2 Things that have me wondering

[Jayelles]

There are a few things which make me stay on the fence with regard to the Ramseys.

One is the contradiction in what John Ramsey says and what he did.

He said:-

John - "We had no choice. I mean, I would have gone mad sitting there hoping someone would call. We had to do something. I was ready to call out the Russian Army, the National Guard. Close the airport, let's close, cordon off the city. Those are the kinds of thoughts that were going through my head and we had to get the police involved to do that."

He also said that he went down to the basement and that he was specifically looking for an entry point where an intruder could have come in. Whilst in the basement, he found an open window with a hard Samsonite suitcase positioned under it - and he regarded this as unusual. However, instead of reporting it so that it could be tested for fingerprints etc - what did he do? He closed the window and didn't tell anyone about it till much later. He also claims to have spied strange vehicles parked nearby whilst looking through binoculars from a window - yet despite noting these strange vehicles and despite the fact that they could have been used by the kidnappers and yielded important forensic evidence which could have led to their capture and possibly even the recovery of his daughter.... he kept the information to himself.

Lou Smit asked him if the open window + suitcase wasn't a "trigger" and John replied "Yeah" - yet incomprehensibly, despite claiming that he was on a specific mission to find out how these kidnappers had gained entry to his home, John failed to report his find saying that he was in a "state of disbelief".

I simply cannot understand this. He says he wanted to close airports, call the National Guard - yet he failed to report what could have been crucial evidence and chose instead to close the possible entry point and stay quiet about it.

 

[UKGuy]

There are a few things which make me stay on the fence with regard to the Ramseys.

One is the contradiction in what John Ramsey says and what he did.

He said:-



He also said that he went down to the basement and that he was specifically looking for an entry point where an intruder could have come in. Whilst in the basement, he found an open window with a hard Samsonite suitcase positioned under it - and he regarded this as unusual. However, instead of reporting it so that it could be tested for fingerprints etc - what did he do? He closed the window and didn't tell anyone about it till much later. He also claims to have spied strange vehicles parked nearby whilst looking through binoculars from a window - yet despite noting these strange vehicles and despite the fact that they could have been used by the kidnappers and yielded important forensic evidence which could have led to their capture and possibly even the recovery of his daughter.... he kept the information to himself.

Lou Smit asked him if the open window + suitcase wasn't a "trigger" and John replied "Yeah" - yet incomprehensibly, despite claiming that he was on a specific mission to find out how these kidnappers had gained entry to his home, John failed to report his find saying that he was in a "state of disbelief".

I simply cannot understand this. He says he wanted to close airports, call the National Guard - yet he failed to report what could have been crucial evidence and chose instead to close the possible entry point and stay quiet about it.

Jayelles,

Thats if what John says is correct, and not merely an attempt via Lou Smit to embroider and invent an intruder?

Both JonBenet's parents were involved in the staging, whether one or both were present when she was killed is an open question, the forensic evidence links both to JonBenet's corpse.

JonBenet's death is a sexual homicide, her death is a faite accompli, nothing can hide that but her sexual assault was masked, there is evidence of prior chronic sexual molestation, imo the motivating factor behind her death is sexual, ie not accidental.

One or both parents were sexually molesting JonBenet, this is the rationale for a co-ordinated staging, otherwise either non-implicated parent could simply point the finger at the guilty one.

imo it seems more probable that Patsy was also abusing JonBenet.



.

 

[Jayelles]

I paraphrased John's 1998 interview. Here's my whole post from CTV:-

Here Lou asks John about his trip to the basement:-



Quote:
24 LOU SMIT: I remember in your report. Did you

25 ever go down to the basement?

0152

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I went.

2 LOU SMIT: Who was with you at that time?

3 JOHN RAMSEY: I was by myself. I was. I had

4 gone down the basement. I went in the --

5 LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a

6 little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?
John Ramsey describes going into the basement and moving a chair out of the road to access one of the rooms:-



Quote:
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went

8 in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.

9 We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a

10 chair that was in front of the door. Some old

11 things. I moved the chair, went into this room,

He describes finding a window open "a crack".



Quote:
12 went back in here. This window was open, maybe

13 that far.

14 LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far

15 were

16 you? An inch?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It

18 was cracked open.
19 LOU SMIT: Which window?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the little one.

21 There's three windows across here, as I recall. I

22 think it was the middle one. It was that was

23 broken. There was pane class broken out of it,

24 which I attributed to breaking myself.

25 LOU SMIT: People go into that basement?

0153
John Ramsey then describes finding a hard samsonite suitcase positioned under the window and says he closed the window:-



Quote:
1 JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there

2 was

3 a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.

4 LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was

5 positioned?

6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think

7 the handle was on top. It was directly under the

8 window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I

9 don't know why, but I closed it. And then --

10 LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock

11 it or close it?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little

13 latch on it.

14 LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am

16 sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I
Now the puzzling bit. John Ramsey says that he was looking to see how the intruder might have gotten in. Note - he claims he was specifically looking to see how the intruder might have gotten in. He finds an open window with a hard suitcase under it - which according to John was unusual.....and yet when he found this unusually placed suitcase under an open window..... he simply closed the window and failed to mention it to anyone.



Quote:
17 think at that point I still was trying to figure

18 out how they'd get in the house.

Lou questions whether his find in the basement didn't "trigger" (something) and John says "yeah" but then attributes his failure to alert (Bullmoose - this is a verb) anyone to his find - which could have yielded vital forensic evidence leading to the capture of his daughter's "kidnappers" (maybe even gotten her back alive) -to his "state of disbelief".


Quote:
19 LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your

20 (INAUDIBLE).
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.

22 LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean,

24 part of what is going on you're in such a state of

25 disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know,

0154

1 the window had been broken out. And you say hah,

2 that's it. But it was a window that I had used to

3 get into the house before. It was cracked and open

4 a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.

5 Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in

6 because that basement could get real hot in

7 winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought

8 about it, I thought it was more of an alarming

9 situation how it struck me at the time. It was

10 still sort of explainable to me that it could have

11 been left open.
12 And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have

13 been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I

14 remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all

15 the way back there and put it against the window.

I personally find this extraordinary and it's clear to me that it raised questions for Lou Smit too. Again - it isn't evidence that the Ramseys did anything but I think it's one of the things which Lou Smit described as:-


Quote:
1 went with you. But they initially focused on you

2 because of certain things that happened in the

3 house and that they found. And you were in the

4 house. So, as a detective, I myself would have

5 probably have done that.
So instead of going back upstairs and reporting his find to investigators and saying "Look, this might be nothing, but there's an open basement window with a hard suitcase sitting under it which shouldn't be there - could you PLEASE get your guys to check it out?".... John Ramsey decided to close the window and keep his discovery to himself.

 

[JMO8778]

He also said that he went down to the basement and that he was specifically looking for an entry point where an intruder could have come in. Whilst in the basement, he found an open window with a hard Samsonite suitcase positioned under it - and he regarded this as unusual. However, instead of reporting it so that it could be tested for fingerprints etc - what did he do? He closed the window and didn't tell anyone about it till much later. He also claims to have spied strange vehicles parked nearby whilst looking through binoculars from a window - yet despite noting these strange vehicles and despite the fact that they could have been used by the kidnappers and yielded important forensic evidence which could have led to their capture and possibly even the recovery of his daughter.... he kept the information to himself.

It seems he is trying to account for certain things,like his fingerprints being on the window.
Is it possible there was a vehicle(yet an unsuspicious one to him) there,which was someone there who served a purpose for JR,ie-to take away evidence,or to be ready to take him away to a nearby airport? Is he just making that up,to account for some time he went missing,or was there possibly a vehicle there?

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Yes seems curious, even counter intuitive, if that really is a prusik knot and not a knot that looks like one, and those are JR's fibers on JonBenet's genitals, then I would revise my theory to strongly include a prior staging!

If you look at the RN,with the thought in mind that they had previously planned to dispose of JB's body outside somewhere,I think that's a possibility.B/c I think the RN reads with a plan in mind to dispose of her outside the home somewhere.Breaking it down,here are my thoughts on some of the lines in the RN.To start with:

1-Listen carefully !
(I think JR dicated this to her,from the very beginning of it,otherwise it would likely read 'read this carefully' instead.)

2-I will call you between 8 and 10am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.

(I think this means the 27th,so as to give the R's a whole day of time to carry out their plans).

3-The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.

(Yes,it is a woman's touch,however,in thinking about it,(altho that line likely came from PR),I think it was put in to account for TIME..ie-an excuse for why they stayed home and didn't go anywhere on the 26th.ie-they had the trip to Mi they had to account for getting out of)

4-If we monitor you getting the money early,we might call you to arrange an earlier delivery and hence a earlier pick-up of your daughter.

(Again,TIME is the factor here,along with a reason as to WHY JR could have been seen leaving the house early..that same day,not the 27th.I think it was then that he was going to dispose of the body..not 'get the money early',and he had to account for that.)

and 5- ..the biggest reason I think they planned to originally dispose of her outside the home..

YOU WILL ALSO BE DENIED HER REMAINS FOR PROPER BURIEL.

..ie-by getting rid of her body,it appears the KN's have done just that..denied them the remains of her body.


SO,what do the R's do to account for the the 'KN's' killing JB? Exactly what the note says NOT to do...call the police !!

Altho I do think they originally hadn't planned to call them so soon.I suspect a fear of being caught with her dead body in the car was too great,so they revised the plan and decided to call that morning instead.

Any thoughts out there?

 

[Toltec]

I for one do not for one minute believe that the Ramsey's would get rid of their precious daughter's body. Let's not forget that JonBenet was very much loved. Having said that, the head blow was an act of rage committed by Patsy and self-preservation led to this ridiculous kidnapping scenario.

Their dead child was wrapped in a blanket....her head and feet exposed. If this child was to leave the home, John or Patsy would have dressed her more appropriately. (I know what you're thinking...dead children do not get cold.) She was wrapped for the trip to the wine cellar.

 

[JMO8778]

I for one do not for one minute believe that the Ramsey's would get rid of their precious daughter's body. Let's not forget that JonBenet was very much loved. Having said that, the head blow was an act of rage committed by Patsy and self-preservation led to this ridiculous kidnapping scenario.

Their dead child was wrapped in a blanket....her head and feet exposed. If this child was to leave the home, John or Patsy would have dressed her more appropriately. (I know what you're thinking...dead children do not get cold.) She was wrapped for the trip to the wine cellar.

I think in a moment of panic,tho,they planned to do just that.It fits the RN perfectly,IMO.But they couldn't go thru with it in the end.Never underestimate panic!

 

[UKGuy]

I for one do not for one minute believe that the Ramsey's would get rid of their precious daughter's body. Let's not forget that JonBenet was very much loved. Having said that, the head blow was an act of rage committed by Patsy and self-preservation led to this ridiculous kidnapping scenario.

Their dead child was wrapped in a blanket....her head and feet exposed. If this child was to leave the home, John or Patsy would have dressed her more appropriately. (I know what you're thinking...dead children do not get cold.) She was wrapped for the trip to the wine cellar.

Toltec,

Let's not forget that JonBenet was very much loved.

Was she really, chronically sexually abused, and made to particpate in pageants, then whacked on the head, asphyxiated then dumped in wine-cellar where she was further violated!

After all that what makes you think her parents cared very much about her corpse, dont forget JR was ready to flee Boulder early that morning, and they never visited JonBenet in the mortuary either, nice, caring parents?


,

 

[UKGuy]

If you look at the RN,with the thought in mind that they had previously planned to dispose of JB's body outside somewhere,I think that's a possibility.B/c I think the RN reads with a plan in mind to dispose of her outside the home somewhere.Breaking it down,here are my thoughts on some of the lines in the RN.To start with:

1-Listen carefully !
(I think JR dicated this to her,from the very beginning of it,otherwise it would likely read 'read this carefully' instead.)

2-I will call you between 8 and 10am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.

(I think this means the 27th,so as to give the R's a whole day of time to carry out their plans).

3-The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.

(Yes,it is a woman's touch,however,in thinking about it,(altho that line likely came from PR),I think it was put in to account for TIME..ie-an excuse for why they stayed home and didn't go anywhere on the 26th.ie-they had the trip to Mi they had to account for getting out of)

4-If we monitor you getting the money early,we might call you to arrange an earlier delivery and hence a earlier pick-up of your daughter.

(Again,TIME is the factor here,along with a reason as to WHY JR could have been seen leaving the house early..that same day,not the 27th.I think it was then that he was going to dispose of the body..not 'get the money early',and he had to account for that.)

and 5- ..the biggest reason I think they planned to originally dispose of her outside the home..

YOU WILL ALSO BE DENIED HER REMAINS FOR PROPER BURIEL.

..ie-by getting rid of her body,it appears the KN's have done just that..denied them the remains of her body.


SO,what do the R's do to account for the the 'KN's' killing JB? Exactly what the note says NOT to do...call the police !!

Altho I do think they originally hadn't planned to call them so soon.I suspect a fear of being caught with her dead body in the car was too great,so they revised the plan and decided to call that morning instead.

Any thoughts out there?

JMO8778,

Its likely there was a plan to dump JonBenet outdoors, but this should have still meant her having to be redressed in bed-clothes, this aspect of her death is the one for which there has been least speculation since it does not fit into most peoples theories.

Employing kiss principles:
1. John killed JonBenet fabricated some kind of staging.
2. Patsy decided to revise it to what it became.

Speculating:
3. There was an intermediate stage?
4. Alternately
1. Patsy killed JonBenet and fabricated some kind of staging.
2. John decided to revise it to what it became.


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Its likely there was a plan to dump JonBenet outdoors, but this should have still meant her having to be redressed in bed-clothes, this aspect of her death is the one for which there has been least speculation since it does not fit into most peoples theories.

Employing kiss principles:
1. John killed JonBenet fabricated some kind of staging.
2. Patsy decided to revise it to what it became.

Speculating:
3. There was an intermediate stage?
4. Alternately
1. Patsy killed JonBenet and fabricated some kind of staging.
2. John decided to revise it to what it became.


.

sure,anything's possible(other than intruder,too much evidence to even consider that).which do you consider the most likely scenerio?

but,she was 1/2 dressed in bedclothes..that much I don't understand.what kind of staging likely occured first?

I suspect they wrote the RN note first,then had planned to change her to bedclothes,but..maybe rigor had set in by then?so they couldn't change her again?

 

[JMO8778]

Toltec,

Was she really, chronically sexually abused, and made to particpate in pageants, then whacked on the head, asphyxiated then dumped in wine-cellar where she was further violated!

After all that what makes you think her parents cared very much about her corpse, dont forget JR was ready to flee Boulder early that morning, and they never visited JonBenet in the mortuary either, nice, caring parents?


,

'

they loved her so much they killed her.
the poor child was never anything but used by her parents for their own twisted desires.

 

[Ames]

Toltec,

Was she really, chronically sexually abused, and made to particpate in pageants, then whacked on the head, asphyxiated then dumped in wine-cellar where she was further violated!

After all that what makes you think her parents cared very much about her corpse, dont forget JR was ready to flee Boulder early that morning, and they never visited JonBenet in the mortuary either, nice, caring parents?


,

Exactly! There are many things about the Ramsey's that suggest that they really didn't care about their daughter. Not really....she was just a trophy child to them. IMO

 

[JMO8778]

Exactly! There are many things about the Ramsey's that suggest that they really didn't care about their daughter. Not really....she was just a trophy child to them. IMO

and she wasn't turning out to be what PR wanted her to be.

 

[BBB167893]

Try this one: Alive, JB had taken Patsy as far as she could go. But who's more sympathetic than the mother of a dead beauty queen?

 

[Ames]

Try this one: Alive, JB had taken Patsy as far as she could go. But who's more sympathetic than the mother of a dead beauty queen?

Yep, Patsy wanted to be the center of attention....as evident by the way she dressed for JB's funeral (comparing herself to Jackie Kennedy!)...and acted at the funeral....kneeling before JB's casket. On the videos that I have seen of the Ramsey's either going or coming from the funeral....Patsy is all crying and acting dramatic (she was SUCH a fantastic actress...she should have won an Academy Award!)...and then she went to cross the street, a car stopped to let them cross...and she smiles and waves to the person in the car. Maybe I am reading way more into this, than there really should be, but I just thought it was odd...and it caught my attention. That, and her three tons of makeup that she was wearing during her first tv interview after JB's death...she looked like she was wearing a mask.....and I remember thinking...."look at all that makeup...she looks like Tammy Faye Baker....how could anyone that just had their child murdered and the killer was still out there....be ABLE to put on makeup at ALL, much less a ton of it? " I also remember thinking...that if MY child had been murdered, the LAST thing on my mind would be wearing makeup and getting all gussied up for the camera. I would be a complete basket case, with people having to hold me up....how would I ever be able to tackle putting on tons of makeup? And why in the world would I want to? Unless, of course....I was a drama queen...and an actress....like Patsy Ramsey. She played the grieving mother of a dead beauty queen, for all that it was worth. They should have buried HER with an OSCAR. IMO

 

[JMO8778]

Yep, Patsy wanted to be the center of attention....as evident by the way she dressed for JB's funeral (comparing herself to Jackie Kennedy!)...and acted at the funeral....kneeling before JB's casket. On the videos that I have seen of the Ramsey's either going or coming from the funeral....Patsy is all crying and acting dramatic (she was SUCH a fantastic actress...she should have won an Academy Award!)...and then she went to cross the street, a car stopped to let them cross...and she smiles and waves to the person in the car. Maybe I am reading way more into this, than there really should be, but I just thought it was odd...and it caught my attention. That, and her three tons of makeup that she was wearing during her first tv interview after JB's death...she looked like she was wearing a mask.....and I remember thinking...."look at all that makeup...she looks like Tammy Faye Baker....how could anyone that just had their child murdered and the killer was still out there....be ABLE to put on makeup at ALL, much less a ton of it? " I also remember thinking...that if MY child had been murdered, the LAST thing on my mind would be wearing makeup and getting all gussied up for the camera. I would be a complete basket case, with people having to hold me up....how would I ever be able to tackle putting on tons of makeup? And why in the world would I want to? Unless, of course....I was a drama queen...and an actress....like Patsy Ramsey. She played the grieving mother of a dead beauty queen, for all that it was worth. They should have buried HER with an OSCAR. IMO

right on,I wondered how she was able to put on makeup as well.appearances seemed to be imprt to her.and the part where she says she doesn't rem. kneeling by the casket....oh yes she did ! she planned it that way! with the way she was so good at acting,I have to wonder if she had any real emotions at all.

 

[Ames]

right on,I wondered how she was able to put on makeup as well.appearances seemed to be imprt to her.and the part where she says she doesn't rem. kneeling by the casket....oh yes she did ! she planned it that way! with the way she was so good at acting,I have to wonder if she had any real emotions at all.

Think about it...every other woman that has had either their child murdered, or the child is missing...that has been on tv....looks like h*ll. They have been crying, their eyes are all swollen and puffy...and they are without makeup. Who in the world would think about applying makeup at a time like this? (And again, in Patsy's case...it was a TON). My child has just been murdered...or kidnapped...and before going on camera to either beg for help in finding her killer, OR beg for her safe return....I am going to say..."OH wait....before I go on camera...I HAVE to look my best. Mr. Cameraman..I will be right back, I need to put on some makeup, before I go on camera for all the world to see me. I need to look my best....I will be right back". YEAH RIGHT!!! I really and truly think that her whole grieving thing was faked....she was just acting...because she wanted to look NOT guilty...AND wanted sympathy. Remember, the Ramsey's just wanted to move on with their lives....forget all about their dead daughter...who was died at 6 years old, and never even got to have a life of her own. It was all about THEM...John and Patsy. IMO

 

[JMO8778]

Think about it...every other woman that has had either their child murdered, or the child is missing...that has been on tv....looks like h*ll. They have been crying, their eyes are all swollen and puffy...and they are without makeup. Who in the world would think about applying makeup at a time like this? (And again, in Patsy's case...it was a TON). My child has just been murdered...or kidnapped...and before going on camera to either beg for help in finding her killer, OR beg for her safe return....I am going to say..."OH wait....before I go on camera...I HAVE to look my best. Mr. Cameraman..I will be right back, I need to put on some makeup, before I go on camera for all the world to see me. I need to look my best....I will be right back". YEAH RIGHT!!! I really and truly think that her whole grieving thing was faked....she was just acting...because she wanted to look NOT guilty...AND wanted sympathy. Remember, the Ramsey's just wanted to move on with their lives....forget all about their dead daughter...who was died at 6 years old, and never even got to have a life of her own. It was all about THEM...John and Patsy. IMO

I know,that's so weird she'd even be able to apply something as fragile as mascara..it takes a good,steady hand.I stopped wearing anything for a bit after I got separated;I just didn't care.WHICH was so weird now looking back on it b/c I'm the type to not leave the house without it ! I wouldn't even go check the mail without makeup on ! And that didn't involve something nearly as devastating as death,so yes,I agree,THAT IS ODD !

 

[Ames]

I know,that's so weird she'd even be able to apply something as fragile as mascara..it takes a good,steady hand.I stopped wearing anything for a bit after I got separated;I just didn't care.WHICH was so weird now looking back on it b/c I'm the type to not leave the house without it ! I wouldn't even go check the mail without makeup on ! And that didn't involve something nearly as devastating as death,so yes,I agree,THAT IS ODD !

I would think that a person would be depressed if their child had been murdered...I mean, of course...if they didn't have anything to do with it. And speaking from experience, when a person is depressed, they don't care about how they look...that is the very least of their worries.

 

[JMO8778]

I would think that a person would be depressed if their child had been murdered...I mean, of course...if they didn't have anything to do with it. And speaking from experience, when a person is depressed, they don't care about how they look...that is the very least of their worries.

that's so true !!