/cord.html

I went looking and found this.I think it's possible she was strangled with the red shirt,or a scarf..rem. JR put one on JB in her casket,as his last gift to her,one he claimed was 'new'.But was it really? In case JB was ever exhumed...was he trying to account for something with that action,and or with the scarf?

JMO8778,

Yes that is very good article, well composed, and adds to the assumption that JonBenet was manually strangled.