Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich chgd w/Murder; Christina Noudga, Accessory

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Blame Smich? Millard was a kind generous person who let himself be taken advantage of by a wayward friend who he just really, truly wanted to help.

Yeah, an excellent point, I think that's definitely the way he'll go. But I think any hope of claiming that it was not one of these two individuals responsible vanished when TB's remains were found on his property.

The "tunnel vision" accusation seems completely outlandish to me.
 
The "tunnel vision" accusation seems completely outlandish to me.

Agreed. There is nothing to indicate the police investigating the Bosma murder have tunnel vision or that they haven't carried out a proper investigation.

In fact, it seems that it's the hardcore DM defenders who have tunnel vision. They FEEL -- for whatever reasons that are never clearly explained -- that he can't have done it and ignore the actual existing evidence. That pretty well describes tunnel vision -- overlooking anything that doesn't support your chosen theory...
 
Agreed. There is nothing to indicate the police investigating the Bosma murder have tunnel vision or that they haven't carried out a proper investigation.

In fact, it seems that it's the hardcore DM defenders who have tunnel vision. They FEEL -- for whatever reasons that are never clearly explained -- that he can't have done it and ignore the actual existing evidence. That pretty well describes tunnel vision -- overlooking anything that doesn't support your chosen theory...

I, for one, would be honestly and truly grateful if you might please clarify what defines someone's role as a "hardcore DM defender". It's just completely baffling, IMO. IMHO.
 
Carli, in answer to your challenge, imagine there's no evidence and then describe the evidence needed to convict.

Imagine this policing situation: you're a mom, you have a kid, and you want them to not eat between meals.

Well, you go into the kitchen and it's apparent that someone made a sandwich. You do NOT have high definition video trained on your kitchen. You didn't see a sandwich made, and there is no sign of the sandwich - it's gone - but all signs are that a sandwich was made.

How do you know this? Well, the bread has been disturbed, the margarine and mayo are at the front of the fridge shelf instead of buried in the back there. There is a wet tip on the mustard bottle. Someone didn't close the bologna package properly, there is less bologna, there is juice from a sliced tomato, you find the rest of it in the garbage, crumbs everywhere, some attempt to cover tracks in that a butterknife and a chef's knife are in the dishrack (because your kid thinks this is all you have to do to make things clean enough that you don't notice). There is no smoking gun but all this evidence taken together, I can describe the sandwich quite well.

Did a sandwich happen?
When did this happen?
Where did this happen?
Did someone cause a sandwich to happen?
Did someone intend to cause a sandwich to happen?
Did your kid make the sandwich?

Further investigation shows that you are missing a plate, and you find the plate in your kid's room, covered in crumbs and a smear of mayo, and also the wrapper to a slice of process cheese in their waste can. Your kid tried to hide what they were up to but they ended up tying themselves directly to the action. (This is like DM hiding the truck on his mom's property and the remains at his farm).

How else do you know it was your kid? Your spouse is at work, your other kid was with you, and the kid you suspect has a habit of doing this (lack of alibi, DM stole a Harley, DM stole a truck) and they were talking about bologna and mustard hours ago, asked you to put it on the grocery list (DM's calls to LB and TB).

Making the sandwich (and attempting to hide the signs) is so complex that it is clearly intentional. Someone intended to make that sandwich. It didn't happen by accident or recklessness.

So, anyway, you are going to have to talk to your spouse about this and see if you are going to ground this kid or take away their screen time. You document everything (pictures, words, just like a coroner's report). Then you clean the kitchen because life moves on and you can't preserve a mess forever. Because you cleaned up, is there now no evidence, even if I have documented it all beforehand, and your spouse sees myou as a reliable reporter? (Just because evidence is destroyed when it is no longer useful after being documented, does not mean evidence never existed/does not exist.)

In fact over time your kid is getting fatter (Just the passage of time will help build a case, e.g., that LB is dead.)

Your spouse gets home and you go to confront your kid. The kid is smug. "You didn't see me make a sandwich and there's no video of me making a sandwich!" they cry. "I didn't make a sandwich!" and your spouse and you look at each other and shake your heads and say, the little bugger thinks like a 12 year old. Well, they're 12. I guess that's acceptable.

GROUNDED!

LOL, Snooper. (BTW, if you saw some kind of challenge in my posts, it was certainly completely unintentional.) But back to the sandwich mystery, I'd certainly agree the boy has some 'splainin' to do, but before concluding that he's guilty, I would have to ask at least two more questions: 1. Did the kid's perpetually hungry friend or his friend, the neighborhood bully, drop by for a visit? and 2. Where's the dog?

Without satisfactory answers to those and numerous other such questions, I suggest that the only charge that the evidence so far fully supports may be the lesser crime of keeping a dirty plate in his bedroom.

But, I'm sorry, for expressing MOO here, but using this illustrative example constitutes a logical fallacy which I'm certain was not your intention either. Actually, OT, but come to think of it, having a clear grasp of that subject is probably a particularly useful filter for sleuthers (and for moms of chubby little liars that have mayo on their chins.) IMHO.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/pdf...graphic_A3.pdf
 
I, for one, would be honestly and truly grateful if you might please clarify what defines someone's role as a "hardcore DM defender". It's just completely baffling, IMO. IMHO.

I gotta admit Carli, I find it a little baffling how concerned you are about DM not getting a fair trial, being a possible victim of "tunnel vision" by LE, continually mentioning wrongful conviction cases, etc. It does seem like your angle is that you don't think it's possible he did it because otherwise, I don't see anything to indicate that these things should be a huge concern.
 
I gotta admit Carli, I find it a little baffling how concerned you are about DM not getting a fair trial, being a possible victim of "tunnel vision" by LE, continually mentioning wrongful conviction cases, etc. It does seem like your angle is that you don't think it's possible he did it because otherwise, I don't see anything to indicate that these things should be a huge concern.

This ground has been well trod before. Many posters have pointed out that wrongful conviction cases tend to have certain characteristics, none of which appear to be present in the Bosma murder. These characteristics include:

1. Jailhouse snitch testimony/ incentivized witness (Guy Paul Morin)
2. Evidence limited only to one eyewitness
3. Inability to hire a good lawyer (problem for lower income groups)
4. Crooked cops
5. Complex technical/scientific evidence (Coroner Charles Smith)
6. Societal hysteria (Satanic daycare)

We never seem to get a clear answer as to why certain posters are so concerned about a miscarriage of justice in the Bosma case -- what the specific worries they have actually are.
 
Does anyone have a link to the police presser where LE confirms that TB's body was found in the incinerator?

In a well researched summary of the case dated April 11, 2014, Susan Clairmont writes for the Hamilton Spectator (a story picked up by many news outlets)
http://www.insidehalton.com/news-story/4460278-clairmont-police-believe-body-of-accused-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/



In an April 10, 2014 story for the NP,
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/10/dellen-millard-charged-with-murder-of-his-father-and-missing-toronto-woman-laura-babcock/

Josh Visser chooses words carefully writing and

The implication is very clear and obviously probable. Does anybody have the actual police statement? I seem to recall concern being expressed at one point about more ashes having been found than would be attributable to one person, but I can't find that reference now, either. Thanks.

I don't believe that his body was found in the incinerator. The question is whether it was used to burn his body. I don't remember LE ever confirming this and can find nothing else saying it was confirmed other than your link to SC's article.

Two days after LE announced that they had found TB, they confirmed that they had found the incinerator. At that time...

An incinerator has been found at a farm owned by the man accused of murdering Tim Bosma, the homicide detective in charge of the investigation has confirmed.
But police are not certain if it was used to burn the Ancaster man’s body, said Hamilton police Det. Sgt. Matt Kavanagh.
Kavanagh said forensic officers are trying to determine if the incinerator found on the property belonging to Dellen Millard in North Dumfries was used in connection with Bosma’s murder or the disposal of his body.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/16/tim_bosma_incinerator_found_at_farm_owned_by_dellan_millard.html

Since Sunday, police have been combing a Waterloo Region farm owned by Millard, where an incinerator was found, Kavanagh confirmed to the Hamilton Spectator. It is not known if the machine was used to burn Bosma’s body.

http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/676237/tim-bosma-was-likely-killed-in-his-truck-source/

Staff-Sgt. Matt Kavanagh, lead homicide investigator in the Tim Bosma case, would not confirm whether or not the machine was involved in Mr. Bosma’s death or in the disposal of Mr. Bosma’s remains.

On the 21st, it was still...

An incinerator was found at the property, but police have not said if it is connected with the investigation into the death of Bosma, whose remains are burned.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/police-still-guarding-millard-farm-property-in-bosma-death-investigation-1.1290384

If I recall correctly, there were two reports from unnamed sources - one that there were more ashes than for one person, and one that other remains had been found, both of which were denied by Kavanaugh. In searching for the links, they seem to get inter-mingled.

Despite suggestions the volume of charred material recovered exceeded what would be expected from a man of Mr. Bosma’s size, there is no evidence of additional victims, police said.

“The report of further bodies is totally untrue at this time,” Staff-Sgt. Kavanagh told the National Post.

It is not known if the remains might be from farm animals from the large rural property in Ayr, west of Hamilton.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/16/police-seize-large-incinerator-from-property-of-suspect-in-tim-bosmas-murder/

In the last few days, police sources had told CBC News they believed they had found other remains on the property, but they were unsure if they were animal or human.

On Tuesday, Hamilton police Sgt. Matt Kavanagh said, "We're dealing with one set of human remains."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/only-1-set-of-human-remains-found-at-millard-farm-police-say-1.1335718

JMO
 
CTV News Kitchener at 11:00 PM reported that DP has confirmed that they will be proceeding with a direct indictment and there will be no preliminary hearing. I'll see if they have that posted.

ETA: here you go, it's on Twitter
https://twitter.com/CTVKitchener/status/489244703012163584

Defence attorney for Dellen Millard confirms to CTV that his client's case will go straight to trial with no preliminary hearing.

8:06 PM - 15 Jul 2014
 
CTV News Kitchener at 11:00 PM reported that DP has confirmed that they will be proceeding with a direct indictment and there will be no preliminary hearing. I'll see if they have that posted.

ETA: here you go, it's on Twitter
https://twitter.com/CTVKitchener/status/489244703012163584

Defence attorney for Dellen Millard confirms to CTV that his client's case will go straight to trial with no preliminary hearing.

8:06 PM - 15 Jul 2014

http://www.chch.com/bosma-case-going-straight-trial/

Forgive me if I have missed it, this news clip states it, but I don't believe prior to this there has been official mention if both of these men are being tried together? So, are both going straight to trial? And are we to assume they will be tried together now? (Sorry for my ignorance) Once again only DM attorney "quoted". MS legal team being very quiet from the onset. My personal feeling is that MS has provided enough info to allow this decision to be made. And if that is the case, good for MS. In saying that I don't condone his actions other to "man up" to his crime and it certainly Doesn't excuse him in any way shape or form and can only hope there was no revisit of the "deal with the devil". Of course I could be way off base and perhaps it is DM talking to bust MS but with evidence of the condition of both of these accused reported in recent court appearances, it would seem that DM seems to be the one that is "struggling". But absolutely JMO

I am very happy for the families that this decision has been made and will shorten their torment in the coming months. again JMO
 
LOL, Snooper. (BTW, if you saw some kind of challenge in my posts, it was certainly completely unintentional.) But back to the sandwich mystery, I'd certainly agree the boy has some 'splainin' to do, but before concluding that he's guilty, I would have to ask at least two more questions: 1. Did the kid's perpetually hungry friend or his friend, the neighborhood bully, drop by for a visit? and 2. Where's the dog?

Without satisfactory answers to those and numerous other such questions, I suggest that the only charge that the evidence so far fully supports may be the lesser crime of keeping a dirty plate in his bedroom.

But, I'm sorry, for expressing MOO here, but using this illustrative example constitutes a logical fallacy which I'm certain was not your intention either. Actually, OT, but come to think of it, having a clear grasp of that subject is probably a particularly useful filter for sleuthers (and for moms of chubby little liars that have mayo on their chins.) IMHO.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/pdf...graphic_A3.pdf

Wow what kind of dog would that be? I gotta get me one of those sandwich making dogs. :giggle: JK ;)

What I find quite interesting is with this recent case in Calgary, Alberta, with the missing, now presumed deceased grandparents and their little five year old grandson. The POI was a POI for how many days before they finally arrested him and have laid charges against him for murder. Now we are getting tidbits in the MSM LE are darn certain they have their man, evidence is compelling but they will not reveal what that evidence is of course because they do not want to jeopardize his right to a fair trial and rightfully so. IMO to me it is quite telling when I think of how quickly (as opposed to the Calgary case), LE made their arrest in TB's case. I feel very confident LE did a thorough investigation and had plenty of evidence from the get go to make arrests in both cases. The fact being also is that LE in Calgary more than likely had some pretty good leads from the victims' family as to who the perp(s) might be, as opposed to TB's case where it has been stated in TB's case, the victim and the perps were not known to each other. IMO again, just seems apparent to me LE just don't go arresting people without pretty damning evidence nowadays. And the fact that they released the POI in the Calgary case, took that risk until they felt certain they had their man. All JMO.

I guess what I am trying to say is that LE couldn't hold Calgary POI unless/until they had some solid evidence. For LE to hold DM and MS, LE had to have had some solid evidence. MOO.
 
Interesting...new lawyer for DM? IMO that is just his opinion and of course he would feel that way. He doesn't get to see how the Crown is going present the case.

“A direct indictment in this case is most unfortunate,” said Millard’s Toronto lawyer, Ravin Pillay. “The preliminary inquiry, which an accused is entitled to in almost all serious cases, is an opportunity for a judge to screen charges to determine whether they should go to trial. A preliminary inquiry is also critical for the defence to discover the Crown’s case.”

A trial could be held as early as next year.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/07/16/tim_bosma_murder_case_heading_straight_to_trial.html
 
From a legal standpoint, this position is a real injustice. It implies a conviction before trial, not exactly the stuff of which this country's legal system boasts.

"Guilty until proven otherwise" I guess is the new motto.

Why not get rid of all preliminary hearings then? If a person is only charged when LE is certain they did it, then every other person charged with anything ever in this "fair land" is just as guilty as MS and DM, Rafferty, Bernardo and their ilk. Scrap the part that assists anyone who might just be innocent. After all who cares it's not my life or yours, at least not today.

Are they afraid of what the advantage of knowing the Crown's strategies might result in? Methinks there are still holes in the case that is to be presented, maybe something as crucial as a clear motive.

BTW is CN still in jail??

Swedie, I wonder if the new lawyer is one in the "team" built up by DP initially or if the conflict of intetest in Toronto regarding MWJ was realized and RP takes over in Toronto (or all jurisdictions?).

Also glad you reminded us of the major difference with Garland arrest: history. Along with familiarity and likely motive.
 
IMO again, just seems apparent to me LE just don't go arresting people without pretty damning evidence nowadays.

With all due respect Swedie, IMHO this is a real stretch. LE make mistakes like everyone else, and more often than any of us wish to acknowledge.
 
From a legal standpoint, this position is a real injustice. It implies a conviction before trial, not exactly the stuff of which this country's legal system boasts.

Is it really an injustice? Just because a power is seldom used doesn't mean that in the rare cases it's invoked, it's an abuse of the judicial system.

"Guilty until proven otherwise" I guess is the new motto.

Nope, the accused will have a trial where they are presumed innocent.

Why not get rid of all preliminary hearings then? If a person is only charged when LE is certain they did it, then every other person charged with anything ever in this "fair land" is just as guilty as MS and DM, Rafferty, Bernardo and their ilk. Scrap the part that assists anyone who might just be innocent. After all who cares it's not my life or yours, at least not today.

Over the decades, preliminary trials have swollen up into something they were never intended to be -- mini trials. Many provinces have had a look at how they can streamline the system. Some lawyers consider the preliminary trial, as used in Canada today, redundant, especially given the Supreme court's rulings on disclosure in the early nineties. You are assuming that the current system is some kind of "best practice" when that is not necessarily the case. If you google, you will see the various steps being taken in Canada to streamline the preliminary hearing process.

Are they afraid of what the advantage of knowing the Crown's strategies might result in? Methinks there are still holes in the case that is to be presented, maybe something as crucial as a clear motive.

I sincerely doubt the Crown's afraid. They're probably worried about the publication ban being violated, due to the level of interest in the case. And also about the victim witnesses being put through unwarranted stress twice. When there's a huge amount of evidence, there's really no reason to do this. Please note that the Attorney General in Ontario is not handing out direct indictments left, right and centre. I'm betting we'll find out motive at the trial.

BTW is CN still in jail??

So it appears. And the reason for that is because her lawyer hasn't applied for bail. That's most likely because there's a strong case against her.

Swedie, I wonder if the new lawyer is one in the "team" built up by DP initially or if the conflict of intetest in Toronto regarding MWJ was realized and RP takes over in Toronto (or all jurisdictions?).

Deepak Paradkar is still in charge. He's been in Australia with his daughter's swim team as of late.
 
With all due respect Swedie, IMHO this is a real stretch. LE make mistakes like everyone else, and more often than any of us wish to acknowledge.

Not sure this is true. There are plenty of people that think the cops NEVER do anything right.

I think the key is to exercise healthy skepticism as as opposed to paranoid conspiratorial thinking.
 
http://www.chch.com/bosma-case-going-straight-trial/

Forgive me if I have missed it, this news clip states it, but I don't believe prior to this there has been official mention if both of these men are being tried together? So, are both going straight to trial? And are we to assume they will be tried together now? (Sorry for my ignorance) Once again only DM attorney "quoted". MS legal team being very quiet from the onset. My personal feeling is that MS has provided enough info to allow this decision to be made. And if that is the case, good for MS. In saying that I don't condone his actions other to "man up" to his crime and it certainly Doesn't excuse him in any way shape or form and can only hope there was no revisit of the "deal with the devil". Of course I could be way off base and perhaps it is DM talking to bust MS but with evidence of the condition of both of these accused reported in recent court appearances, it would seem that DM seems to be the one that is "struggling". But absolutely JMO

I am very happy for the families that this decision has been made and will shorten their torment in the coming months. again JMO

This does sound like they are being tried together, but doesn't lead me to suspect one or the other is providing anything. To me, it would suggest the opposite, but that's JMO.

Unfortunately, this won't really speed up the trial, not by much anyway. If it were truly about fast tracking the trial, they should have the trial in September. After all, the courtroom is already booked. It's such a straight forward, obvious case, it shouldn't take long to hear it. :rolleyes:

JMO
 
From a legal standpoint, this position is a real injustice. It implies a conviction before trial, not exactly the stuff of which this country's legal system boasts.

"Guilty until proven otherwise" I guess is the new motto.

Why not get rid of all preliminary hearings then? If a person is only charged when LE is certain they did it, then every other person charged with anything ever in this "fair land" is just as guilty as MS and DM, Rafferty, Bernardo and their ilk. Scrap the part that assists anyone who might just be innocent. After all who cares it's not my life or yours, at least not today.

Are they afraid of what the advantage of knowing the Crown's strategies might result in? Methinks there are still holes in the case that is to be presented, maybe something as crucial as a clear motive.

BTW is CN still in jail??

Swedie, I wonder if the new lawyer is one in the "team" built up by DP initially or if the conflict of intetest in Toronto regarding MWJ was realized and RP takes over in Toronto (or all jurisdictions?).

Also glad you reminded us of the major difference with Garland arrest: history. Along with familiarity and likely motive.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised, considering who our Attorney General is. ;)

This is the reason I am mostly against this type of move, especially in the more serious cases:

Calling the move “extraordinary,” Pillay said the legal procedure is shrouded in secrecy and “significantly impedes” Millard’s ability to mount “a full and complete defence to a serious criminal charge.”
“The accused is not provided with the submissions made by the Crown to the attorney general for the direct indictment. The accused is also not provided with the reasons cited by the attorney general for issuing the direct indictment. There is also no means by which the accused is able to appeal the decision.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/07/16/tim_bosma_murder_case_heading_straight_to_trial.html

There should be no secrecy in an open and fair judicial system and the accused should, at the very least, have the right to see the submissions and the reasons for the decision. It also opens up the chance of more grounds for a later appeal, which certainly does nothing to reduce court hours or costs.

JMO
 
Over the decades, preliminary trials have swollen up into something they were never intended to be -- mini trials. Many provinces have had a look at how they can streamline the system. Some lawyers consider the preliminary trial, as used in Canada today, redundant, especially given the Supreme court's rulings on disclosure in the early nineties. You are assuming that the current system is some kind of "best practice" when that is not necessarily the case. If you google, you will see the various steps being taken in Canada to streamline the preliminary hearing process.

I've posted various links previously in regards to this as well. I think the key here is that steps are needed to streamline the process, not get rid of it entirely.

JMO
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
68
Guests online
3,323
Total visitors
3,391

Forum statistics

Threads
604,433
Messages
18,171,938
Members
232,557
Latest member
Velvetshadow
Back
Top