To those of you sitting on the fence....

[cynic]

Well thanks. One paper you cited showed secondary transfer DNA was detectable only 1/4 times as they described. And the scenarios you outline

"Other possibilities include:
· Primary transfer from an “innocent” male donor. An example would be kids playing “doctor” as suggested earlier by SD.
· Secondary transfer via hand contact by one or more of the following: JBR, PR, JR.
· Secondary transfer through use of a contaminated item such as a wash cloth or towel.
· Contamination and / or cross-contamination by someone involved in the collection, testing or storage of the long johns and panties."

We could directly test.

But this handwriting evidence leaves me speechless. It's like Madeleine and Dave has a force choke on me. The e looks the same. The handwriting evidence is one evidence that makes me wonder RDI.

Tell me something cynic, even if there is an innocent explanation for DNA, IDI could still be true, since the perp might have worn gloves and the DNA could be contamination. An analogy could be made to fingerprints, that unknown fingerprints could be unrelated to the crime, but the crime could still be done by an intruder (say Samuel Sheppard case)

The DNA Revisited thread has more.

With regard to the ransom note, I thought that the author’s use of exclamation marks and indentation levels was something that pointed strongly to PR.

I would agree that the perp might have worn gloves and the DNA could be contamination. I don't believe it but it is possible.

Do you think it is possible for an intruder to consciously imitate PR's handwriting i.e forgery?

Well that brings things down to the motive of the intruder.
Why bother trying to implicate or frame PR in that ransom note?
How much time would it take to learn PR’s handwriting well enough?
Where would the intruder obtain enough samples of PR’s handwriting?

 

[voynich]

The DNA Revisited thread has more.

With regard to the ransom note, I thought that the author’s use of exclamation marks and indentation levels was something that pointed strongly to PR.

I would agree that the perp might have worn gloves and the DNA could be contamination. I don't believe it but it is possible.


Well that brings things down to the motive of the intruder.
Why bother trying to implicate or frame PR in that ransom note?
How much time would it take to learn PR’s handwriting well enough?
Where would the intruder obtain enough samples of PR’s handwriting?

"Well that brings things down to the motive of the intruder.
Why bother trying to implicate or frame PR in that ransom note?"

Throw the scent off himself. Commit the perfect crime. Pin on the R's.

What do you think was R's motive to kill JB? Accident? Bedwetting rage? Sex games?

 

[Chrishope]

"Well that brings things down to the motive of the intruder.
Why bother trying to implicate or frame PR in that ransom note?"

Throw the scent off himself. Commit the perfect crime. Pin on the R's.

What do you think was R's motive to kill JB? Accident? Bedwetting rage? Sex games?

I don't think we'll know the motive until the killer is caught. Since we don't know, for sure, who the killer is, we can only guess at motive. That's equally true for IDI. Kidnapping? Sex murder? Silencing her because of prior abuse? SFF harming the US (Coffee came out my nose writing that one) ? Envy?

With IDI, you have several motives to choose from in the RN, plus any others you care to make up. Some make little or no sense (SFF) and you still have to explain why it's a RN when no ransom was ever asked for and the body was not taken from the home. Why did the crime morph? Why did motive morph?

Also the motive may not make any sense to a sane person, once it's known.

As for the RN pinning the crime on the Rs, the only problem with the theory is that the RN asks for the amount of JR's bonus. There could only be a handful of people who knew that amount, and why tip off police that "you" (e.g. the author) are one of the handful?

 

[voynich]

I don't think we'll know the motive until the killer is caught. Since we don't know, for sure, who the killer is, we can only guess at motive. That's equally true for IDI. Kidnapping? Sex murder? Silencing her because of prior abuse? SFF harming the US (Coffee came out my nose writing that one) ? Envy?

With IDI, you have several motives to choose from in the RN, plus any others you care to make up. Some make little or no sense (SFF) and you still have to explain why it's a RN when no ransom was ever asked for and the body was not taken from the home. Why did the crime morph? Why did motive morph?

Also the motive may not make any sense to a sane person, once it's known.

As for the RN pinning the crime on the Rs, the only problem with the theory is that the RN asks for the amount of JR's bonus. There could only be a handful of people who knew that amount, and why tip off police that "you" (e.g. the author) are one of the handful?

What were the R's explanation for this unusual amount?How did they explain how an intruder might know his bonus? Who did they identify by name as who would know this amount?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I don't think we'll know the motive until the killer is caught. Since we don't know, for sure, who the killer is, we can only guess at motive. That's equally true for IDI. Kidnapping? Sex murder? Silencing her because of prior abuse? SFF harming the US (Coffee came out my nose writing that one) ? Envy?

While you're wiping off your chin, I agree that SFF harming the US isn't going to happen solely by JBR's murder.

What about all the possible ramifications for a SFF having come all the way to Boulder, Colorado to do that for reasons we don't understand. Yet. A clue would be the ransom amount. Its not unlike Dr. Evil asking for one 'million' dollars. The only reason Dr. Evil asked for any amount was to be rhetorical. Dr. Evil already decided to be evil and being evil was what he wanted more than money.

Now, with evil in mind, reread the ransom note. Esp. the part about beheading a child. Now, have another look at those autopsy photos. Pretty evil stuff, eh? Maybe sit down with your cup of coffee and think about the ransom amount.

It was wrong, huh.

Its when the R's are exhonerated by new DNA technology, and the BPD is throwing their hands up that maybe, well maybe we can ponder just about any scenario.

What if ____________________ did this because ___________________________________?

 

[DeepThinker]

Let me preface this by saying that I have nothing to back this up...this is just my opinion and my opinion only, but when this case first broke, the very first thing that went through my mind is that family was responsible, somehow. I have my own theory, but I have not been a member here long enough to know what I can and cannot say without something to back it up. I don't want to violate any rules, but I will say that imo, this case was messed up from the start. Does anyone think that might have been intentional? But on whose part? Of course, I could be and probably am way off base here.

 

[redeemed]

Yes- this case was messed up BIG TIME right from the beginning...and dare i say it was messed up INTENTIONALLY ( thanks to John Ramsey's fortune and connections)...please read some previous threads ; you could also visit FFJ where you will get to know more details...

peace...

 

[DeepThinker]

you could also visit FFJ where you will get to know more details...

peace...

okay, I've been pretty good at figuring out the initials, and I understand the use of them, but what is FFJ? (I am sleep deprived at the moment, and the brain...well, you know :waitasec

 

[redeemed]

Its forums for justice...its like a wikipedia where this case is concerned...you'll get lots of info and debates there....enjoy!!!

 

[redeemed]

okay, I've been pretty good at figuring out the initials, and I understand the use of them, but what is FFJ? (I am sleep deprived at the moment, and the brain...well, you know :waitasec

Or, depending on your sense of humour, FFJ stands for "Foreign Faction Juniors" :crazy:

 

[DeepThinker]

Or, depending on your sense of humour, FFJ stands for "Foreign Faction Juniors" :crazy:

heehee :crazy:

 

[DeeDee249]

Let me preface this by saying that I have nothing to back this up...this is just my opinion and my opinion only, but when this case first broke, the very first thing that went through my mind is that family was responsible, somehow. I have my own theory, but I have not been a member here long enough to know what I can and cannot say without something to back it up. I don't want to violate any rules, but I will say that imo, this case was messed up from the start. Does anyone think that might have been intentional? But on whose part? Of course, I could be and probably am way off base here.

Well, some things were botched up because of the inexperience of the local LE (Law Enforcement) to deal with a kidnapping/murder like this. Egos came into play also, with the chief of police refusing help from outside agencies. It was the day after Christmas- they were all short-staffed because of the holiday week. (probably many officers with families took that week off while schools were closed). Then, the first officer on the scene did not open the door when the body was (though no one knew it yet). Then, Det. Linda Arndt, who was left there alone with the Rs and all the friends they had called over, should have cleared everyone from the house except the people who were there when the crime occurred. She did not do this, and worse, asked JR himself to search the house. He went straight to the basement and "found" his daughter, bringing her upstairs despite being told not to touch anything- forever contaminating the crime scene.
There were also some things that WERE deliberate. The DA refusing to allow warrants for phone records, and JB's school and medical records. Simply inexplicable in the light of a child found murdered.

 

[voynich]

I'm kind of curious about that myself.

I'm tempted to say he flew off to his swamp planet when he realized the Sith were too powerful.

That name no longer has any meaning for me :crazy:

 

[cynic]

"Well that brings things down to the motive of the intruder.
Why bother trying to implicate or frame PR in that ransom note?"

Throw the scent off himself. Commit the perfect crime. Pin on the R's.

What do you think was R's motive to kill JB? Accident? Bedwetting rage? Sex games?

Looking at the ransom note, I see that it may well have been written by a narcissist, perhaps someone with a flair for the dramatic, and someone that perhaps fancies themselves as a bit of a raconteur.
This fits Patsy Ramsey perfectly.
I can’t really settle on a motive for the killing of JBR. I do know that a lot can go on behind closed doors.

 

[voynich]

Looking at the ransom note, I see that it may well have been written by a narcissist, perhaps someone with a flair for the dramatic, and someone that perhaps fancies themselves as a bit of a raconteur.

which narrows the field to, what, 120 million Americans?

 

[cynic]

which narrows the field to, what, 120 million Americans?

True, but coupled with means, opportunity and other RN characteristics, the field narrows considerably.

 

[voynich]

True, but coupled with means, opportunity and other RN characteristics, the field narrows considerably.

"may well have been written" is rather impressive weasel phrases. Are you a lawyer?

The RN may "may well have been written" by a SFF w/knowledge of police tactics and countermeasures.

Those psychological characteristics are too subjective to be of use. I do think though the handwriting is much more objective and impressive evidence.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Looking at the ransom note, I see that it may well have been written by a narcissist, perhaps someone with a flair for the dramatic, and someone that perhaps fancies themselves as a bit of a raconteur.
This fits Patsy Ramsey perfectly.
I can’t really settle on a motive for the killing of JBR. I do know that a lot can go on behind closed doors.

This presents a somewhat pretentious characterization of the ransom note. That is, this characterization is presented as if it is a neutral characterization and then it is noted that the characterization just so happens to fit PR's personality.

If you could find some written or verbal testimony BEFORE THE FACT (before JBR was murdered) of someone, ANYONE, who stated that PR was a narcissist, liked drama, or thought of herself as a reconteur, then you'd have an argument. As it is it is obviously just another example of circular reasoning. Esp. because this is an understated characterization. Narcissists who like drama and are good reconteurs don't go around killing small children.

A more rational characterization of the perp doesn't limit itself to the ransom note, but includes also the weaponry, the injuries to JBR, the circumstances, and the victim profile. This produces a somewhat different and more accurate characterization than yours.

 

[redeemed]

Looking at the ransom note, I see that it may well have been written by a narcissist, perhaps someone with a flair for the dramatic, and someone that perhaps fancies themselves as a bit of a raconteur.
This fits Patsy Ramsey perfectly.
I can’t really settle on a motive for the killing of JBR. I do know that a lot can go on behind closed doors.

well said cynic...i agree...
its so weird how the so-called intruder just happens to have a disconcertingly similar handwriting to Patsy AND appear to be overdramatic too..
Coincidence??? Coincidence my toe....

 

[Chrishope]

What were the R's explanation for this unusual amount?How did they explain how an intruder might know his bonus? Who did they identify by name as who would know this amount?

I don't know the answer to these good questions. Maybe SD knows?

If they never were asked these questions, it's another failure of LE.