Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes Are Divorcing

[gitana1]

I agree with all of that, but how long could TC stall things? Kim Basinger was keeping her kid from talking to her father which is what triggered the infamous phone call. He was mad a Kim's manipulation of their daughter and she goaded him into getting exactly what she wanted. Something to use against him.

In the Scientologist videos it shows that Scientologists are trained on how to get someone's goat. (I don't think KB is a Scientologist) However, it seems they may be able to get to her. Maybe they're smart enough to keep everything above board, but I have doubts.

As one article writer linked in this thread suggested. TC should keep low and give Katie everything she wants because if Scientology becomes a key issue it will only hurt the church and TC.

I guess what I'm saying is that a totally sane human would behave the way you suggest. I feel TC is insane. JMO

I'm not quite following, Steely. I don't think a totally sane person would be in scientology or try to brainwash and/or alienate their children, which is what I think TC has done and will try to do with Suri.

Kim Basinger interfering when it came to phone calls is a much different thing from TC taking his little girl, putting her on a boat and having her spirited away from her mother, against court orders and refusing to bring her back for years, months, weeks.

He could perhaps fail to bring her back for a few days but Katie would, as I stated above, go into court the very next day and if he did not immediately return her, he would lose his custodial rights and go to jail. That's a fact.

Now, I believe KB alienated her child. It can be hard to detect and thus the courts won't always act on it. And, after years of it, since it can result in a child who does not want to be with the alienated parent, it can result in child custody orders that reflect the child's wishes and can cause the alienated parent to lose custody.

This does not generally happen over night. In Ireland Baldwin's case, it was a 7 year custody battle. Most courts don't even listen to the child's wishes until they are considerably older than 6-9. Usually, they start listening more at around age 10 or so.

If TC uses his scientology skills wisely, I'd predict that by age 11-14, Suri will not want much to do with her mom. That's the biggest thing I think Katie has to fear, not an "accident", especially since she has surrounded herself with security and the paparazzi hound her every move, and not some dramatic kidnapping that would immediately end TC's career and cause scientology to lose all credibility as a "religion", both in terms of their tax exempt status and future "marks" who may want to join and give up their incomes.

Two other things. First, I have heard reports that kids as young as five, six or eight or nine can be part of Sea Org. and actually sent out on ships at that age, but I have not heard of a witness coming forward to state that that actually happened to them. Instead, I have read stories of them going at age 14-18 or so. Prior to that, they are on ranches after both parents made the decision to leave them there.

Second, in the really creepy cases of abuse and probable murder, like Lisa MacPherson, Miscavige's wife and MIL, no one was/is really looking for these people or demanding information. No one related, at least, who could have obtained the ear of the authorities. (Lisa's family later sued but they were not looking for her or trying to get her out prior to her death).

Suri Cruise no longer has two parents involved in scientology. Thus, she's not going to a scientology ranch or on a scientology boat.

Suri Cruise is not an adult lost into a cult with no family demanding answers or trying to fight to get her out. She has an intelligent, famous mother with knowledgeable, lawyer family members. Miscavige is a nut, but he knows why he got away with what he did with his wife and MIL. He knows he can't get away with it with Katie or her kid. :moo:

 

[SyraKelly]

So, I want to pose a few scenarios: "Breaking news! Katie Holmes, soon to be ex of star and Scientology spokesperson Tom Cruise, is missing! Reports that she had been followed and stalked by scientology henchmen have been rampant. She had asked for sole custody of the pairs' daughter and speculation that she was leaving the marriage due to scientology was high."

Now, what do you suppose would happen then? Massive FBI investigations, screaming relatives and friends of Katie Holmes, every ex-scientologist getting much more than their fifteen minutes, every channel doing mighty exposés on what everyone would now agree is a "cult".

How would that help TC's career? How would that help build the ranks of Scientology? It wouldn't. It would do the opposite which is why I believe it would never happen.

I'll admit that Scientologists are an angry, dangerous lot. But in the end, they are a massive business and the business is money. Publicity such as they would receive if Katie went missing or had an "accident", would be fatal to the group. They are too smart to risk that.

Second scenario: "Tom, I'm getting ready to have my car pick up Suri after
her custodial time with you, will you be at home?" "Don't bother. Suri wanted to join SeaOrg. She is currently on a boat. They don't have outside communication. It will be several months before they dock."

What do you think would happen then? Well, I'll tell you. First, the police would be called. They would be shown a copy of the custody orders. They would immediately go to TC's home and question him. Katie's lawyer would be called at once. The next day, they would be in court on an emergency motion. The court would immediately grant temporary sole physical custody to the mother and order the return of Suri. If that didn't happen, TC would lose his rights to custody of Suri, to make decisions in her life and to visit with her outside of an unsupervised setting. He would then be held in contempt of court and go to jail.

If that was not enough to unearth Suri and return her to her mother, the FBI would get involved. There would be search warrants served and executed all over the country. The coast guard would get involved. Interpol would get involved. Scientology headquarters across the nation would be searched and leaders extensively questioned. Phone records, e-mail records, etc., etc., would be investigated.

Then of course, would be the publicity. TC would lose his career in Hollywood in a heart beat. Again would be the massive exposés, every channel would do specials, the careers, lives and mental status of every celebrity member would be examined, and they would all lose credibility as part of the Hollywood elite. The BBC special would be aired over and over, Dateline, 20/20, 60 minutes, all of them would air investigative journalistic reports about Scientology. Cries for the cult to lose their tax exempt status would be raised all across the nation and based on this: http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/overview.htm
there would be good grounds to repeal their tax exemption of public outcry and national sentiment were strong enough to create a pressure the legislature could not ignore.

Membership would drop steeply. Those on the cusp - not totally immersed yet or besieged by doubtful family and friends, or having doubts themselves after years in the org., would drop out. New membership would dwindle to nothing.

Do you really think any of that benefits this business? It just ain't gonna' happen.

What could happen, though, is what I and some others have repeated. Insidious alienation of Suri. Let me make a prediction based on my expertise in family law. TC will get either joint custody of Suri in some configuration close to 50% or he will get extremely liberal visitation rights to her, including weeks at a time for vacations, etc. It will be a sealed settlement agreement or non-public court order, such that we will not be able to see or know about most of the terms.

If it is an issue or fear for Katie, there may be some, rational restrictions on religious activities Suri can take part in, like SeaOrg. But other than that, the court will be unlikely to preclude her involvement altogether in the church. She may even be allowed to participate in "auditing", depending on whether or not Katie does a good enough job of really proving what that entails and how "confidential confessions" are not confidential and are used against the members. But, I have little doubt that Suri will be able to be involved to a large degree in her father's religion.

I support what jjenny says. No court is going to issue orders restricting custody or even religious involvement based on what has happened to some other members or what some other members say has happened. That would be a tiny bit analogous to saying, "Your honor, I want custody and I want my ex to be prohibited from taking my child to Catholic mass because many kids have been molested by priests."

It just wouldn't fly.

You need to show proof that harm has actually occurred or is seriously imminent (e.g., "A neighbor let me know that my ex is moving all his belongings out of the home and our child's passport is missing. He has threatened to abduct our kid out of the country and into a cult compound overseas, for years. Please issue emergency orders so I can pick up our child right now.").

Courts otherwise do not get involved very often in religious decisions. They don't prohibit religious involvement much or mandate it. The few times I have seen that they do get involved, the religion the child has been raised in to date is the one that the child is allowed to follow and a new one may, in certain, limited circumstances, be prohibited.

:twocents:

Thank you for this post Gitana- but can't Kate's lawyers go in there with all the ex-members *top people* who have left the *church* and tell the judge-look -this in not a true religion.Look what they have been accused of in the past-and show the judge the tapes that have come out about this group-all the lies,intimidation,splitting of families.I mean some judge has to look at all the facts and say-these people are using brainwashing here on its members & its not good.I mean-really-this man who started this group is a sci-fi writer & all his BS is just that BS-Some judge has to see through that.RIGHT-
I have had a few beers tonight-so please excuse my typos!!!

 

[LadyL]

I never saw what others saw in TC and I sure don't see anything in KH, nothing. As for SC, I see her as she presents herself, B-R-A-T! jmo

why, because you saw her crying or pouting in a few photos? most kids that age have a tantrum every once in awhile - it just so happens hers are caught on video for the world to see b/c her every move is being stalked

IMO it's incredibly harsh and unnecessary to label a CHILD in that manner

she's an innocent child and a victim of circumstances and I have not seen ANY behaviour that would indicate she is anything but a little girl trying to make sense of a crazy world

JMO

 

[Fairy1]

It may be Katie's concerns have nothing to do with sea-org or even scientology, but with alienation. It does seem that TC's older kids have been alienated from their mother and Katie has witnessed that personally. I can't say I blame her for wanting to avoid the same fate with her own child.

As a mother, I simply wouldn't want my children to be raised in a world where the very concept of a sea-org type of thing is acceptable - even if they were never members.

 

[TorisMom003]

After more searching I have come across a video of a young man testifying in court from 1994 about what his non-scientologist parents were told and what they listened to (a tape) that he bought to get them (his parents) to agree to let the young man leave school to join Scientology fully. They play the actual tape that his parents listened to in court.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYdpNpPDWMc&feature=related"]Scientology: Chilling Propaganda Tape for Parents- YouTube[/ame]

 

[TexasLori]

Thank you to Steely, HC, gitana and others who have provided much more info than I ever would have found myself, at least not easily and quickly.

This whole thing intrigues me. I have been fascinated with cults and what makes people become victims to them for some time. This one is especially interesting because it is so bizarre, and info on it is not easily available. So much is kept secret.

IMO, Tom Cruise's star has fallen quite a bit since his couch jumping, attack on Brooke Shields, and the Scientology videos leaked to the press years ago. The ones where he is saying (among other things) that as a Scientologist, if you see a car accident you are compelled to stop and help because you are the only person who can help because of what you have been taught. Since that time, it seems to me that he is not as popular with the greater public as he once was. He is largely viewed as odd and his religion has suffered in the public because of him and other things. I think this puts Katie Holmes in a better position for her fight. She likely knows things the church would not want made public, and they are in a position now to want to keep that out of the press. Which may translate to pressure on Tom Cruise to bow down and keep her happy. Who knows? I guess we will see.

As for Suri, spoiled or not, she is a precious 6-year-old who deserves the unwavering support of her parents. If one parent thinks the other is doing something with the potential to harm her, that child absolutely deserves for the other parent to do everything in her means to protect that child. Everything legal, that is.

 

[gitana1]

Thank you for this post Gitana- but can't Kate's lawyers go in there with all the ex-members *top people* who have left the *church* and tell the judge-look -this in not a true religion.Look what they have been accused of in the past-and show the judge the tapes that have come out about this group-all the lies,intimidation,splitting of families.I mean some judge has to look at all the facts and say-these people are using brainwashing here on its members & its not good.I mean-really-this man who started this group is a sci-fi writer & all his BS is just that BS-Some judge has to see through that.RIGHT-
I have had a few beers tonight-so please excuse my typos!!!

LOL. That was me last night!

Anyhow, not really. Because then, the court would be putting on trial what the government has deemed a legitimate religion. The court is not going to hear a parade of witnesses talk about their personal experiences with the group, if not directly relevant to Suri's actual experiences. Courts just don't do that.

If, however, Katie can show that probable harm may occur to Suri as a result of certain practices like seaorg., she can get orders prohibiting that particular activity, but it is highly unlikely, unless at a future date she can show the church has harmed Suri, that the court will interfere in private, parental decisions about religion, especially when it is the religion the whole family has practiced since the kid was born and nothing has changed in the church to make it more dangerous.

 

[gitana1]

Thank you to Steely, HC, gitana and others who have provided much more info than I ever would have found myself, at least not easily and quickly.

This whole thing intrigues me. I have been fascinated with cults and what makes people become victims to them for some time. This one is especially interesting because it is so bizarre, and info on it is not easily available. So much is kept secret.

IMO, Tom Cruise's star has fallen quite a bit since his couch jumping, attack on Brooke Shields, and the Scientology videos leaked to the press years ago. The ones where he is saying (among other things) that as a Scientologist, if you see a car accident you are compelled to stop and help because you are the only person who can help because of what you have been taught. Since that time, it seems to me that he is not as popular with the greater public as he once was. He is largely viewed as odd and his religion has suffered in the public because of him and other things. I think this puts Katie Holmes in a better position for her fight. She likely knows things the church would not want made public, and they are in a position now to want to keep that out of the press. Which may translate to pressure on Tom Cruise to bow down and keep her happy. Who knows? I guess we will see.

As for Suri, spoiled or not, she is a precious 6-year-old who deserves the unwavering support of her parents. If one parent thinks the other is doing something with the potential to harm her, that child absolutely deserves for the other parent to do everything in her means to protect that child. Everything legal, that is.

BBM. Me too!

I agree with all your post, in fact.

Anyhow, my guests are here and I am off to enjoy the Fourth and fireworks (I live right by Disneyland = fireworks!). So happy Fourth everyone!

 

[SyraKelly]

Thank you to Steely, HC, gitana and others who have provided much more info than I ever would have found myself, at least not easily and quickly.

This whole thing intrigues me. I have been fascinated with cults and what makes people become victims to them for some time. This one is especially interesting because it is so bizarre, and info on it is not easily available. So much is kept secret.

IMO, Tom Cruise's star has fallen quite a bit since his couch jumping, attack on Brooke Shields, and the Scientology videos leaked to the press years ago. The ones where he is saying (among other things) that as a Scientologist, if you see a car accident you are compelled to stop and help because you are the only person who can help because of what you have been taught. Since that time, it seems to me that he is not as popular with the greater public as he once was. He is largely viewed as odd and his religion has suffered in the public because of him and other things. I think this puts Katie Holmes in a better position for her fight. She likely knows things the church would not want made public, and they are in a position now to want to keep that out of the press. Which may translate to pressure on Tom Cruise to bow down and keep her happy. Who knows? I guess we will see.

As for Suri, spoiled or not, she is a precious 6-year-old who deserves the unwavering support of her parents. If one parent thinks the other is doing something with the potential to harm her, that child absolutely deserves for the other parent to do everything in her means to protect that child. Everything legal, that is.

LOL-I guess TC is not the brightest bulb-cause if this were me-I would walk away as fast as they can say the name Suri

 

[TorisMom003]

A video of Tom Cruise explaining Scientology Study Technology..........well sort of explaining it. Be sure to read the pop ups on the video. The video was put on u tube by a group that is set out to expose Scientology.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S800ilR9c4&feature=related"]Tom Cruise Explains Scientology Study Technology ! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[TexasLori]

Here is the video I was talking about. So bizarre.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0"]Tom Cruise Scientology Video - ( Original UNCUT ) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[SyraKelly]

Tomorrow I am going to dig deeper about the head of the *church* Migv-I don't know how to spell his name right now-LOL-But his wife disappearance has me wanting to know more about him & her!!!

 

[TexasLori]

Tomorrow I am going to dig deeper about the head of the *church* Migv-I don't know how to spell his name right now-LOL-But his wife disappearance has me wanting to know more about him & her!!!

Please let us know what you find.

 

[TorisMom003]

To add to my above post.

What would happen if during a trip to visit her father she was placed on a Seaorg ship and sailed away? With TC's wealth and power what do you believe would happen to him?

I'm not trying to be a wiseguy. I really want to know what consequences he would face.

From the research I have been doing SeaOrg has not had ships since 1975. It is land based. In 1987 they purchased a ship called "La Bohème", which they later renamed "Freewinds". The highest levels of Scientology are taught on this ship. In April 2008, "Freewinds" was sealed for extensive asbestos contamination. SeaOrg's land bases are located in several places around the world. Only SeaOrg members are staff members in Scientology's Advanced Organizations.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Org"]Sea Org - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
http://exscientologykids.com/seaorg.html

 

[Herding Cats]

SNIPPED The ones where he is saying (among other things) that as a Scientologist, if you see a car accident you are compelled to stop and help because you are the only person who can help because of what you have been taught.

What Cruise is talking about is (from what I remember) the technology called "touch back". The premise is that whenever we are injured, our bodies hold that memory, and it can cause additional pain, because we are fearful of more pain. Thus we block out experiences of pain, which will come out/backfire at some time, and cause more pain. It's a repressed memory with some sort of power to magnify. And it's thought that if you experience the actual pain, it is less devastating to the person hurting than if you block it out.

And there is also a component of transferred energy, from your body to the item you were hurt with (a car accident, a bee sting, et cetera), and that item has also transferred energy to you, thus creating a block of pain.

The touch back is done, supposedly, to reconnect the soul to the body, so that pain can be felt and experienced at the actual level, and not a greater, imagined, built up level. What you/the sci practitioner does, is literally touch back to the item, to transfer the energy *back* to the item instead of "storing" it.

Say, for example, you fell off your bike and hit the curb. Your knee is bloody and skinned. In a touchback, you place your knee to the curb, and "experience the pain fully", and repeatedly do that until there is no more pain to experience. Thus the energy has been adequately re-transferred, and you're no longer hurting. If it is unsuccessful, the practitioner then instructs the sufferer to "return to an earlier time where you experienced the same pain. Feel it fully." And so on. Until the sufferer has no more pain.

That is one aspect of what Cruise is talking about when he says "we are the ONLY ones who can help." He believes that scientology (please note the lack of capitalization...it does not deserve status as a proper name) has created a way to "handle" issues like this, and that only scientologists can free the pain sufferer from repressed pain memories, which are a block to feeling life fully.

That's the general idea behind a touchback. It's been a very long time since I was exposed to that practice, so I may have some of the explanations wrong, or the concepts a tad off. But that's the basic idea.

Personally, I prefer vicodin to touchback, but to each their own. LOL.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Steely Dan]

LOL. That was me last night!

Anyhow, not really. Because then, the court would be putting on trial what the government has deemed a legitimate religion. The court is not going to hear a parade of witnesses talk about their personal experiences with the group, if not directly relevant to Suri's actual experiences. Courts just don't do that.

If, however, Katie can show that probable harm may occur to Suri as a result of certain practices like seaorg., she can get orders prohibiting that particular activity, but it is highly unlikely, unless at a future date she can show the church has harmed Suri, that the court will interfere in private, parental decisions about religion, especially when it is the religion the whole family has practiced since the kid was born and nothing has changed in the church to make it more dangerous.

Couldn't a judge rule that new evidence accumulated since the original decision has now revealed it to be a cult? It would probably rise up the ladder of courts I'd think. :waitasec:

 

[TorisMom003]

There is very little to be found about the missing wife of DM. I've done all kind of searches and not much at all pops up about her. Lots pop up about DM himself though. I did notice that T Davis claims to know exactly where the missing wife is.

 

[gitana1]

Couldn't a judge rule that new evidence accumulated since the original decision has now revealed it to be a cult? It would probably rise up the ladder of courts I'd think. :waitasec:

You mean new info since the gov determined they were a tax exempt religion? Well, no. The family court is not going to put the religion on trial in that manner.

If there were specific threats, such as threats to the child herself or an overall environment that indicated imminent threat of death to the child, then they would explore those aspects and rule accordingly. But otherwise, hundreds of stories unrelated to the Cruise family, by ex-members of a group that has hundreds of thousands of members, is not going to get air time in the family court.

Courts are careful not to dissect religions.

An example of when they can act would be the Kiri Jewell case. She lived on a compound with her mother (Branch Davidians). She visited her father now and again. Then he got wind of the suicide drills and war drills, the hard core physical and sexual abuse of all kids at the compound and how Kiri was being specifically groomed to be the next wife of Koresh. He had a hearing and got custody.

This is not close to what is going on with scientology which has hundreds of thousands of members all over the world.:moo:

 

[Steely Dan]

You mean new info since the gov determined they were a tax exempt religion? Well, no. The family court is not going to put the religion on trial in that manner.

If there were specific threats, such as threats to the child herself or an overall environment that indicated imminent threat of death to the child, then they would explore those aspects and rule accordingly. But otherwise, hundreds of stories unrelated to the Cruise family, by ex-members of a group that has hundreds of thousands of members, is not going to get air time in the family court.

Courts are careful not to dissect religions.

An example of when they can act would be the Kiri Jewell case. She lived on a compound with her mother (Branch Davidians). She visited her father now and again. Then he got wind of the suicide drills and war drills, the hard core physical and sexual abuse of all kids at the compound and how Kiri was being specifically groomed to be the next wife of Koresh. He had a hearing and got custody.

This is not close to what is going on with scientology which has hundreds of thousands of members all over the world.:moo:

scientology doesn't do things that hideous, but they do things that are really bad. JMO

 

[21merc7]

It's only been a week or so right? The bitterness begins:

Tom Cruise Katie is Using Suri As a Weapon


"Although Tom now has "absolutely no contact with Katie," his people are negotiating/bickering with Katie's people over when and how Tom can talk to Suri. We're told Tom does speak with his daughter by phone at least once a day, but sources connected with Tom say it hasn't been easy."

more at link:

http://www.tmz.com/2012/07/05/tom-cruise-katie-holmes-suri-divorce-contact/

ETA: If you note from the entire article, he talks to Suri daily. How is that keeping her away from him? He was back in the U.S. between films, but he stayed in LA, not NY. How is that keeping Suri from him? He chose to hang out in LA not go to see his daughter....That is his choice. I think we all know he can afford a hotel room or even a flat if he wanted one. Seems he is keeping himself from his daughter to me. I think the first hearing is the 17th, so he can wait to have plans written out for him by a few attorneys and a Judge since he cannot seem to do this on his own.