TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

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nola said:
I also noticed that this same named poster had similar remarks in the comment section of the Scene article. Makes me wonder if she has harbored fears that her dad was involved. There must be something there, for her to ask the question out loud in the first place and then post this on two different sites....hmmmm. :dunno:
I have a hunch that the killer was incorrectly cleared early on. I pray that whomever is assigned this case starts over from the beginning.
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That is weird that the same comment (more or less) is in two places. Those events are definitely playing on that poster's mind. But, then again, they would. So, IDK what it means. Good catch, I've read these things so much I didn't notice it was in two places.
 
nola said:
So many questions I would love to ask LE:
How long had Kathy's body been laying in the vacant lot before being found on Dec 2nd? What was the perp's window of opportunity to place her there? Had the lot been searched in between Nov 29 - Dec 1? Do they think he used a vehicle; were there tire tracks near the body or anywhere on the lot? Was a taxi seen in that area on Nov 29? Is that why they focused on Checkered Cab drivers?
Did Kathy leave home at 7:45 pm that night or, is that when her mom reported her missing? If she left late, she might have been more apt to accept a ride in the cold and to arrive sooner to have more skating time.
If there was blood found "here and there" in the lot, wouldn't that mean that she was still alive and bleeding at that location? Or, was the blood "here and there" on her clothing?
Gosh, this case should be solvable!
Such a horrific crime. Amazing that the funeral attendant found the sock in her throat and not the coroner.
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Or the blood 'here and there' could have been on her body from the abuse she endured. Or, possibly, he cannot say where the blood. She was violently raped. I think this was obvious in the photos. I hate to say that, but he is specific in other details, but uses very vague terms for that. It could mean almost anything, but he doesn't write this article that way. He tries to be precise when he can. IDK for sure. But, I will be asking the police.

I do not think (I don't know for sure) any vehicle was driven ON the lot. Probably more like beside the lot. On the paved road.

I don't think she would take a ride if she didn't trust the person. She turned down that one man. But the Rollerdrome bus, yeah, she might get on that.

It was so cold, I just don't see her out as late as these articles say... this is a girl from the south... 23 degrees is VERY cold to us. new skates or not.

I'm going to try to get some info from police.

i think maybe some things got reported wrong in the media and never were corrected because no one realized it was wrong or thought about it in detail.

also, i have thought what if she was on her way home? she was a shy, quiet girl. maybe some people just didn't notice her.
 
 
Why would a mother ask her daughter to turn around and look at her dead twin sister? If I was the mother, I would be screaming my head off.:shakehead:
 
The stabbing victim was Reba Kay Green. Rita was her sister. At first, I thought it was a really odd reaction, too. The sister was relating the story many years later, though. I have to believe it didn't happen quite the way she described it.
 
bessie said:
FWIW, the Retrospect/Nashville Banner article mentions a trace of blood on her stomach.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FEATURED TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969
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I did see the remark about blood on her stomach and maybe when they said blood 'here and there', it was all confined to her little body. I mention this because, I have wondered if he brought her back still alive and left her there to suffocate (this breaks my heart to think).

If the lot was searched for the first time on that Tuesday (Dec 2), the immediate neighbor had been out for the previous day, & the grass was waist high...seems like it's likely that Kathy had been there since Monday (around time of death). Making it likely that the killer placed her there sometime Monday morning. Just thinking about timing the killer's moves.
 
nola said:
I did see the remark about blood on her stomach and maybe when they said blood 'here and there', it was all confined to her little body. I mention this because, I have wondered if he brought her back still alive and left her there to suffocate (this breaks my heart to think).

If the lot was searched for the first time on that Tuesday (Dec 2), the immediate neighbor had been out for the previous day, & the grass was waist high...seems like it's likely that Kathy had been there since Monday (around time of death). Making it likely that the killer placed her there sometime Monday morning. Just thinking about timing the killer's moves.
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I have always been told that she died before she was put in the lot. This would be due to the unnatural position she was in when she was found. She had gone into rigor mortis while tied in some weird position.

Due to hypothermia, it is possible she began to become stiff before she died.

I don't know for certain if the lot was searched. I don't know how big of a lot this was. But, it was winter, so the weeds may not have been all that concealing.

I HAVE wondered if she died later than they think, however. Not by a lot though, but it's just a feeling. I think she was left very early Tuesday morning. I will ask the police about this.
 
If Kathy was 12 years old in 1969 ... the murder was likely at least 16 - 40 .... which would make him 60 - 84 today .

Detectives have mentioned they are certain who did it , but feel they dont have enough proof to make an arrest ... wish they could drop some hints.

As far as I can tell the house on 304 Lutie street is still there , the former roller rink building is still there . a Krispy Kreme with a vacant lot behind it is still there.

Pictures below
Best wishes
 

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Arnie M said:
If Kathy was 12 years old in 1959 ... the murder was likely at least 16 - 40 .... which would make him 70 - 94 today .

Detectives have mentioned they are certain who did it , but feel they dont have enough proof to make an arrest ... wish they could drop some hints.

As far as I can tell the house on 304 Lutie street is still there , the former roller rink building is still there . a Krispy Kreme with a vacant lot behind it is still there.

Pictures below
Best wishes
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Thank you for the photos and the good wishes.

I think you made a typo, Kathy was 12 in 1969. She was born in 1957.

I have wondered if this was a young murderer. My friend's murderer was only 17. Then, there was this very terrible rape/murder of a young woman in Nashville whose murder took one year to solve. Her murderer was only 15 years old. He came two years in a row to visit his sister, the first year he committed a terrible murder. The second year, he was arrested. People do not like to think about it, but sometimes teens commit very terrible murders.

It is very interesting there is still a vacant lot in the same place. I don't know if it is the exact same size as it was, but probably. I guess we are lucky that the locations are more or less still there. RD is a different business in the same building. KK has a new building set off the road a bit more. Kathy's house is a duplex (though perhaps it always was one... housing was at a premium when it was built). The vacant lot is still a lot, though now fenced (maybe it was then as well... IDK) and it seems they keep it mowed.

If the murderer dies I wonder if they can outright say who they suspected.
 
Arnie M, thank you for the labeled map especially.
 
I took a good look at the dates concerning the five girls whose murders are still unsolved in Tennessee from 1965 to 1973. I’ve noticed an interesting pattern here.

Wanda June Anderson, age 11, Thursday July 1, 1965, near the 4th of July holiday weekend.

Reba Kay Green, age 14, Saturday January 1, 1966, New Year’s holiday weekend.

Kathy Jones, age 12, Saturday November 29, 1969, Thanksgiving holiday weekend.

Glenda Marie Sirmans, age 13, Saturday November 29, 1969, Thanksgiving holiday weekend.

Patricia Sue Williams, age 13, Wednesday May 30, 1973, after the Memorial Day holiday weekend.

All of the victims of the five unsolved murders were girls in the same age range. All five girls were murdered sometime around a national holiday weekend.

All five victims were murdered in Tennessee in different parts of the state.

Wanda June Anderson, Reba Kay Green, and Kathy Jones were murdered in the Nashville area in Middle Tennessee.

Glenda Marie Sirmans was murdered in the Knoxville area in Eastern Tennessee.

Patricia Sue Williams was murdered in the Union City area in Western Tennessee.

I noticed a significant time gap between the occurrences of the five unsolved murders.

There is a six month gap between the murders of Wanda June Anderson and Reba Kay Green.

There is almost a four year gap between the murders of Reba Kay Green and Kathy Jones.

There is a gap of four years and four months between the murders of Wanda June Anderson and Kathy Jones.

There is a gap of three and a half years between the murders of Kathy Jones and Glenda Marie Sirmans, and the murder of Patricia Sue Williams.

I can think of two possible explanations for the time gap from between the murders if the killer wasn’t in the military. The killer was serving time in prison, or had moved far away (maybe out of state) from the Nashville area.

Now if the killer moved and lived in another area during the time gap between the murders in Tennessee, I don’t believe the killings stopped. I believe the killer was still committing other abductions and murders someplace else.

I believe that the killer’s M.O. is abducting female victims of the same age range sometime during a national holiday weekend, sexually assaulting and murdering the victims at another location, and dumping their bodies at a location somewhere near their homes.

My thinking is that the murders of Wanda June Anderson, Kathy Jones, and Glenda Marie Sirmans fit the killer’s M.O. of abducting, sexually assaulting and murdering the victims, and dumping their bodies somewhere during a national holiday weekend.

I suspect that the murders of Wanda June Anderson, Kathy Jones, and Glenda Marie Sirmans could possibly be related. But I have doubts that their murders are connected with the murders of Reba Kay Green and Patricia Sue Williams.

My doubts are due to the deviations from the killer’s M.O. in the murders of Reba Kay Green and Patricia Sue Williams. Both of those victims weren’t abducted or sexually assaulted, and both were found murdered inside their homes.

So with the exception of Reba Kay Green and Patricia Sue Williams, the other victims were abducted, sexually assaulted, and found murdered somewhere outside of their homes.
 
December .... thanks for pointing out my date errors , I was able to go back and correct them.
 
Arnie M said:
December .... thanks for pointing out my date errors , I was able to go back and correct them.
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^-^

All of these dates were a long, long time ago... Sometimes I get wrapped up in these cold cases then IRL beckons and I recall it is almost 2014! (And this includes the cc for times before I was even born.)
 
nola said:
I did see the remark about blood on her stomach and maybe when they said blood 'here and there', it was all confined to her little body. I mention this because, I have wondered if he brought her back still alive and left her there to suffocate (this breaks my heart to think).

If the lot was searched for the first time on that Tuesday (Dec 2), the immediate neighbor had been out for the previous day, & the grass was waist high...seems like it's likely that Kathy had been there since Monday (around time of death). Making it likely that the killer placed her there sometime Monday morning. Just thinking about timing the killer's moves.
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I understand, nola. "Here and there" could have several meanings, and each one would tell a different story. For instance, was blood splattered on the grass or the clothes lying about? Was blood pooled beneath or around K's little body? If so, that would tell us the attack took place on the lot. On the other hand, if she were transported to that location, there would be less blood at the scene. She likely would have been wrapped in something like a blanket, which would result in a different appearance. Or, there might even be traces of blood leading from the street or sidewalk.

The position of K's body and the placement of her belongings lead me to believe the attack happened where her body was found. So I've wondered if something about the blood evidence lead to the notion of a separate crime scene. It's not clear to me how that conclusion was reached. The family has lived all of these years with the nightmare of that poor child being held captive for a day or so, and if that's not the case, they deserve to know.
 
:seeya: Thanks for the pics, Arnie!

Nero, your methodical approach always impresses me. I think you're onto something with the holiday weekends. That's why I'm a stickler about including exact dates in the case threads. It is easy to get confused, though. :)
 
Have the police ever mentioned if they have any articles of Kathy's clothing , or fluid specimens that could be tested for DNA ?? ..... I have read most of the articles and did not see it mentioned.
 
Arnie, I don't know if you saw this post, so I'm quoting myself here. I pulled these facts from the Scene article. Most, or all, of her clothing was found at the scene.

bessie said:
***WARNING*** Description is graphic.

- Short blonde hair. Naked in the weeds,
- lying on her right side, back bent, arms tied behind her with plaid cloth.
- Her eyes are slightly open, and her head is pushed far back...
- her blouse tied around her mouth and neck.
- Her throat has several almond shaped cuts.
- There is a puncture wound below her small left breast.
- Blood is here and there.
- Her right leg is straight
- her left knee is drawn almost to her waist.
- both vaginal and anal penetration
- Her buttocks are nearly black from the bruises.
- What clothes weren’t used to bind and gag her are crumpled beside her.
- a little glove with a checkered, Christmasy design
- Her coat lies in front of her
- white underwear are wadded on the ground against her chest
- Scattered on the grass are her purse and a deck of her playing cards.
- Beside her thigh, on its wheels, ready to be picked up and put on, is a clean, white, leather roller skate.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733
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As for bodily fluids, or DNA evidence, we have this in 1998:
Because there was no medical examiner at the time of Jones’ death, no autopsy was performed. There was no such thing as DNA testing either, and blood tests were rarely used. As a result, little physical evidence was taken from the crime scene.
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http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733

But in 2009, a little hope:
"We'd actually looked at the evidence in the Kathy Jones case during some of the preliminary DNA testing, but with the advances that we have today, certainly that's a possibility," said Miller.
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Investigators said the Kathy Jones case seems to be most promising when it came to getting the DNA profile of the killer.
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http://www.newschannel5.com/global/story.asp?s=10774294
 
bessie said:
I understand, nola. "Here and there" could have several meanings, and each one would tell a different story. For instance, was blood splattered on the grass or the clothes lying about? Was blood pooled beneath or around K's little body? If so, that would tell us the attack took place on the lot. On the other hand, if she were transported to that location, there would be less blood at the scene. She likely would have been wrapped in something like a blanket, which would result in a different appearance. Or, there might even be traces of blood leading from the street or sidewalk.

The position of K's body and the placement of her belongings lead me to believe the attack happened where her body was found. So I've wondered if something about the blood evidence lead to the notion of a separate crime scene. It's not clear to me how that conclusion was reached. The family has lived all of these years with the nightmare of that poor child being held captive for a day or so, and if that's not the case, they deserve to know.
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Her being murdered right there isn't exactly comforting. I've freaked out really badly over it... being murdered this close to houses and businesses. this crime took a long time. it was detailed. the binding. the severe raping. the beating. the taunting stabbings. the puncture wound.

there wasn't that much blood at the scene. I have always been told that she had been dead for a while before being transported.

also that she was dumped quickly. to me her clothes sound like they were wadded into a paper grocery sack and dumped out beside and on her.

a thing that argues that the attack was not on the lot is the pristine condition of her roller skate. it was right behind her. if she'd been killed there, wouldn't it be bloody?

we did not invent the idea all of this took time and that she did not die quickly. the police told us. and they told the scene the same thing.

ETwhile meaning long enough she was Not bleeding hheavily also she died from suffocation as well
 
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