TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #13

[Pearl*]

I'm using your post to bounce my thoughts off of the possibility of suicide.


These are my thoughts:

There is no way I would commit suicide by plummeting my vehicle off of a steep cliff/mountain.

NO WAY.

Why would one subject themselves to compound fractures, brain damage, losing a limb.....my point is that there is NO GUARANTEE that you will die! You have a HIGH risk of becoming a vegetable!

IMO, one would overdose on pills..you would fall asleep....painless....


IMO, there are only 3 options here. A terrible accident (which I don't think happened) or someone forced her off the road, or someone made it look like an accident...

Just my thoughts.

I see your logic. But... if somebody were planning suicide, a certain amount of logic goes away, IMO. I think that's part of the problem in trying to imagine suicide. If we're rational, it's hard to relate to "irrational."

But down to your three options, I agree that accident is hard to visualize, though not impossible. I think forcing her off the road at that spot would be incredibly risky, along with incredibly difficult with the precision that would be required. Making it look like an accident seems more reasonable to me than forcing her off the road. But ONLY if we can go back to the source of that information about the 23 minute time frame and discount it. Considering our earlier posting about fact vs. rumor, I'm not sure we know where that information originated. If the source was not LE, then maybe we're in the "rumor morphed to fact" syndrome. I don't know. Next week's press conference should clarify that, at least.

 

[Emeralgem]

I see your logic. But... if somebody were planning suicide, a certain amount of logic goes away, IMO. I think that's part of the problem in trying to imagine suicide. If we're rational, it's hard to relate to "irrational."

But down to your three options, I agree that accident is hard to visualize, though not impossible. I think forcing her off the road at that spot would be incredibly risky, along with incredibly difficult with the precision that would be required. Making it look like an accident seems more reasonable to me than forcing her off the road. But ONLY if we can go back to the source of that information about the 23 minute time frame and discount it. Considering our earlier posting about fact vs. rumor, I'm not sure we know where that information originated. If the source was not LE, then maybe we're in the "rumor morphed to fact" syndrome. I don't know. Next week's press conference should clarify that, at least.

BBM..Not necessarily.. And I speak from a personal experience having lost my husband to suicide....JMHO

 

[Pearl*]

BBM..Not necessarily.. And I speak from a personal experience having lost my husband to suicide....JMHO

I'm so sorry, Em. And you're right, of course.

In Gail's case, though, since the claims of delusional thinking were made, I was looking at the "irrational" theory.

 

[Ladydoc]

IF mental illness is key in this case, I don't know how enough detail of that could be brought out to satisfy the public, without a massive violation of HIPAA. I am curious about whether HIPAA privacy rights disappear after a person is deceased. Does anybody know?

Of course, to bring out such information just to satisfy public curiousity would be, IMO, cruel. But would it be legal?

HIPAA laws extend for patients after death. The release of information to authorized individuals such as an estate executor is largely left up to individual states and is predominately a judgment call made in court.

Furthermore, I agree that suicide is very unlikely in Gail's case for several reasons: 1) she was exhibiting very rational self-preservation-type behavior leading up to her death, 2) she was making plans for her financial freedom, and 3) women rarely choose this manner of committing suicide--more likely an overdose than a violent act.

 

[fireflylink]

I'm so sorry, Em. And you're right, of course.

In Gail's case, though, since the claims of delusional thinking were made, I was looking at the "irrational" theory.

BBM

IMO, At this point though, we are all aware that LE immediately discounted any claims of delusional behavior with regards to Gail, and unless LE were to provide information to the contrary, any "irrational" theory would be unsubstantiated in this particular case. JMVHO

Initially, after her disappearance many theories were speculated upon which are quite simply no longer relevant. Sadly, it is now a known fact that she did not simply escape to a new existance.

Perhaps this is an opportunity to re-visit the information which has been available since Gail disappeared, but from the perspective that we now know where she was from day one.

 

[Pearl*]

HIPAA laws extend for patients after death. The release of information to authorized individuals such as an estate executor is largely left up to individual states and is predominately a judgment call made in court.

Furthermore, I agree that suicide is very unlikely in Gail's case for several reasons: 1) she was exhibiting very rational self-preservation-type behavior leading up to her death, 2) she was making plans for her financial freedom, and 3) women rarely choose this manner of committing suicide--more likely an overdose than a violent act.

Very helpful information on the legalities as well as the stats. Thank you.

In the end, I think we're left with no possibility that makes a lot of sense to me. Just an incredible tragedy for all concerned.

Maybe the press conference next week will help everybody. I really hope so.

 

[suzier]

Info like this makes one think murder:

Info like this makes one think of mental illness:

"April 23 - Gail makes an impromptu visit with her kids to the home of family friends in Alabama. After becoming separated from the children on a shopping trip, she calls police, suspecting a plot to take the kids away from her. They were found shortly thereafter with a friend and it was determined they were never really "missing." (Source: Chattanoogan.com) In the weeks leading up to her disappearance Gail starts handing out personal items, such as her passport, to friends along with instructions to keep them safe"

http://www.newschannel9.com/articles/disappearance-1006947-palmgren-missing.html

this is the first I have seen this about the kids. I tried to find the original article on chattanoogan.com but was unable to. I am naturally leery about how accurate reporting is BUT let's assume the essence of this account is true. I don't think it speaks to mental illness. I think it speaks to betrayal and intentionally provoking someone.

Think about it....she is presumably out of town visiting friends. She takes the kids shopping. While shopping the kids are gone. Calling the police is the normal response. I would think the police asked her to speculate about who would take her kids. Then, oops, silly woman, they are just with a friend. This doesn't sound like some innocent incident. Frankly, it enrages me as I am thinking this through.

In some cases I think it is easier to remain open-minded about the possibility of mental-illness manifesting in paranoia and delusion. In this case Gail apparently was no more paranoid or delusional than BCBS. I mean they terminated his employment (I did see in the same article BCBS sited Gail's disappearance was a work place distraction....I don't think that is true...I may be wrong, tho.

Seriously, now I am really upset....poor Gail....shopping and her children disappear...good grief!!!

 

[Ladydoc]

Suzier, I get where you are coming from. One could easily make an argument that MP was laying the groundwork for Gail appearing to be mentally ill to perhaps explain an apparent suicide. Sounds diabolical, but this type of premeditation is supported by his statements prior to and after her disappearance. I have yet to see an explanation of why he did not attend the work conference that weekend, what car was purchased by he and his GF, and why he returned early. Circumstantial I know, but incredibly hinky...

 

[hollyblue]

Then that would have been a stupid place to run/push the Jeep off the road - how would someone be sure it would stop & not fall all the way to the other road at the bottom of the cliff? If this was premeditated murder, the chosen location does not make sense - it is not isolated plus there is no curve there. Logically, a murderer would look for both. I also don't think it would be possible to throw her off the cliff & have her land so close to the vehicle.

IIRC, she was 100' downhill from the jeep and closer to the W Road.

I'll do a check for the article.

Found it:
The Jeep went over two bluffs and traveled about 350 feet before coming to a rest on a steep, 82-degree slope about 300 feet from the W Road, said Capt. Bill Johnson with the sheriff's department.
Palmgren's scattered remains were found about 100 yards below the jeep.
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/dec/05/gail-palmgren-jeep-removal-planned-for-today/?print

While searching for this, I found where 2 men in CA went over a bluff (400') on 12/22 on Governor's Peak in CA....with a double seated ATV.

 

[SnoopyDoobyDoo]

These are my thoughts:

There is no way I would commit suicide by plummeting my vehicle off of a steep cliff/mountain.

NO WAY.

Why would one subject themselves to compound fractures, brain damage, losing a limb.....my point is that there is NO GUARANTEE that you will die! You have a HIGH risk of becoming a vegetable!

IMO, one would overdose on pills..you would fall asleep....painless....

SBM. A friend of mine, while struggling with depression, said that one of the hardest things was when she was driving over bridges- it occured to her just how easily she could turn that wheel in a split second. She wasn't actively planning suicide at the time, but more than once she came close to going over the edge. What frightened me the most with this conversation is that several other women piped up with the same thought.

 

[hollyblue]

IIRC.. MP"s attorney was the one who first claimed her jeep went off the mtn. at approximately 12:25 pm, just 10 minutes after she left her residence.. I believe that information was posted on the #12 thread...Reason I remember that time is because I remembered thinking.. How convenient.. That is the exact time MP supposedly arrived home at the residence that day after Gail dropped the children off and left...JMHO..

How it morphed into being 23 minutes after she left her residence, I don't know...JMHO..

I'm curious how LE knew about the stop at the convenience store? Was there a sighting that wasn't reported in the media or did LE find a receipt in the car..her purse, etc?

 

[hollyblue]

As I see it IF it can be proven w/o a shadow of a doubt Gail made the decision to end her own life then MP is not the one responsible for her decision. In all reality, it would have been her own reaction to circumstances beyond her control that led her to a fate of that nature......However, I don't believe Gail made a decision to end her own life and I don't believe Gail had a freak accident either and drove off the mountain......JMHO..

MP has (from the beginning) attempted to prove Gail was mentally unstable and IMHO has set the scene for her death to be ruled as a tragic accident or a suicide...To my knowledge never once acknowledging foul play could be involved eventhough his wife had expressed concerns about someone following her..Her friends even stating they thought that to be the case too..

IMHO..His wife and the mother of his children is now dead and he isn't expressing any concern that foul play could have and is most probably involved considering she was saying someone was follwong her? IMHO... Something is terribly wrong with that picture.. JMHO

Excellent point Em. Her being followed was presented as "paranoid and delusional" ....along with writing down the license plate numbers.

One of the things that keeps coming up for me is her retreat to AL and then it always ending with her leaving. If this was her place of refuge....then why was she always leaving it also? Since her abrupt departure from the lake house was the last two week-ends of her missing...could it have been due to something MP said to her or in his relaying threats thru phone calls to her sister...or something totally different? Why did her place of refuge become so terrorizing?

 

[hollyblue]

I'm not that curious and it's really none of my business, however, I just don't believe Gail made a decision to end her own life...JMHO

ETA.. IF Gail was so mentally unstable WHY did he allow her to take the chidren to Alabama? WHY was he out of town with another woman while Gail was home alone with the children during the storms? Why wasn' t he at home with the children instead of spending nights away from home in downtown hotels with TH? Seems he really didn't care too much about the chidren IF he really thought Gail was so mentally unstable..JMHO

I would imagine most wives ...if they thought their husband was drastically paranoid and delusional...would not only not trust the children in their care, but remove them from the house as soon as feasibly possible. Nope, GP was his children's caretaker while he romped, imo. JMO, etc.

 

[Melodie]

HIPAA laws extend for patients after death. The release of information to authorized individuals such as an estate executor is largely left up to individual states and is predominately a judgment call made in court.

Furthermore, I agree that suicide is very unlikely in Gail's case for several reasons: 1) she was exhibiting very rational self-preservation-type behavior leading up to her death, 2) she was making plans for her financial freedom, and 3) women rarely choose this manner of committing suicide--more likely an overdose than a violent act.

Thank you, Ladydoc, I agree with you on this. To me, Gail's behavior was more manic, and she was planning for the future. I agree also that driving off that mountain would take a tremendous amount of courage and would be terrifying. I can't even imagine. I have never been to the location, but I hear that it is scary just standing there and looking over the edge. Gail was medically trained and I come from a family full of nurses. One of the greatest fears of those who have been in hospitals and seen so many things is the fear of not dying. I mean, what if I drive over that cliff and I don't die immediately? What if they find me and I'm in a wheelchair fed by a tube for the rest of my life? What if they don't find me and I suffer for days? I'm saying that medically trained people think about this because they have seen it and they don't want that to happen. Also, as a Pharmacist, if Gail wanted to commit suicide, she would have known many ways to do this without pain or failure. I also always come back to her children when thinking about suicide. Would she just drop them off at the house and drive away to do this? Would that be what she wanted them to remember about their last moments together? I believe that a mother thinks about this and that is not the way she would want it to end. While I know that she was definitely in a lot of pain and very distressed, I have never thought this was suicide. For me, that leaves two possibilities. There are so many red flags and oddities in this case. I don't know what to think. It's possible that we may never know the whole truth about what happened to Gail. JMO

 

[ThoughtFox]

HIPAA laws extend for patients after death. The release of information to authorized individuals such as an estate executor is largely left up to individual states and is predominately a judgment call made in court.

Furthermore, I agree that suicide is very unlikely in Gail's case for several reasons: 1) she was exhibiting very rational self-preservation-type behavior leading up to her death, 2) she was making plans for her financial freedom, and 3) women rarely choose this manner of committing suicide--more likely an overdose than a violent act.

I keep coming back to your last point ~ most women don't do a Thelma and Louise over a cliff as a way to commit suicide.

Case in point ~ there was another woman from Chattanooga who did drive away and commit suicide just a week after Gail went missing. She parked her car on the side of a mountain in Sequatchie County and just walked away from it. I don't know if she died from a drug overdose or some other way, but they found her after a short search with dogs. And although the woman had "a long history of mental illness," was much more logic to her disappearance and death than to Gail's. It was widely reported that the victim chose that mountain because she was fond of hiking there, and it was owned by family friends - many people choose to die in a place where they are familiar and feel a connection. With Gail, there's just no reason why she should have been on that particular road that morning, and no reason to believe she was suicidal, IMO.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/22/missing-east-ridge-woman-found-dead-sequatchie/

http://www.newschannel9.com/articles/williams-1001425-dead-car.html

 

[hollyblue]

 

[believe09]

I am unapproving posts that are directed towards other posters. There have been countless warnings about it. Please stop.

 

[bluenoser]

Thank you, Ladydoc, I agree with you on this. To me, Gail's behavior was more manic, and she was planning for the future. I agree also that driving off that mountain would take a tremendous amount of courage and would be terrifying. I can't even imagine. I have never been to the location, but I hear that it is scary just standing there and looking over the edge. Gail was medically trained and I come from a family full of nurses. One of the greatest fears of those who have been in hospitals and seen so many things is the fear of not dying. I mean, what if I drive over that cliff and I don't die immediately? What if they find me and I'm in a wheelchair fed by a tube for the rest of my life? What if they don't find me and I suffer for days? I'm saying that medically trained people think about this because they have seen it and they don't want that to happen. Also, as a Pharmacist, if Gail wanted to commit suicide, she would have known many ways to do this without pain or failure. I also always come back to her children when thinking about suicide. Would she just drop them off at the house and drive away to do this? Would that be what she wanted them to remember about their last moments together? I believe that a mother thinks about this and that is not the way she would want it to end. While I know that she was definitely in a lot of pain and very distressed, I have never thought this was suicide. For me, that leaves two possibilities. There are so many red flags and oddities in this case. I don't know what to think. It's possible that we may never know the whole truth about what happened to Gail. JMO

Wow, this is exactly how I am thinking too. Good point about her being a pharmacist too. As a mother, I just can't fathom leaving your children...no matter how depressed, especially in knowing that their 'not so nice' father would be the one they'd be left with and possibly his mistress. IF nothing else, and I hate to say it, but wouldn't one consider taking the children 'with' them, if it was suicide?

 

[lalalu]

After reviewing all the recent posts and considering the points made for each of the three theories, it still seems to me that a freak accident due to driver error (or maybe road hazard) would be the most likely.

Regarding suicide, the spot seems unlikely. Public road, middle of day. And how would one know it would be a sure death? Women generally don't pick violent methods to commit suicide and Gail's behavior prior to her death did not indicate she was "giving up".

The theory of murder for hire shares the same weakness of location...not where one would PICK to go undetected. (Just because it WAS undetected, doesn't mean that it really was a good spot.) Circumstances at the time likely contributed to it going undetected, ie: the area's concern w/ storm related issues - also it has been said that the house across the street was vacant or that there was a 70 YO man living there. Those houses are large and if he (or anyone) was in the back of the house, they likely did not hear anything.

A freak accident is just exactly that... a freak accident. Given the right variables, a wrong move of some type can start a chain of events that can only be explained by physics. It would be so difficult to replicate the chain of events, it is doubtful anyone could get in a vehicle and replicate the action. (or would want to)

It is such a sad ending to her story. I just hope she changed her will and insurance beneficiaries when she was making her plans, so that her funds will be in trust for her children.

 

[hollyblue]

CHATTANOOGA -
(WRCB) - Family visitation for Gail Palmgren memorial underway at St. Peter's Episcopal Church on Ashland Terrace.
Many Signal Mountain friends and neighbors are here, as are her brother, sister and other friends from New York.
Palmgren's best friend Arlene Durham has not been permitted inside the church, however. She has been told she is not allowed on church property and must stand across the street.

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/16417996/family-holds-visitation-for-gail-palmgren