Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #4

[JDG]

Many experts are stating what they “believe could have happened.”

I am hoping the official investigation reveals the truth.

IMO, the official investigation will be just another guess at what likely happened but at least it will be backed by some semblance of evidence and proffered by ‘real’ experts.

The only five people who ‘may have known’ but I doubt it, are deceased.

Perhaps we will have a reasonable and probable answer in 18 months.

 

[Kingsley]

A couple of nights ago I watched a show about the Titanic on tubi. It was from 2012, I believe. The show asserted that the Titanic did indeed split in two prior to sinking and that the parts were almost a mile apart. One part was partially vertical and into the bottom a bit and the other part was more horizontal. I had no idea that these were so far apart. Do we know which part is usually visited? Which part was the Titan visiting? Just curious. Thanks.

 

[PrairieWind]

A couple of nights ago I watched a show about the Titanic on tubi. It was from 2012, I believe. The show asserted that the Titanic did indeed split in two prior to sinking and that the parts were almost a mile apart. One part was partially vertical and into the bottom a bit and the other part was more horizontal. I had no idea that these were so far apart. Do we know which part is usually visited? Which part was the Titan visiting? Just curious. Thanks.

Many survivors gave reports that they thought the Titanic had broken at the surface, but it was unconfirmed of course until the wreck was located. The bow and stern sections are both horizonal the ocean floor and upright about 2000 feet apart. The bow section is likely the target of most expeditions since it more recognizable and in far better shape/condition.

 

[iamshadow21]

A couple of nights ago I watched a show about the Titanic on tubi. It was from 2012, I believe. The show asserted that the Titanic did indeed split in two prior to sinking and that the parts were almost a mile apart. One part was partially vertical and into the bottom a bit and the other part was more horizontal. I had no idea that these were so far apart. Do we know which part is usually visited? Which part was the Titan visiting? Just curious. Thanks.

Most of the people going down would be most interested in seeing the bow. It's what you see most in photographs. It remained the most intact after the sinking, and even with the deterioration of the steel still looks recognisably like a ship, cutting through a 'wave' of ocean floor sediment. The stern is far, far more damaged, and while the very back where the propeller is is still somewhat recognisable, the other end, where the break is, more closely resembles a demolished multistory building, with all the layers of construction pancaked one on top of the other. Between the two sections is a wide debris field scattered with twisted bits of metal, cables, and structure, and more delicate items such as dishes, wine bottles, and personal belongings of passengers, including recognisable items of clothing such as boots, or items of jewelry, which may or may not have been on the body of a victim at the time of the sinking. The majority of these more personal items have been salvaged throughout the years, some by organisations with more respect for the site than others. All of the broader wreck site is highly dangerous to visit due to obstacles, currents, and the inherent dangers of diving four kilometres under the surface. The Titan was aiming to 'land' at an area about half a kilometre from the bow, away from the debris field, for safety. They would have probably explored the bow for much of the time, as well as some of the debris field. I don't know if they would have gone as far as the stern, as navigation that far down is incredibly difficult and visibility is next to nil, even with the external lights on the sub.

MOO

 

[Charlot123]

Not knowing anything about the area, can you elaborate?

@PrairieWind, I apologize for not quite understanding the question. By "the area", do you mean the state of WA? Or the physics of air as opposed to ocean physics? (Answering both).

As it has been mentioned before, Everett is where commercial Boeing is located. Everything in and around it, is, essentially, about flying. Paine Field Airport, Everett Community College's Aviation Maintenance Technology program, Paul Allen's Flying Heritage Museum, and many other things.
Bremerton is a naval and submarine base. Nearby there is an Olympic college that has Manufacturing Technology and STEM programs. It is not a totally closed city, they have exceptionally interesting excursions. While some parts might be closed, i imagine there'd be plenty of space for SR's tiny submersible.

It would seem that conceptually, SR's sub would belong there, and he should've been consulting people working at undersea objects.

The concept of lightweight cigar-shaped
bodies, made of composites and moving through rarefied air is applicable to aeroplanes. It is all about wing geometry, lifting force and ascension power. This is what SR had studied, too.

Subs, moving deep underwater and being subjected to high water column pressure, require very different engineering. If one didn't study it, he'd be consulting people who specialize in sea physics.

I think that mentally, SR still could not disengage from the planes. JMO.

 

[PrairieWind]

@PrairieWind, I apologize for not quite understanding the question. By "the area", do you mean the state of WA? Or the physics of air as opposed to ocean physics? (Answering both).

As it has been mentioned before, Everett is where commercial Boeing is located. Everything in and around it, is, essentially, about flying. Paine Field Airport, Everett Community College's Aviation Maintenance Technology program, Paul Allen's Flying Heritage Museum, and many other things.
Bremerton is a naval and submarine base. Nearby there is an Olympic college that has Manufacturing Technology and STEM programs. It is not a totally closed city, they have exceptionally interesting excursions. While some parts might be closed, i imagine there'd be plenty of space for SR's tiny submersible.

It would seem that conceptually, SR's sub would belong there, and he should've been consulting people working at undersea objects.

The concept of lightweight cigar-shaped
bodies, made of composites and moving through rarefied air is applicable to aeroplanes. It is all about wing geometry, lifting force and ascension power. This is what SR had studied, too.

Subs, moving deep underwater and being subjected to high water column pressure, require very different engineering. If one didn't study it, he'd be consulting people who specialize in sea physics.

I think that mentally, SR still could not disengage from the planes. JMO.

Thanks for the response. I was indeed asking about the physical location of Everett vs. Bremerton. Do we know where the sub was constructed? I also wondered who actually owned the sub. It appears the Bahamian company was the operating company, but not sure that they owned the sub.

 

[ktm44]

Thanks for the response. I was indeed asking about the physical location of Everett vs. Bremerton. Do we know where the sub was constructed? I also wondered who actually owned the sub. It appears the Bahamian company was the operating company, but not sure that they owned the sub.

I think I read at one point that the Bahamian company owned the submersible because of more favorable liability laws.

 

[ktm44]

Sorry, double post.

 

[10ofRods]

A couple of nights ago I watched a show about the Titanic on tubi. It was from 2012, I believe. The show asserted that the Titanic did indeed split in two prior to sinking and that the parts were almost a mile apart. One part was partially vertical and into the bottom a bit and the other part was more horizontal. I had no idea that these were so far apart. Do we know which part is usually visited? Which part was the Titan visiting? Just curious. Thanks.

I think Titanic was visiting the bigger section (but PN's previous expeditions focused heavily on the debris field, so who knows what they were planning).

The part that went in more vertically was the heavy part (the stern) because it contained the engines.

One article (I don't have a link so IMO) stated that the larger section (the bow) is the most visited.

However, the Titan had an erratic record of reaching the exact part of the Titanic that was intended (which isn't surprising, given that there are no regular updates that the Titan could have used to know what the currents were at the precise moment they were down there)

IMO. There are several articles about Rush's descent onto the main deck area of the bow (he wasn't supposed to do it, but no one there to write a ticket).

IMO.

 

[Chimera]

Did Titan implode because it was DRAGGED to Titanic site?

Experts have pointed out a number of cost-cutting measures that could have contributed to the catastrophic implosion of the Titan submersible last month during a dive to the Titanic wreckage.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Unlike the Titan, the Alvin was designed as a sphere with an all-titanium hull, which was transported to the dive site on the deck of a mothership, while the Titan was towed across the rough waters of the North Atlantic on its small dive platform, potentially damaging the shoddy vessel before it imploded and killed five.

Attempts to lift the platform with a buoy on the tow line were unsuccessful, and Rush had to send divers out to clear water from the platform's bouncy tanks, a process that took half a day.

The no fishing line was discovered tangled in the platform, leaving the cause of the incident a mystery.
Red bolding mine.

Lot's of Hmmm's.
For the money being paid by the passengers, there should have been enough $ to ensure the safety of the Titan.

In all fairness, the ceo himself thought it was safe enough to go along.
Still feeling bad for the other people, as I don't imagine they understood how dangerous the Titan's descent had become ?
Omo.

 

[Sundog]

An in-person private Memorial Ceremony will be held for Paul-Henri "PH' Nargeolet on July 19 from 2:30 pm - 3:30 pm EDT, but for those who want to pay their respects it will be live-streamed on the Facebook page of RMS Titanic, Inc. at Log into Facebook

 

[Charlot123]

Concerning the Titanic itself

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush said sub was damaged by lightning

New video has emerged of OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush saying the Titan submersible — in which he and four others were killed last month – had been severely damaged by a lightning strike during…

nypost.com

The details posted below.

“New video has emerged of OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush saying the Titan submersible that killed him and four other people last month had been severely damaged by a lightning strike during a test dive.

Rush, who was piloting the vessel when it imploded en route to the Titanic shipwreck, disclosed the 2018 incident in the Bahamas during an interview with undersea tech firm Teledyne Marine, Insider reported.

“Fortunately, it was not a direct strike. A direct strike to the carbon fiber probably would have taken us totally out,” he said in the now-deleted interview, copies of which have been posted on YouTube.

The original video was posted in August 2020, according to metadata reviewed by Insider.
In a May 16, 2018, post on its Instagram account, OceanGate said the Titan had undergone deep-sea testing a month earlier near Marsh Harbour in the Bahamas.

“Upon arrival the sub’s electronics sustained lightning damage that affected over 70% of its internal systems,” OceanGate said in the post. “Combined with uncharacteristically stormy and windy conditions in the Bahamas the team was unable to complete the first 4000-meter dive at least 45 days prior to the Titanic Survey Expedition.”

Rush said in a statement that he was disappointed by the delay, but added that “we are not willing to short cut the testing process due to a condensed timeline. We are 100% committed to safety and want to fully test the sub and validate all operational and emergency procedures before launching any expedition.”

In the interview with Teledyne Marine, Rush said his company replaced the sub’s faulty parts quickly.

“Fortunately, we are using commercial off-the-shelf and line-replaceable items. So in a matter of a couple of days, we were able to replace all those components,” said Rush, who piloted the Titan with a Logitech video game controller.

“But we continue to have issues on connectors, penetrators, wiring. Lightning can do weird things. That pushed our testing back and we ended up having to cancel that,” he added.

 

[Sundog]

Memorial ceremony today at 2:30 p.m. EDT for Paul Henri (PH) Nargeolet at link below.

Today from 2:30 p.m. - 3:30 p.m. EDT (20h30 - 21h30 CEST) RMS Titanic, Inc. will host a private memorial ceremony for Paul-Henri ‘PH’ Nargeolet which will be streamed live to provide an outlet for the world-wide Titanic and oceanographic communities to remember our colleague and friend and to express our grief together. The in-person event will be closed to the public, but there is no registration necessary to watch and participate online.

Guests can participate online here: https://www.facebook.com/rmstitanicinc

 

[ArianeEmory]

RMS Titanic Inc. will hold live-streamed memorial service for Titan passenger Paul-Henri Nargeolet that coincides with the company's new exhibit

The company has invoked Nargeolet's passion for the shipwreck and prior work in promoting its new French exhibit.

www.insider.com

David Concannon, a longtime friend of Nargeolet and a former legal advisor to both RMS Titanic Inc. and OceanGate, told Insider he would not be attending the company's memorial service.

"I will be attending another, more appropriate memorial ceremony for PH," Concannon said in a statement to Insider. "The timing of the Paris event, so close to the opening of a commercial artifact exhibit there, is unfortunate."

 

[Sundog]

Memorial ceremony today at 2:30 p.m. EDT for Paul Henri (PH) Nargeolet at link below.

Today from 2:30 p.m. - 3:30 p.m. EDT (20h30 - 21h30 CEST) RMS Titanic, Inc. will host a private memorial ceremony for Paul-Henri ‘PH’ Nargeolet which will be streamed live to provide an outlet for the world-wide Titanic and oceanographic communities to remember our colleague and friend and to express our grief together. The in-person event will be closed to the public, but there is no registration necessary to watch and participate online.

Guests can participate online here: https://www.facebook.com/rmstitanicinc

^^^
Replying to my own post, to say that a video of the Memorial Ceremony will be available on their website for those who are unable to watch it live today.

I had trouble downloading it, it kept loading and reloading, so will watch it later when not as many people are likely to be downloading it at the same time. Just an FYI for those who are interested in watching it.

 

[cuffem]

Thought I would just post this here about shipwreck salvage,

Don't mess with shipwrecks in U.S. waters, government warns

Many shipwrecks are "highly threatened by illegal salvage," the Maritime Administration said in a notice.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Luna20]

A close friend of Stockton Rush, who was operating the Titan sub when it imploded last month, compared the vessel to a “mouse trap for billionaires” and accused the OceanGate CEO of murdering his passengers in an interview with “60 Minutes Australia.”

Karl Stanley — a submarine operator himself who rode on the Titan during a test run in the Bahamas in 2019 — said that “Stockton was designing a mouse trap for billionaires,” and suggested that he was happy to risk the lives of his affluent passengers in order to go down in history.

OceanGate CEO created ‘mouse trap for billionaires,’ murdered his passengers: friend

Karl Stanley, a close friend of Stockton Rush, suggested that the OceanGate CEO had a “death wish” that made him carelessly risk the lives of his passengers to go down in history.

nypost.com

 

[somequestions]

I am now wondering how protected was the aft end of the submersible, the part outside the carbon fiber hull. This is the pointy part of the submersible on the other side of the aft titanium dome. How well was that protected? If that pointy part of the submersible somehow fell apart structurally, could that lead to the eventual destruction of the rest of the submersible?

I wonder about it because if the communication transcript is true, that pointy part of the sub is where it looks like the electronics and other functional equipment was held. Maybe this part of the submersible had some sort of problem which is why the submersible had trouble trying to ascend back to the surface?

It will be interesting to see the final investigation report from the combined investigation done by the U.S. Coast Guard investigation board, the Canadian Transportation Safety Board, the U.K. investigation board, and the French investigation board.

 

[PrairieWind]

I am now wondering how protected was the aft end of the submersible, the part outside the carbon fiber hull. This is the pointy part of the submersible on the other side of the aft titanium dome. How well was that protected? If that pointy part of the submersible somehow fell apart structurally, could that lead to the eventual destruction of the rest of the submersible?

I wonder about it because if the communication transcript is true, that pointy part of the sub is where it looks like the electronics and other functional equipment was held. Maybe this part of the submersible had some sort of problem which is why the submersible had trouble trying to ascend back to the surface?

It will be interesting to see the final investigation report from the combined investigation done by the U.S. Coast Guard investigation board, the Canadian Transportation Safety Board, the U.K. investigation board, and the French investigation board.

The rear pointy part is, I think, just a fiberglass shroud. It is outside the pressure hull and just encapsulates whatever equipment is back there and probably provides for some streamlining. It isn't designed to withstand pressure, and the pressure inside it would be the same as outside. So that part wouldn't implode.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The rear pointy part is, I think, just a fiberglass shroud. It is outside the pressure hull and just encapsulates whatever equipment is back there and probably provides for some streamlining. It isn't designed to withstand pressure, and the pressure inside it would be the same as outside. So that part wouldn't implode.

Having watched many a youtube documentary on this, I am now au fait with submersible design. So the pressure hull of the Titan was cylindrical titanium instead of spherical titanium. Cylinders are not recommended as they have to be capped either end, therefore, vulnerable points.

The titanium cylinder was thin in order to reduce weight but bound and wrapped with fibreglass to try to strengthen it where it was not thick enough itself to withstand water pressure. Fibreglass is not ever indicated as an appropriate material for a submersible. Also the fibreglass was only wrapped / glued in one direction of banding and not multidirectional gluing which meant it was weaker than if it had been done in multiple directions.

The titanium 'end caps' of the cylinder were glued in place, also not recommended and dangerous, something to do with right angles being exceptionally vulnerable in water pressure.

The whole submersible was encased in an outer shell that was not related to the pressure cabin and blew off at the time of implosion and that is why large pieces of the vessel were recovered to the confusion of some people who wondered how that could be.

In summary = stick with proven and tested materials and designs - thick titanium spherical hulls that by default are not large enough to contain numerous passengers. Don't rely on fibreglass for extra strength. Stay on dry land.