Timeline Discussion

[DairyGirl]

That's true of most witnesses, including adults.

Have you ever seen someone check their watch and then asked them the time? They usually end up checking their watch again because they weren't really thinking about objective chronological time, they were checking to see if they had enough time to do something or how much longer they had to wait or some such thing.

One thing I find hopeful in establishing timeline is that the school bell rang at 8:45 am, which is right in the middle of the crucial time period. That should help witnesses place their recollections either before or after that time, which would be immensely helpful.

I think most of the kids and the adults there could probably break things up by what happened before they went to class when they were wandering around looking at different displays and after they went to class, at 8:45 am and broke up into groups and it was more organized. I sure someone would remember seeing Kyron and TH if they were in the groups or if it were before the groups were formed.

 

[SurfieTX]

I watched this last night on NBC - Did You See That?! This show was amazing - all about memory and how our brain focuses on certain things at certain times. It surely shed a LOT of light on how Kyron could have left the school without anyone noticing (especially with TH). Be sure to watch the video.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38154937/ns/dateline_nbc/

 

[SmoothOperator]

Different families handle titles of parents differently. Different cultures, too; there are some cultures where it is a mark of respect to call a woman who is about 20 or more years older than oneself and more than a casual acquaintance "Mama" or "Mother." Or, for that matter, "Auntie." Or "Miss" or "Mrs" despite actual marital status.

Would you find it as upsetting if Kyron called TMH "Mom" and DY "Mommy"?

perhaps what you're saying is true, but I have a somewhat similar situation as in sharing custody of my son since he was 2yrs old, his step mom, my ex husbands wife has been in the picture for the majority of that time(10+ yrs my son is almost 13 now)and this is just COMPLETELY out of the question and would be inappropriate in EVERYWAY. But that is my situation and I suppose what you're saying could be a quite possibly other ppls situation... I'm just speaking from my personal situation


ETA: I guess also the actual time spent with DY could play a huge part, as in I am primary custodial parent with my ex having him a little less(as he's gotten older I have allowed him to have every weekend instead pf every other as I think a father plays a huge role in a growing boy's life)... So I think if he spent the vast majority of time with dad and TMH that would make things different

 

[TxLady2]

perhaps what you're saying is true, but I have a somewhat similar situation as in sharing custody of my son since he was 2yrs old, his step mom, my ex husbands wife has been in the picture for the majority of that time(10+ yrs my son is almost 13 now)and this is just COMPLETELY out of the question and would be inappropriate in EVERYWAY. But that is my situation and I suppose what you're saying could be a quite possibly other ppls situation... I'm just speaking from my personal situation


ETA: I guess also the actual time spent with DY could play a huge part, as in I am primary custodial parent with my ex having him a little less(as he's gotten older I have allowed him to have every weekend instead pf every other as I think a father plays a huge role in a growing boy's life)... So I think if he spent the vast majority of time with dad and TMH that would make things different

I do not disagree, just want to add some thoughts.
Since Terri basically took care of Kyron most of his life, wouldn't it be disrespectful, considering his age at the time of their marriage, to call her by her first name? He certainly wouldn't be encouraged to call her "Mrs. Horman" so what would he be expected to call her? Possibly he called his birth mother "Mommy" to distinguish between them.
I see nothing terrible about Kyron calling Terri "Mom"... as long as he understood who his real mother was and she was okay with it.
And I am puzzled why anyone would be upset about it, (not directed at you, btw.) This is something that falls under the heading of THEIR business... not OURS. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[TxLady2]

wasnt sure where to post this but found it on an article dealing with the timeline... feel free to move if need be..

At 8:45 a.m. when the bell rang, Terri walked her stepson down the hall close to his class.

"He told her, 'I'm going back to the classroom, Mom,' and she waves to him and left," Carol Moulton said. "She thought he was safely at school just like he is everyday."

What happened to the boy who went missing is unclear~end quote

above BBM. This is the first I had heard that Kyron actually called Terri MOM!!!!! I am shocked and upset by this....

www.oregonlive.com

He had every right to call her Mom because 1)she was helping to raise him, and 2)she had not done anything to harm him up until that time, if she in fact did harm him at all. I'm sure that Kaine and Desiree were aware of what Kyron called Terri, and did not disapprove. Besides, knowing that he was very young when they married, wouldn't it have been inappropriate for him to call her by her first name? What should he have called her, then?
Just curious.

 

[SmoothOperator]

He had every right to call her Mom because 1)she was helping to raise him, and 2)she had not done anything to harm him up until that time, if she in fact did harm him at all. I'm sure that Kaine and Desiree were aware of what Kyron called Terri, and did not disapprove. Besides, knowing that he was very young when they married, wouldn't it have been inappropriate for him to call her by her first name? What should he have called her, then?
Just curious.

Im in agreeance with you it is different strokes for different folks... And mine was speaking for my situation. And I guess I just have to be reminded sometimes that ppl have differents views, opinions, and ways that they find appropriate for their situation..

You ask what should he? It isnt my place to say and was probly wrong in "sounding" judgemental(tho that was not my intention)when I said I found it upsetting.. I can only speak for my situation and in my situation my son only has one mom, and that is me. He has a step mom that he is under her co-supervision along with his dad 2 days a week. And at around age 3-4 when she became a part of my sons life by being in a relationship with his dad, at that time he called her Miss Shelby, and now at almost 13 he refers to her as Shelby(tho aT times he still does say Miss Shelby out of habit)... As for his step father, my husband who has been in his life since he was 2 and a half he still and always has called him simply, Jared. They are extremely close and in some ways closer than he and his dad, but its never even been thought about for him to call him anything other than, Jared... But this is my situation and that is theirs and it really is not our business, In my opinion it would be inappropriate in my situation

 

[cluciano63]

Smooth Operator, your opinion is not that odd to me. My niece was only four and my nephew six when my sister remarried and they have always called her husband by his first name, and still do, almost 20 years later. And his young children started out calling her by her name and still do. I find it kind of odd/unusual myself that Kyron would call them both "mom", if he did/does. (In fact, my niece, when she was little, once referred to her stepfather in class as "my kevin" to clarify him from "my father".

 

[Littleone48]

I keep going back to the teacher. Just can't get pass it. IMO the timeline is somewhere between 8:45 and 9am. It may have been SM or it may have been a perp. Maybe someone who had just dropped their child off and Kryon was in the wrong place at the right time.

First we hear that she said "don't worry he's probably getting a drink of water or going to the bathroom. Why would she "think" this? Did he ask her to go?

Then we hear that she "marked him absent at 10am." Why if she thought TH had taken him with her would she mark him "absent"? He was there at the school, he was seen, he was not absent. If anything it should've been marked Early Dismissal if that's the way they do it. I know they do it here as it doesn't count as an "absent" because you were there at school.

As for the comments Kryon's friend made I think it's true..that teacher had no idea where Kryon was and I am doubting the story about the Dr appointment. I think she is CYA.

 

[SurfieTX]

I keep going back to the teacher. Just can't get pass it. IMO the timeline is somewhere between 8:45 and 9am. It may have been SM or it may have been a perp. Maybe someone who had just dropped their child off and Kryon was in the wrong place at the right time.

First we hear that she said "don't worry he's probably getting a drink of water or going to the bathroom. Why would she "think" this? Did he ask her to go?

Then we hear that she "marked him absent at 10am." Why if she thought TH had taken him with her would she mark him "absent"? He was there at the school, he was seen, he was not absent. If anything it should've been marked Early Dismissal if that's the way they do it. I know they do it here as it doesn't count as an "absent" because you were there at school.

As for the comments Kryon's friend made I think it's true..that teacher had no idea where Kryon was and I am doubting the story about the Dr appointment. I think she is CYA.

This is what I think (I posted it in another thread):

Grrr...none of this makes sense! Okay based on the links and things, this is only what I can surmise:

1. TH *said* that she had him near his class at 8:45.

2. The warning bell rung at 8:35. The final bell rang at 8:45. Therefore at 8:45, I think it is safe to assume that the teachers and chaperones would have been in their respective classes with the students getting ready to split up to tour.

3. No "school official" saw him except "earlier in the morning showing off his project." Therefore, he must not have made it into the classroom to group up. The chaperone must have done a head count for her group at the *start* of the tour. She noticed Kyron was missing. Teacher told her he was probably getting a drink or going to the bathroom.

4. Kyron never caught up with his group or returned to his class at the end of the tour.

5. The teacher took roll when they all reassembled in the class and marked Kyron absent. She assumed he missed the school tour and left with his mother and marked him absent.

So, TO ME, the window of opportunity is between 8:15 (last school official sighting by Zimmerman) and 8:45 (Terri's statement). Also, I think that's why LE was asking earlier this week for videos/statements/pictures, etc. of sightings of Kyron after 8:45.

 

[Calliope]

Different families handle titles of parents differently. Different cultures, too; there are some cultures where it is a mark of respect to call a woman who is about 20 or more years older than oneself and more than a casual acquaintance "Mama" or "Mother." Or, for that matter, "Auntie." Or "Miss" or "Mrs" despite actual marital status.

Would you find it as upsetting if Kyron called TMH "Mom" and DY "Mommy"?

I suspect he did. Remember the letter Desiree left for Kyron? I seem to recall from the close-up shot it said something like 'momma Desiree'. When I saw that I thought it must be because he referred to each of them as some variation of 'mom' (like you say here).

 

[SmoothOperator]

Smooth Operator, your opinion is not that odd to me. My niece was only four and my nephew six when my sister remarried and they have always called her husband by his first name, and still do, almost 20 years later. And his young children started out calling her by her name and still do. I find it kind of odd/unusual myself that Kyron would call them both "mom", if he did/does. (In fact, my niece, when she was little, once referred to her stepfather in class as "my kevin" to clarify him from "my father".

I wasn't meaning it to sound judgemental was simply stating that as a mom of a little boy that shares custody with dad and stepmom I would be upset if he was calling her "mom", as I am his only "mom". I know you and I are not alone in finding it odd, as throughout the years I have friends, family, and acquaintances that have dealt with this and found it hurtful and disconcerting for a stepmom to be having her son call her "mom". I do not know the circumstances of why this was done in Kyron's situation but I know that in two cases that I know of it was encouraged by the dad and stepmom for the child to start calling stepmom "mom" and this was done for no other reason than to try to hurt the child's "mom", it wasn't just something that happened "organically" it was done rather out of vindictiveness and coerced by the dad and stepmom for the child to do. I am in no way saying that is what happened in the Horman's case, but know for a fact it is NOT always for the right reasons or best interest of the child..
Just wanted to be clear that I was not making my statement about the "mom" thing being judgemental or accusatory rather I am only speaking from personal experience and in my opinion it is an odd thing when the "mom" was supposedly very much a part of this little boys life...
I'll chalk it up to "different strokes for different folks"

ETA- when my son was much younger he too would refer to his stepdad as "my Jared". I always thought it was really sweet, too.

 

[wondering1]

I suspect he did. Remember the letter Desiree left for Kyron? I seem to recall from the close-up shot it said something like 'momma Desiree'. When I saw that I thought it must be because he referred to each of them as some variation of 'mom' (like you say here).

I wonder what he called TH. Not for any particular reason except I don't think I've heard about it one way or the other. I would be surprised if he did, though. I would be really surprised if my kids were encouraged to call my exe's nanny/gf/even wife, Mom. Plus, KH and TH didn't get married until relatively recently. And even if my kids *were* encouraged to do it, I think they would think it was weird and wouldn't do it anyway.

It's not like DY is dead or Kyron was raised only by another woman since he was tiny and, so, knows no other mother. Under those circumstances, I can see it. But not under these circumstances. And, frankly, it would annoy me quite a lot that another woman would presume to have my kids call her Mom, or that my ex would allow it or encourage it. Irrational, perhaps, but I think that would be a very natural reaction for any Mom.

 

[wondering1]

This is what I think (I posted it in another thread):

Grrr...none of this makes sense! Okay based on the links and things, this is only what I can surmise:

1. TH *said* that she had him near his class at 8:45.

2. The warning bell rung at 8:35. The final bell rang at 8:45. Therefore at 8:45, I think it is safe to assume that the teachers and chaperones would have been in their respective classes with the students getting ready to split up to tour.

3. No "school official" saw him except "earlier in the morning showing off his project." Therefore, he must not have made it into the classroom to group up. The chaperone must have done a head count for her group at the *start* of the tour. She noticed Kyron was missing. Teacher told her he was probably getting a drink or going to the bathroom.

4. Kyron never caught up with his group or returned to his class at the end of the tour.

5. The teacher took roll when they all reassembled in the class and marked Kyron absent. She assumed he missed the school tour and left with his mother and marked him absent.

So, TO ME, the window of opportunity is between 8:15 (last school official sighting by Zimmerman) and 8:45 (Terri's statement). Also, I think that's why LE was asking earlier this week for videos/statements/pictures, etc. of sightings of Kyron after 8:45.

The only fly in the ointment is the one account of a classmate saying (either explicitly or by implication) that the bathroom/water comment and the head count was done at the end of the tour and not the beginning. So sometime around 10:00. I'm not sure what the posting rules are about that particular account at this point, so not sure what else I can say about it, but this has been something that's bothered me all along.

Does anyone else know what I'm referring to? Have a link? I think it was discussed here before, but it was a long time ago.

 

[human]

The only fly in the ointment is the one account of a classmate saying (either explicitly or by implication) that the bathroom/water comment and the head count was done at the end of the tour and not the beginning. So sometime around 10:00. I'm not sure what the posting rules are about that particular account at this point, so not sure what else I can say about it, but this has been something that's bothered me all along.

Does anyone else know what I'm referring to? Have a link? I think it was discussed here before, but it was a long time ago.

I felt the same way, but another poster pointed out that it could have been at the beginning of the tours, not at the end.

That makes sense to me, as if the tour leader was leading, wouldn't that person notice the group throughout? Isn't that the point of a chaperon?

 

[Calliope]

I felt the same way, but another poster pointed out that it could have been at the beginning of the tours, not at the end.

That makes sense to me, as if the tour leader was leading, wouldn't that person notice the group throughout? Isn't that the point of a chaperon?

It was at the end of the tours as they were coming back into class (around 9:45 or so), according to the friend. You can search out the interview, and it's posted on youtube.

 

[SurfieTX]

The only fly in the ointment is the one account of a classmate saying (either explicitly or by implication) that the bathroom/water comment and the head count was done at the end of the tour and not the beginning. So sometime around 10:00. I'm not sure what the posting rules are about that particular account at this point, so not sure what else I can say about it, but this has been something that's bothered me all along.

Does anyone else know what I'm referring to? Have a link? I think it was discussed here before, but it was a long time ago.

Right, BUT, the school spokesperson made a public statement that the last school official to see him was at 8:15. That would rule out the teacher and chaperon. Unfortunately, I would lend more credence to the school spokesperson's statement than a young child.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/police_ask_media_for_footage_o.html

"Authorities are asking media to give them copies of any video interviews with students, parents or others who said they saw Kyron Horman after 8:45 a.m. on June 4.

Investigators initially said that Kyron Horman was seen by someone around 9 a.m. June 4 at the school. They later amended the timeline, saying he was last seen at 8:45 a.m. by his stepmother, Terri Moulton Horman, as he headed to his classroom."

 

[human]

It was at the end of the tours as they were coming back into class (around 9:45 or so), according to the friend. You can search out the interview, and it's posted on youtube.

that is really really weird considering that there have been so many reports that he never made it to his classroom.

I wonder what the reasonable explanation is for this?

 

[Calliope]

Right, BUT, the school spokesperson made a public statement that the last school official to see him was at 8:15. That would rule out the teacher and chaperon. Unfortunately, I would lend more credence to the school spokesperson's statement than a young child.

Who has more motive to lie (or withhold the truth, shall we say)? What T describes puts the school at risk for a huge liability suit.

 

[SurfieTX]

Who has more motive to lie (or withhold the truth, shall we say)? What T describes puts the school at risk for a huge liability suit.

ITA. I amended my last post with statements from LE. Could they be in cahoots with the school about the timeline? IDK.

 

[wondering1]

I felt the same way, but another poster pointed out that it could have been at the beginning of the tours, not at the end.

That makes sense to me, as if the tour leader was leading, wouldn't that person notice the group throughout? Isn't that the point of a chaperon?

When I listened to it/read it, it seemed very clear to me that it must have been at the end. I don't remember why, but I think the child specifically said it was at the end. He also said that the "substitute" then left, which also implies to me that it was at the end. I'll have to go look for the link. At this point, I don't even remember what child said it. I think there's only one that talked about this issue, but I'm not even sure of THAT anymore.