To those of you sitting on the fence....

[Holdontoyourhat]

How typical of IDI to make that concept the issue, when the reality for most RDI would be relief. Relief that the perp was finally identified and relief that it wasn't the parents after all. This is, of course, based on it being the REAL killer and not one of the RST's fake ones (aka Karr)
I for one, would not mind eating that crow. But I doubt I'll be needing any recipes any time soon.
BTW, as far as this case is concerned, we ALL have a 50% chance of being right. Either one of the Rs did it or they didn't. It's called an opinion, and we are each entitled to have it. I can assure you none of us would make that same statement to you, if it is proved that one of the Rs were involved.

RDI isn't really part of the effort to find the real perp. RDI really only serves to obfuscate what is happening at every turn. The best example isn't even the unknown male DNA being spun into 'potential mix of JR and PR DNA'. The best example isn't where RDI wants to fix, correct, or change the autopsy report into something a little more 'RDI'. The best example isn't where RDI wants us all to go ahead and disregard the information content of the RN.

The best example is RDI's reaction to news that PR spelled advise 'advize' consistently and the RN author spelled it 'advise'. This difference between PR's exemplars and the RN is a subtle yet highly objective and therefore a key item of evidence that wasn't discussed in the first year by anybody.

RDI really blew chunks on this one and didn't even know it: RDI's sudden and frantic knee-jerk reaction was to claim that PR's exemplars of 'advize' were deliberate misspellings designed to mislead LE even though LE never even noticed. It is the speed with which the claim was developed that nicely exposed the circular reasoning that has formed the basis of RDI since day one.

IOW rest assured that any new item of IDI-favoring evidence, whether it be unknown DNA, anomolies in handwritings, or whatever, will be best fit into a new RDI scenario created from thin air especially to accomodate the new information.

 

[Tadpole12]

Cannot be excluded from what? A RDI hosted party?

1. Published linguistic analysis excludes PR as the author.
2. US Secret Service handwriting analysis excludes PR as the author.
3. FBI, CBI, BPD did not provide any affidavit naming PR as the author.

While a couple of handwriting analysts claim PR is the author, a couple more claimed JMK was the author, with 99.9% certainty.

There is no consensus among ABFDE CDE's that PR wrote the note. If that consensus existed, then PR would have been arrested and charged with murder.

Coming up with one or two handwriting analysts just doesn't make the Ham Sandwich. The consensus does.

Hi Hotyh,

RDI hosted party?
hmmm ... all the talk `bout ham sammiès?

èxclusion as writer, that the point from which it`ls hard to budge`, or to exclude PR`s involvement.
Did all the RDI supported experts just jump aboard a runaway train?
With limited understanding of the methodoly involved in those results,
how can their determination be dismissed. IMO

 

[Tadpole12]

And for those who haven’t noticed Madeleine’s link over on the Fuhrman book thread:
(As SD said, it is definitely worth listening to.)
http://m.blogtalkradio.com/(A(ol7uOAqYygEkAAAAZWYxZjNlODUtZTk5Ny00ZDg5LWIxMWMtYzc5NTVlODRiZGM2smxm0XNN1DlVEyjdfJinTItt0Ow1))/default.aspx?pt=20&q=mark+fuhrman&g=17
(Pick the first one – The Levi Page Show.)

Hi cynic.

ty for the link.
even though MF skimmed over each case his comments on the revictimization of family members by the media was poignant.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Hi Hotyh,

RDI hosted party?
hmmm ... all the talk `bout ham sammiès?

èxclusion as writer, that the point from which it`ls hard to budge`, or to exclude PR`s involvement.
Did all the RDI supported experts just jump aboard a runaway train? Uh, yes. Nicely put BTW.
With limited understanding of the methodoly involved in those results,
how can their determination be dismissed. IMO

Do you believe a bunch of handwriting experts said PR wrote the note? And that nobody's doing anything about it? Because that is just how your post reads.

Instead what really happened is this: BPD made a concerted effort to identify PR as the author of the RN. They hired handwriting experts who did not name PR as the author of the RN. Plain and simple.

Are we discussing the same case? Its as if its a given that PR's handwriting matches the note, or 'can't be excluded' is now synonymous with 'wrote the note'. Its as if PR was found to have written the note, and for some reason that headline just never happened. Instead, we have unknown male DNA headlines.

 

[BBB167893]

Dusak Findings. "Richard Dusick (sic) of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note." (SMF P 200; PSMF P 200.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).

Like I said: he didn't say she didn't write it. He said that he couldn't say that she did based on the evidence that was presented to him, which at that time was so limited that Ubowski himself took issue with it. I wouldn't put too much stock in those preliminary reports were I you, HOTYH. And I offer that advice from a friendly place.

Now maybe you were saying Richard Dusak was only a Xerox machine techinician, right?

As usual, HOTYH, you're twisting what I said. Actually, I should rephrase that. I am not saying anything about that one way or another. A fellow US Gov't document examiner said it. So don't blame me.

Fits with RDI's impression of Beuf, Meyer, Smit, Lacy or any other person who was professionally associated with the case but did not kowtow to the regime.

You're just wasting time with that nonsense. I'm usually a pretty good sport, but even I have my limits.

RDI isn't really part of the effort to find the real perp. RDI really only serves to obfuscate what is happening at every turn.

The heck, you say.

The best example isn't where RDI wants to fix, correct, or change the autopsy report into something a little more 'RDI'.

I STILL can't figure what you mean by that.

 

[BBB167893]

How typical of IDI to make that concept the issue, when the reality for most RDI would be relief. Relief that the perp was finally identified and relief that it wasn't the parents after all.

:clap::clap:

 

[BBB167893]

Did all the RDI supported experts just jump aboard a runaway train?

Darn good question. Lacy sure didn't want anything from them. She wouldn't even talk to them.

With limited understanding of the methodology involved in those results, how can their determination be dismissed?

Even BETTER question!

 

[BBB167893]

Do you believe a bunch of handwriting experts said PR wrote the note? And that nobody's doing anything about it? Because that is just how your post reads.

Instead what really happened is this: BPD made a concerted effort to identify PR as the author of the RN. They hired handwriting experts who did not name PR as the author of the RN. Plain and simple.

Are we discussing the same case? Its as if its a given that PR's handwriting matches the note, or 'can't be excluded' is now synonymous with 'wrote the note'. Its as if PR was found to have written the note, and for some reason that headline just never happened. Instead, we have unknown male DNA headlines.

I'm eagerly awaiting Tadpole's response. Because I've got a few thoughts myself.

 

[Chrishope]

I like your comment " I feel the RN is a fake for either side"...
I am a RDI (big time)...
Some IDI like to argue that JB was never meant to be killed in her home-that infact, it was a kiddnapping gone wrong...why would a kiddnapper, who was supposedly ever so scrupulous in removing her from her bed, travelling in the house freely without attracting attention, leaving hardly any evidence behind, why would he find it so diificult in silencing JB WITHOUT HAVING TO KILL HER ON THE SPOT?? Surely, if he was intelligent enough to do all the above, then he must have anticipated that JB would most likely resist him, scream etc ....so why didnt he ensure that JB is carried out of her home without having to be put in a postion where he had no choice but to silence her by bashing her in the head???!!!
RN quote:
"be warned that we are familiar with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics"
Ok..so the intruder is familiar with something as high and mighty as law enforcement countermeasures and states he kept all this in mind and will know how to deal with it if need be....yet, he didnt anticipate that JB could possibly scream , retaliate etc??? so he was put in a situation where he simply had to kill her on the spot and leave the body there...therefore all his efforts in planning this extraordinary kidnapping were gone with the wind..
ARE YOU KIDDING ME???!!!

Let's take that one step further. Why would a "kidnapper" have taken her to the basement? Even if he miscalculated, and she had to be silenced, why take her down to the basement? Only LS could beleive a scenario whereby the "kidnapper" intended to shove her through a basement window while standing on a suitcase. No, if she had to be silenced then it would have happened between the bedroom and the ground floor of the house. The dead body would still be taken if there was any desire to collect the ransom.

If there had been a scream forcing the "kidnapper" to silence her, then the "kidnapper" has to assume someone in the household heard the scream. If there is a possibility that someone had been awakened by the scream, the thing to do is leave immediately. Why then go down the basement with no way out of the house and spend a lot of time doing nasty things?

The fact that the body was in the basement, and a lot of time consuming nasty things were done to her down there, tells us quite clearly this was not a kidnapping gone bad.

 

[redeemed]

Agree with you Chrishope... well said...
which leaves us with the "other" IDI theory- that this was purely for sexual satisfaction...and even with this theory..so much doesnt add up...

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Let's take that one step further. Why would a "kidnapper" have taken her to the basement? Even if he miscalculated, and she had to be silenced, why take her down to the basement? Only LS could beleive a scenario whereby the "kidnapper" intended to shove her through a basement window while standing on a suitcase. No, if she had to be silenced then it would have happened between the bedroom and the ground floor of the house. The dead body would still be taken if there was any desire to collect the ransom.

If there had been a scream forcing the "kidnapper" to silence her, then the "kidnapper" has to assume someone in the household heard the scream. If there is a possibility that someone had been awakened by the scream, the thing to do is leave immediately. Why then go down the basement with no way out of the house and spend a lot of time doing nasty things?

The fact that the body was in the basement, and a lot of time consuming nasty things were done to her down there, tells us quite clearly this was not a kidnapping gone bad.

Uh, my guess would be to sexually assault her. But, how could we ever hope to find reason or logic in the mind of someone who would do that to a child?

 

[DeeDee249]

Uh, my guess would be to sexually assault her. But, how could we ever hope to find reason or logic in the mind of someone who would do that to a child?

If sexual assault was what was desired, why not simply remove her from the home and make a getaway? Why take a chance assaulting her right there with parents and sibling home?

There was no getaway car. If it were real kidnappers, SFF or not, they'd have a way to leave- quickly. This was a neighborhood where the homes are rather close together. It really wasn't that late. Plenty of people are awake and walking around their homes at the time JB was killed (midnight).

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

If sexual assault was what was desired, why not simply remove her from the home and make a getaway? Why take a chance assaulting her right there with parents and sibling home?

There was no getaway car. If it were real kidnappers, SFF or not, they'd have a way to leave- quickly. This was a neighborhood where the homes are rather close together. It really wasn't that late. Plenty of people are awake and walking around their homes at the time JB was killed (midnight).

We sleuthers don't know what was on that street or neighboring streets that entire night. Why profess that we do?

 

[mrsselig]

i'm not a fence sitter. i shouldn't be posting, lol. i never post here but i read very very often and have for a long time. i am too shy : (

i am RDI. the only fence i ever sat on, was and still at times is, the fence of coverup for burke, or, possibly a close family friend that had some possibly damaging info on john. therefore a blackmail angle, why they agreed to cover up. the santa and the secret visit also made tons of sense.

i've often wondered if a santa in that last xmas parade jb was in . . . . (not not the neighbor, bill mcreynolds ) what if 'that' ''''fake'''' santa was a creepo, etc. and told her something . . . . still, to me the tipping point is the ransom note and it shouts RDI.

i bow to all the well-informed here. i usually keep my mouth shut and i love to read all of your theories. i am very passionate about this case. i want badly, to have a killer brought to justice and to have the mystery solved.
kudos to all that work diligently and are so much more articulate and astute, than i. : )
((just my amateur opinion, only ))

 

[Chrishope]

We sleuthers don't know what was on that street or neighboring streets that entire night. Why profess that we do?

Very true. There could have been a getaway car parked nearby, or around the corner, or whatever.

Which of course, begs the question - why didn't they take the body to the getaway car, and later try to collect the ransom? Why did they take her down the basement and spend an hour or more doing horrible things to her then leave the body behind?

The answer of course is that it was never a "kidnapping". It didn't start as a kidnapping. Collecting the princely sum of $118K was never a motive for the people who killed JBR.

 

[Chrishope]

Uh, my guess would be to sexually assault her. But, how could we ever hope to find reason or logic in the mind of someone who would do that to a child?

Precisely correct. She was taken to the basement in order to sexually assault her.

Since she was taken down the basement to be assaulted, we can dismiss the kidnapping scenario. Kidnappers would not have left the body behind, and even if they wanted to assault her, they'd have done that back at the hideout, not in the family's basement. We know there was never an intent to kidnapp and hold for ransom because the basement assault and leaving the body behind are both inconsistant with kidnapping.

I also agree with your statement about finding reason or logic. This is exactly why sleuths should not be concerned about motive. The motive will not be known untill the murderer is known - maybe not eve then, as the motive may be deeply rooted in insanity.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Precisely correct. She was taken to the basement in order to sexually assault her.

Since she was taken down the basement to be assaulted, we can dismiss the kidnapping scenario. Kidnappers would not have left the body behind, and even if they wanted to assault her, they'd have done that back at the hideout, not in the family's basement. We know there was never an intent to kidnapp and hold for ransom because the basement assault and leaving the body behind are both inconsistant with kidnapping.

I also agree with your statement about finding reason or logic. This is exactly why sleuths should not be concerned about motive. The motive will not be known untill the murderer is known - maybe not eve then, as the motive may be deeply rooted in insanity.

I was just guessing at that because, unlike you, I'm not actually sure. Could be prep for kidnapping. Blanket wrap, tape over mouth, and second ligature could be prep for removing JBR out of the house.

The ransom note and the basement tells you what the motives were. And there was no shortage of motives either. Its your choice as to whether or not to believe them.

According to the ransom note, the motives were hatred, nationalism, jealousy, revenge, and money. According to the basement it was child exploitation and self-preservation.

 

[Chrishope]

I was just guessing at that because, unlike you, I'm not actually sure. Could be prep for kidnapping. Blanket wrap, tape over mouth, and second ligature could be prep for removing JBR out of the house.

The ransom note and the basement tells you what the motives were. And there was no shortage of motives either. Its your choice as to whether or not to believe them.

According to the ransom note, the motives were hatred, nationalism, jealousy, revenge, and money. According to the basement it was child exploitation and self-preservation.

Don't by shy, when you get 'em right, shout it right out. She was taken to the basement to do nasty things, and to stage a crime scene.

We know it has nothing to do with kidnapping because she's in the basement. Preparation for removing her from the house - wrapping in a blanket, taping the mouth, ligatures, could all be done in her bedroom, or on the ground floor of the house. No need at all to go into the basement to do those things.

Additionally, the basement is the most dangerous place for the intruder (not that there really was one) because the only way out is through the window, after climbing up on something and boosting yourself up. The intruder wouldn't want to be down there with JR coming down the steps with a pistol in hand investigating noises.

You are absolutely right that the RN and basement tell me the motives - or more precisely they help me eliminate motives. No way does a kidnapper take the body down the basement, and no way does a kidnapper leave the body behind if he intends to collect the ransom. So, we know that the kidnapping part of the note is completely fake. This of course casts doubt on the entire RN.

Clearly money wasn't a motive as the perp left the body behind, thereby foregoing any chance of collecting the princely sum of $118K.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Don't by shy, when you get 'em right, shout it right out. She was taken to the basement to do nasty things, and to stage a crime scene.

We know it has nothing to do with kidnapping because she's in the basement. Preparation for removing her from the house - wrapping in a blanket, taping the mouth, ligatures, could all be done in her bedroom, or on the ground floor of the house. No need at all to go into the basement to do those things.

Additionally, the basement is the most dangerous place for the intruder (not that there really was one) because the only way out is through the window, after climbing up on something and boosting yourself up. The intruder wouldn't want to be down there with JR coming down the steps with a pistol in hand investigating noises.

You are absolutely right that the RN and basement tell me the motives - or more precisely they help me eliminate motives. No way does a kidnapper take the body down the basement, and no way does a kidnapper leave the body behind if he intends to collect the ransom. So, we know that the kidnapping part of the note is completely fake. This of course casts doubt on the entire RN.

Clearly money wasn't a motive as the perp left the body behind, thereby foregoing any chance of collecting the princely sum of $118K.

In blue are simply your ideas, not to be confused with facts or conclusions that we can draw with the information we have.

 

[Chrishope]

In blue are simply your ideas, not to be confused with facts or conclusions that we can draw with the information we have.

The important thing is that they are realistic ideas. Sensible ideas. Ideas that fit with the way things actually work in real life.