Thoughts and Logic

[concernedperson]

Exactly! People are not born with a history of violence.

Oh, but it is learned my friend. Whether you choose to incorporate it in your life or are just an observer it is there.It shapes you in a way that nothing else can. I am not excusing murderors in any way, in fact, I am suggesting that people go the other way....I did and I am not particulary strong. I just use common sense and keep on trucking.

 

[Brefie]

Oh, but it is learned my friend. Whether you choose to incorporate it in your life or are just an observer it is there.It shapes you in a way that nothing else can. I am not excusing murderors in any way, in fact, I am suggesting that people go the other way....I did and I am not particulary strong. I just use common sense and keep on trucking.

I am sorry for your troubles.

However, we don't know that either Patsy or John never experienced abuse of any kind or violence for that matter. Whose to say they didn't learn it?

 

[concernedperson]

I am sorry for your troubles.

However, we don't know that either Patsy or John never experienced abuse of any kind or violence for that matter. Whose to say they didn't learn it?

Actually I think they did learn it. But incorporated it in their lives in the worst way. I cannot be without an opinion on this case. JBR was a pawn in their overall life.She is the victim not them in any way shape or form. I don't have all the answers, of course, but I will always believe them culpable. Until and when someone can prove positive that JBR didn't die by her parents hand I will still have this opinion. I will go away now.

 

[Brefie]

Actually I think they did learn it. But incorporated it in their lives in the worst way. I cannot be without an opinion on this case. JBR was a pawn in their overall life.She is the victim not them in any way shape or form. I don't have all the answers, of course, but I will always believe them culpable. Until and when someone can prove positive that JBR didn't die by her parents hand I will still have this opinion. I will go away now.

Why would you go away? Don't do that!!! STAY! LOL

I thought we were on different sides of the fence - but seems not.
I got a li'l confused.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I am of the belief that RDI. However, as I sit here right now I am trying to be openminded and just think about LOGIC... while all of these far fetched ideas roll around, and perhaps one of them is right, I tend to lean a bit more to the logical side of things. Unless a RDI, the only logical thing I can come up with is some sicko meant to kidnap her after silencing her. He then got a bit excited, brought her downstairs. Began sexually abusing her, torturing her through the garotee. Sometime, whether it was when he was bringing her downstairs or when he was down there he banged her head hard. Perhaps he dropped her on the cement. Perhaps he banged her head on a doorway. Its hard for me to believe though that such a bad injury would be caused by an accidental bang.
Also there are just so many other things that I just can't fit into the IDi theory.

If an adult female with JBR's injuries was found in the forest, its likely the police would conclude she had been sexually assaulted and murdered. Any logic flaws so far?

 

[sharpar]

Mostly all of this is blatent misinformation.
The blanket was wrapped around her "papoose style", it wasn't just "thrown over her" at all.
There is absolutely no evidence to support Lou Smit's stun gun theory. The only way that theory could have been proven to have been correct is if JonBenet's body was exhumed..
.

The representative for the stun gun mfg said no way it makes those kind of marks and on Candyrose I believe they go into great detail that the marks were the wrong distance apart. Those prongs are metal and dont dien or shorten .

 

[sharpar]

If an adult female with JBR's injuries was found in the forest, its likely the police would conclude she had been sexually assaulted and murdered. Any logic flaws so far?

The only flaw is that violent murder is seldom logical . People murder other people for a variety of reasons which makes sense to the crimminal but not to the rest of society . Even in Texas " they deserved killing " defense doesnt wash as well as it did decades ago.

People are capable of hiding serious pathology for many many years . How many times have we heard about some monster that neighbors, friends and even family saying - he was such a nice quiet man - we cant believe it .
Well the mild mannered friendly neighbor is capable of many acts of horror.
Monsters dont look like monsters that is the whole trouble of it. Not being able to grasp that a parent could do that to a child is not reason enough to assume someone else did it.

Their behavior is too baffling if they are indeed innocent . I dont think so !

 

[UKGuy]

If an adult female with JBR's injuries was found in the forest, its likely the police would conclude she had been sexually assaulted and murdered. Any logic flaws so far?

The BPD did conclude that JonBenet had been sexually assaulted and murdered. Also a panel of pediatric experts concluded that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day that she was murdered.

The BPD also found a collection of photographs with JonBenet as the main focus, some of which were taken downstairs in the basement.

IMO contrary to accepted wisdom, I do not consider wrapping JonBenet in the blanket papoose style was done by a concerned ramsey. I think she was cleaned up elsewhere, and to avoid contamination on relocation to the wine-cellar, she was wrapped in the white blanket. Once her re-dressing had been completed and she was wearing her Barbie-Gown, the blanket along with some of her other garments could be removed, then washed or relocated upstairs!

Although it may not be correct, its possible to conclude that JonBenet was the victim of sustained sexual abuse, that elements of her pageant routines were mirrored in her abuse, as her abuser photographed her. Whether her death was an accident or not, or calculated to silence her, the resulting staging is an attempt not to hide, but to obsfucate the forensic evidence of her prior sexual abuse!

 

[LinasK]

The BPD did conclude that JonBenet had been sexually assaulted and murdered. Also a panel of pediatric experts concluded that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day that she was murdered.

The BPD also found a collection of photographs with JonBenet as the main focus, some of which were taken downstairs in the basement.

Although it may not be correct, its possible to conclude that JonBenet was the victim of sustained sexual abuse, that elements of her pageant routines were mirrored in her abuse, as her abuser photographed her. Whether her death was an accident or not, or calculated to silence her, the resulting staging is an attempt not to hide, but to obsfucate the forensic evidence of her prior sexual abuse!

Thank-you UKGuy for backing up what I have been saying all along. She was sexually abused in her own household. It's more likely that John was the perpetrator rather than Burke.

 

[tipper]

Thank-you UKGuy for backing up what I have been saying all along. She was sexually abused in her own household. It's more likely that John was the perpetrator rather than Burke.

Although the FBI disagreed with BPD that there was abuse prior to the night of the murder.

I have always wondered how many doctors they interviewed before they chose their panel of peditric experts.

 

[tipper]

The only flaw is that violent murder is seldom logical . People murder other people for a variety of reasons which makes sense to the crimminal but not to the rest of society . Even in Texas " they deserved killing " defense doesnt wash as well as it did decades ago.

People are capable of hiding serious pathology for many many years . How many times have we heard about some monster that neighbors, friends and even family saying - he was such a nice quiet man - we cant believe it .
Well the mild mannered friendly neighbor is capable of many acts of horror.
Monsters dont look like monsters that is the whole trouble of it. Not being able to grasp that a parent could do that to a child is not reason enough to assume someone else did it.

Their behavior is too baffling if they are indeed innocent . I dont think so !

I can think of lots of killers that fit the mild-mannered and/or liked by his neighbors description. John List, Albert Fish, BTK, Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgeway, etc. Even Rob Marshall, Jeffery MacDonald, OJ were superficially normal. But I can't think of any who, once they were the focus of an investigation, turned out to have squeaky clean backgrounds. There were serious holes in all of them.

The Ramseys were checked six ways from Sunday and nothing showed up. Not even when the ethically challenged Globe and Enquirer tried to find dirt on them. I think if there had been any pathology being hidden it would have been dug up.

 

[LinasK]

The Ramseys were checked six ways from Sunday and nothing showed up. Not even when the ethically challenged Globe and Enquirer tried to find dirt on them. I think if there had been any pathology being hidden it would have been dug up.

I disagree, molestation/sexual abuse, even physical or verbal abuse is a dysfunctional family secret.

 

[txsvicki]

It seems to me that whoever killed JonBenet would have to be a pedophile who premeditated the torture and murder of a child and then wrote the ransom note as a cover up to throw suspicion away from himself. I think that the Ramsey's were covering something up, but would John allow such a long ransom note to be written by Patsy?

 

[UKGuy]

It seems to me that whoever killed JonBenet would have to be a pedophile who premeditated the torture and murder of a child and then wrote the ransom note as a cover up to throw suspicion away from himself. I think that the Ramsey's were covering something up, but would John allow such a long ransom note to be written by Patsy?

The ransom note was possibly part of a different staging plan, which for some reason was abandonded. BlueCrab has suggested the snow that fell that morning persuaded the Ramseys not to leave the house for fear of leaving incoming and outgoing footprints!

Could there be another reason for this change of plan, the ransom note although long and detailed serves its purpose?

One explanation, not new I expect, is that Patsy did kill JonBenet accidentally or not, then proceeded with a cover up that included the ransom note etc, whilst John was asleep upstairs.

Although John who had been allegedly sexually abusing JonBenet without Paty's knowledge, recognized that prior forensic evidence needed to be removed from the crime scene so he vetoed the ransom scenario then proceeded to cleanup and relocate JonBenet's body.

So both parents are implicated and have a sound rational for defending not only themselves but Burke!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The BPD did conclude that JonBenet had been sexually assaulted and murdered.

If you take into account only that JBR was sexually assaulted and murdered, you're actually able to draw a conclusion.

Sexual assault and murder of 6 year old girls is a crime almost exclusively comitted by a male acting alone.

Therefore, it is very likely JBR was sexually assaulted and murdered by a male acting alone.

 

[BlueCrab]

Therefore, it is very likely JBR was sexually assaulted and murdered by a male acting alone.

HOTYH,

I agree there's a good probability that JonBenet was likely murdered by a male acting alone, but there is also a high probability that a coverup, involving the entire Ramsey family and others, is being carried out.

 

[Maikai]

If an adult female with JBR's injuries was found in the forest, its likely the police would conclude she had been sexually assaulted and murdered. Any logic flaws so far?

Likewise, if the perp had gotten JBR out of the house, and she had been found along some mountain road, what conclusion would have been drawn? The police are taught if a child is found dead in a home, it's someone in the home that killed them....they look at the occupants first--BPD couldn't get past that, and part of the reason is they were publically criticised in the media. Better to blame the Ramseys for tricking them, then taking responsibility that they made mistakes. .

 

[BlueCrab]

The representative for the stun gun mfg said no way it makes those kind of marks and on Candyrose I believe they go into great detail that the marks were the wrong distance apart. Those prongs are metal and dont dien or shorten .

sharpar,

The representative from Air-Taser had a vested interest in trying to distance Air-Taser from the JonBenet murder. He flat-out misrepresented his product. They advertise their product as non-lethal, yet victims of stun gun shocks are dying regularly. Police departments all over the country who invested heavily in buying Air-Tasers are running into the problem. (I am personally not against police using stun guns, but the risks involved should not be covered up.)

IMO a stun gun had been used on JonBenet and is one of the items of evidence missing from the crime scene. The twin marks on JonBenet's back are identical to the spacing on a Taser brand stun gun. The information described in the website "The Stun Gun Myth" is erroneous. But you don't have to take my word for it. Measure the distances on the crime scene photos yourself and make your own comparisons. The distance between the twin metal prongs of a Taser and the distance between the twin marks on JonBenet's back are identical.

Moreover, the shape of the tiny rectangular burns on JonBenet are identical to the rectangular shape of the Taser's metal prongs.

Also, the slight misalignment of the twin marks on JonBenet was obviously due to the gun being pressed against JonBenet, thus slightly distorting her soft skin a fraction of a second before the trigger was pulled. Using a replica of the twin metal prongs, I successfully demonstrated this on my own arm several years ago. You can demonstrate this on your own forearm by pressing two fingernails (the middle and index fingers) hard and straight into your skin to leave twin marks on the skin; and then, several inches away do it again, only this time distort the skin with the two fingernails before pressing hard into the skin. The first mark will be in alignment and the second mark will be slightly out of alignment.

Incidentally, most medical experts who have had experience in analyzing stun gun injuries agree that the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries.

BlueCrab

 

[sharpar]

I can think of lots of killers that fit the mild-mannered and/or liked by his neighbors description. John List, Albert Fish, BTK, Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgeway, etc. Even Rob Marshall, Jeffery MacDonald, OJ were superficially normal. But I can't think of any who, once they were the focus of an investigation, turned out to have squeaky clean backgrounds. There were serious holes in all of them.

The Ramseys were checked six ways from Sunday and nothing showed up. Not even when the ethically challenged Globe and Enquirer tried to find dirt on them. I think if there had been any pathology being hidden it would have been dug up.

Jeffery macDonald had affairs but otherwise was model army officer, he was a green beret officer. They must meet strict psychological and physical tests and requirements. He lived free for amny years before being charged with the crime.

John List was quite active in his church as was BTK , Gary Ridgeway fell beneath the radar and passed two polygraphs. They managed too hide
their pathology for decades.

Incest and sexual abuse is a closely guarded secret in families. I know my mother is a survivor and all of her other family members either really didnt know or claim total ignorance of the facts to the present day. The abuse was happening over 60 years ago and no one knows or saw anything amiss according to them . We never see what we refuse to look at.
I knew by eight years old something horrible had happened to my mother as a child. I was almost an adult before she told me the truth and believe I am the only one who heard directly from her the whole ugly truth. I was the one who pushed and prodded and wouldnt let her off the hook with those evasive half answers that everyone else accepted. I was obnoxious but finally after many attempts the secret was revealed . I kept it secret out of respect for her for over 30 years. Finally I told my siblings and my dad the whole truth as I had heard it. It was time and revealing it wouldnt cause her any more suffering and the knowledge answered mysteries for each of them. She suffered the rest of her life from it . Denial is a very powerful force combine it with guilt and shame and you have a perfect receipe for tragedy.

The fact tht investigators didnt find anything in Ramseys background means
nothing. Doesnt mean that incest / abuse / or other dysfunctional behavior isn't there. Not at all.

 

[sharpar]

sharpar,

The representative from Air-Taser had a vested interest in trying to distance Air-Taser from the JonBenet murder. He flat-out misrepresented his product. They advertise their product as non-lethal, yet victims of stun gun shocks are dying regularly. Police departments all over the country who invested heavily in buying Air-Tasers are running into the problem. (I am personally not against police using stun guns, but the risks involved should not be covered up.)

IMO a stun gun had been used on JonBenet and is one of the items of evidence missing from the crime scene. The twin marks on JonBenet's back are identical to the spacing on a Taser brand stun gun. The information described in the website "The Stun Gun Myth" is erroneous. But you don't have to take my word for it. Measure the distances on the crime scene photos yourself and make your own comparisons. The distance between the twin metal prongs of a Taser and the distance between the twin marks on JonBenet's back are identical.

Moreover, the shape of the tiny rectangular burns on JonBenet are identical to the rectangular shape of the Taser's metal prongs.

Also, the slight misalignment of the twin marks on JonBenet was obviously due to the gun being pressed against JonBenet, thus slightly distorting her soft skin a fraction of a second before the trigger was pulled. Using a replica of the twin metal prongs, I successfully demonstrated this on my own arm several years ago. You can demonstrate this on your own forearm by pressing two fingernails (the middle and index fingers) hard and straight into your skin to leave twin marks on the skin; and then, several inches away do it again, only this time distort the skin with the two fingernails before pressing hard into the skin. The first mark will be in alignment and the second mark will be slightly out of alignment.

Incidentally, most medical experts who have had experience in analyzing stun gun injuries agree that the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries.

BlueCrab

Thanks for the other side of the story, I missed any rebuttal when reading
wonder why they didnt post any of this after that lenghty explaination from the mfg on the site ? Do you think John could have gotten rid of stun gun and other evidence when he went for the mail ? Or did Burke have more in his possession than the video game when he went to the Whites ? What is your theory on missing evidence ? I dont recall you addressing this issue . I have learned alot of facts from your posts. I personally think if Burke wrote the ransom note though he was coached. But I believe the author was Patsy.