TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

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respectfully snipped
For right now, though from what I read would dispute this, I would guess and its only a guess from what i have been reading, is that she came upon someone as she was heading towards the ring. Someone walking that came upon her, and not from a vehicle. I suspected not certain the crime was committed that same night in that area coming from home, in a vacant building or perhaps even where she was found.
This is what I believe, too. I think the perp approached K from behind while she was walking, and with the knife held to her neck, forced her to walk either to the field, or into an empty building, like an abandoned warehouse, for instance. I wonder if the surrounding industrial and commercial buildings were searched.
I know we are told she left home to go staking, but somewhere in the back of my mind is bugging me, and has me wondering if perhaps she was actually going to go meet someone around the skating ring, and used the excuse she was going skating as a reason to be going out at that time.
Though just speculating and guessing on everything.
That thought crossed my mind at first, but her mom said she was excited about the new skates, and that she wasn't interested in boys yet.
I still believe for now, she was killed in that area the same night, she was found not far from home, in an area close to nearby the route she would have taken to the ring. If she was taking someplace else, I don't see why they would bring her back to the same area she was reported as being seen at, or the general area of where she was that night.

Godnight
I totally agree with the last paragraph.
 
MrTT, I asked about the shoes. No official word yet, but I shared your theories.

Her legs weren't like you're imagining from what I have heard. This is why I do not think she was lying down on a flat surface. She was forced into a strange position.

She had new skates and was excited about skating and going to get doughnuts. I don't think she was interested in boys yet. I don't believe she was going all of the places by herself, so it is weird the police aren't sure where she had or hadn't been. But, information could be missing from articles.

She was held captive somewhere for a day and a half. I don't know where. But, there are several places close by.

I can't talk much right now... I'll be back to answer more questions.
 
Metro Police returned my call! I sent him our link. He says Kathy has two six inch binders full of info, so he has to study it.

Such good news, December! You did it, talked to LE!

I hope you will still consider trying to contact the retired cold case guy as well, Pat something, I think? He might be really helpful, IMO.

This thread has moved pretty quickly in the last week or so and I am still trying to get caught up with reading from where it first went "featured", so I am not posting a lot, as I do not want to be cluttering things up with questions that have been answered elsewhere, etc. But following right along!
 
I keep noticing that this article quotes a "medical examiner". Is that just the paper glorifying the coroner a bit -- or did a medical examiner actually weigh in at some point? (Just remembering there was no autopsy, etc.)

I don't know. I will try to find out.
 
Such good news, December! You did it, talked to LE!

I hope you will still consider trying to contact the retired cold case guy as well, Pat something, I think? He might be really helpful, IMO.

This thread has moved pretty quickly in the last week or so and I am still trying to get caught up with reading from where it first went "featured", so I am not posting a lot, as I do not want to be cluttering things up with questions that have been answered elsewhere, etc. But following right along!

Pat Postilgione is his name.

thank you for reading. :)
 
It is my understanding from reading half of the Nashville Retrospect article that the man who found Kathy’s body in the weeds was a member of a local civil defense unit that was involved with a search party searching for Kathy.

I am trying to get more details about that...
 
You pointed out something I hadn’t thought of. The killer could have been involved in military intelligence.

Those serving in military intelligence would have the same training as those in the special forces would.

It looks like the military angle is a good possibility if her killer turns out to be a trained killer.

yes.. there are several possibilities...

or it could be someone who had a "souvenir" weapon who'd read up/listened up on military techniques..

the main reason I wonder about it being something really strange is how long it has taken to solve it...
 
MrTT, she did not die the night she went missing. she was held captive for a while and killed before being dumped. I know many such murders take place all in one night, but hers didn't. she had time for bruises to form.

I have some questions to ask the police to clarify some of this. but, in addition to the injuries described in the scene, she had been beaten.

there are some unusual things about this case..

it is unlikely she was taken very far, but with a vehicle it isn't impossible.

but there were some places very near by... really quite a choice of them.
 
That's excellent news, December.

Regarding "the lot", have you come across photos of the original KK building at that location. It seems like I saw one awhile back.

ETA: I can't put my hands on the older photo, but the building was closer to the street than the present one. I think the original building and parking lot were smaller than they are today, as well. December also mentioned in an early post that Thompson St was widened in recent years. Therefore, the undeveloped portion of the property behind KK was probably larger than we see today.

I don't know who owns the lot... if it belongs to kk or someone else.

but the old kk building sat closer to the corner which is why it had to be torn down and a new building built. nolensville road was really crowded through there before.. for some years... probably not in 69. a whole bunch of businesses were just gone forever from that location since the road took up most of where they were.
 
http://search.proquest.com/tennessean/docview/239904415/14117FD3E153F0AE459/1?accountid=33208

The victim was walking to a Thompson Lane roller rink in her Woodbine neighborhood on a cold Nov. 29 when she was bound, sexually assaulted, choked and killed by having one of her own socks stuffed down her throat.

Now, this is from an editorial writer at The Tennessean writing in 2008 in response to a question from a reader who was a friend of Kathy's and wondered what had happened with the case.

However, CHOKED. This is the first reference in print I have seen to that.

The writer here, btw, is trying to be delicate in the way he phrases things. So, it sounds less involved than it was. But, he mentions specifically that she was also choked.

So, this brings us right back to nerosleuth's question.. was her neck broken?

Did the partial sock really suffocate her or was it incidential to the fact she suffocated because her neck was broken? (The sock did not help her breathing, obviously.) I don't know if they ever intended to stick it all the way down her throat or not. Maybe they were too rough with her when they gagged her and pushed it down father than they intended or maybe she sucked it down her throat trying to draw breath. Or maybe they did intend to kill her that way. Maybe they just were hurting her all sorts of ways and she died. (yes, this is all horrible to type)

Here is what Pat Postligione (until recently head of Cold Case Homicides) wrote in an email in 2008 to the writer of The Tennessean article:
"I have personally worked on this case and clearly understand what horror this young girl must have gone through," he wrote in an e-mail. "Because of new DNA technology, which as you know is constantly evolving, there is real hope that we can solve this particular case."

The article also mentions that Micky Miller felt they had a strong suspect, but lacked the evidence to arrest him.

Regarding the "choked" part:

I will jump in with a few thoughts I've had on this. I know there has been some discussion about how the damage to her neck/throat was done, and several types of garrottes, etc., mentioned.

What keeps popping into my mind -- and I think others may have mentioned this -- is something like a dog choke collar, made of chain.

It is horrible to write this, sorry. But, pulled very tight, I can see how how the links on such a chain might have left wounds that appeared "almond shaped" in photographs -- along with bruising, etc. He may have been tightening and releasing, etc., awful stuff, typical of a sexual sadist though, so several sets/types of wounds could have resulted.

December, from what you have heard over the years and read, etc., did you get the definite impression that these were "clean" cuts, such as from a blade, or do you think they could have been "crushing" cuts?

If the perp did have a chain or something similar, it makes it seem less likely, IMO, that this was a totally opportunistic/impulsive attack. That is, while he may not have been stalking Kathy in particular, he was looking and ready for a victim.

I don't want to go too far off on a weird tangent, but I did want to just mention Mike Debardeleben. Definitely a sexual sadist. His is a weird and long story, December -- are you familiar with him? He was never actually convicted of a murder, yet he is considered a serial killer. He wasn't tried for any murders, largely because he already had racked up forever-in-prison on counterfeiting and abduction/sexual assault convictions -- he let some victims go, but it is widely believed he killed others.

He just keeps popping into my mind for a few reasons. One being that a few other WSers and I have been looking at him as a possibility in another thread I'm active in, which I may post about here a little more later, so he is "on my mind".

But also because (1) definitely a sexual sadist, (2) he traveled widely and evidence is that he had many, many victims, (3) a presumed "kill kit" was found among his belongings that included a chain choke collar (4) he was very into bondage and exotic tying positions. One of his released victims described one that she said he called a Chinese Hog Tie, for example.

Also -- two women that he almost surely killed (though, oddly enough, did not appear to sexually assault) were left in "display" positions.

Couple things I want to check on about Mike D. a little more closely -- (1)his ties/travels in the Nashville area and (2)charges, which were later dropped, against him in 1966 (pretty early in his known life of crime) for the abduction and sexual assault of a "young girl". Most of his known victims were a bit older than Kathy -- he wasn't a pedophile, exactly -- but I have a feeling (not sure though) that early charge may have involved a younger girl -- and it would not surprise me at all if there were others.

ETA: Also just wanted to say that I am leaning toward the suffocation from the sock not being intentional. It is even possible, IMO, crazy as it sounds, that the perp may not have specifically planned to kill Kathy -- he may have been disguised, etc., he might would have left her there to live, if she could, after all he had done to her. Not sure about that, but I do tend to think her suffocating from the sock was not part of the plan -- it may have even angered the perp if she died "too early" for his liking.

Poor Kathy. RIP honey.
 
Backwoods, I don't know that much about the wounds on her neck.

I did look up some dog collars when we were talking about them, but I wasn't sure what was available in 1969. so I got bogged down in trying to figure that out....

thank you for the information about the vile individual...

I believe the person had a plan. I don't know if he had been stalking Kathy or if she just happened to walk into his line of sight the wrong time.
 
Backwoods... I made my reply short because I keep falling asleep... I need to do research more...
 
Backwoods... I made my reply short because I keep falling asleep... I need to do research more...

No worries, December! By all means, yes, you get you some rest! Healing dreams to you.
 
I'm just wanting to note one more thing myself, tonight.

I've noticed there are some recent posts about the/an alley in the area where Kathy was found. Haven't found in reading yet quite how that came up and where all it's gone, so this could be redundant, but:

It touches on something that kind of had me scratching my head, which is this quote from one of the articles:

"She was found in the alley on Grandview Avenue in a vacant lot with her roller skates still with her," Postiglione said.

http://www.wsmv.com/story/19024068/cold-case-detectives-seek-publics-help-in-grisly-killings

I'm not a city-raised girl and still, to this day, don't understand things like alleys and blocks, etc., too well, LOL -- but I couldn't understand how she could have been found IN the alley and IN the vacant lot, too...?

There are so many reports of her being found in the weedy field/lot, I'm sure that must be the case. But -- by Postiglione referencing the alley, maybe something about that alley has played a part in LE theories over the years...? I wonder if they might have found evidence there.
 
Backwoods .... Your theory may not be so far fetched !!!!!!!!!!

Mike Debardeleben began beating his mother about age 13
He was arrested at age 16 on a weapons charge
Police believe he committed his first murder around 1967
He would have been 29 at the time of Kathy's murder
Killed a lady realtor with two puncture wounds to her heart
Kathy Jones had a puncture wound under the left breast


.
.... (Mike Debardeleben) .... asked realtor Jean McPhaul in Bossier City, Louisiana, to show him some houses. She went out with him and never returned. After she failed to check in, they found her in one of the empty houses, lashed by the neck to a rafter in the attic. She had two puncture wounds to her heart, but she'd not been sexually assaulted. No one could determine a motive. It was an FBI agent who suggested that the motive was simply to kill for the thrill of it, or possibly to relieve stress. It was also likely that this offender would kill again, and DeBardeleben later became the chief suspect in the murder of another female realtor.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/debardeleben/evil_3.html

.
.... snip ......

Also, what about the puncture wound in the chest?
I wonder how deep it was.
- There is a puncture wound below her small left breast.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733
.........snip ............... I don't want to go too far off on a weird tangent, but I did want to just mention Mike Debardeleben. Definitely a sexual sadist. His is a weird and long story, December -- are you familiar with him? He was never actually convicted of a murder, yet he is considered a serial killer. He wasn't tried for any murders, largely because he already had racked up forever-in-prison on counterfeiting and abduction/sexual assault convictions -- he let some victims go, but it is widely believed he killed others.

He just keeps popping into my mind for a few reasons. One being that a few other WSers and I have been looking at him as a possibility in another thread I'm active in, which I may post about here a little more later, so he is "on my mind".

But also because (1) definitely a sexual sadist, (2) he traveled widely and evidence is that he had many, many victims, (3) a presumed "kill kit" was found among his belongings that included a chain choke collar (4) he was very into bondage and exotic tying positions. One of his released victims described one that she said he called a Chinese Hog Tie, for example.

Also -- two women that he almost surely killed (though, oddly enough, did not appear to sexually assault) were left in "display" positions.

Couple things I want to check on about Mike D. a little more closely -- (1)his ties/travels in the Nashville area and (2)charges, which were later dropped, against him in 1966 (pretty early in his known life of crime) for the abduction and sexual assault of a "young girl". Most of his known victims were a bit older than Kathy -- he wasn't a pedophile, exactly -- but I have a feeling (not sure though) that early charge may have involved a younger girl -- and it would not surprise me at all if there were others. ............. snip .......... .
 
Backwoods... I made my reply short because I keep falling asleep... I need to do research more...

... get some rest .... you have done a lot lately .... dont pressure yourself too much ... we will all be here as long as needed .

I like all your posts ... you explain things very well .... thanks.
 
Does anyone recall a person around that time that may have lived in a van, bus, or camper? Was there any traveling sales type person around during that time? How about a large ice cream truck?

It would seem it was someone that was close to the area, especially since they returned her to a spot near where she was taken from. Pretty risky if not familiar with the area, any traffic in the area. I understand it would conceal due to the tall weeds and grass, but still risky. I'm sure woods would be more convenient, so if woods are near there, then I would think the person lived very close by. Unless it all happened in one night, and not days later.
 
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