Flight to London Gatwick crashes at airport in India .June 12 th 2025

[Dotta]

"Did a fuel switch error ​

cause the fatal Air India Boeing 787 crash?​

It was reported that attention is on the switches,
which supply fuel to the plane’s two engines.

The available data, however,
has not yet confirmed whether the switches were improperly, inadvertently, or deliberately activated.

U.S. aviation safety expert John Cox told media
that these switches are designed to be resistant to accidental movement.

'You can't bump them and they move',
he said.

Shutting one off
would result in an almost immediate loss of power.

So far,
investigators have found no indications of mechanical failure
and no bulletins have been issued to airlines operating the 787."

Did a fuel switch error cause the fatal Air India Boeing 787 crash? - The Economic Times

m-economictimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[indicolite22]

Maybe.

Due to pilot rest requirements, ultra long range flights need relief flight crew on board. They then rotate to flight duties. I don't know if Mumbai to London is long enough to need relief pilots though.

There is a mini crew rest cabin on the plane. But a relief flight crew might have picked the jump seat for a while.

IIRC, there were only two pilots on board. The other ten crew members were cabin crew.

 

[ElizB]

It would be interesting to know. The cut off switches are almost on the floor near the jump seat. Since 9/11 I doubt anyone would be allowed to sit there. You never know. I am wondering whether they could be kicked off by someone in the seat.

I looked to see if they could have been switched off instead of raising the landing gear, just unlikely.

I don’t know if it’s possible to inadvertently hit the cutoff on both switches. Looks like they have to be lifted before they can change position.

According The Air Current article, the landing gear isn’t controlled by the RAT. It would have remained inactive until the engine-driven hydraulics were restored or the APU activated.

 

[australianwebsleuth]

I don’t know if it’s possible to inadvertently hit the cutoff on both switches. Looks like they have to be lifted before they can change position.

According The Air Current article, the landing gear isn’t controlled by the RAT. It would have remained inactive until the engine-driven hydraulics were restored or the APU activated.

I was referring to the position of the undercarriage switch. It is nowhere near the engine kill switches.

No real possibility of an accident where the switches are accidentally knocked off imho.

Sometimes people do things without thinking or are mentally distracted. That is why the term inadvertent is used. The other possibility is murder/suicide.

I think these switches need an engineering solution to make it harder to do.

I doubt we will ever know whether this was a deliberate crime or not.

 

[Charlot123]

I agree, sadly the days of regular people getting to joy ride in the jump seat are over.

But.... due to pilot rest requirements, there could have been relief flight crew on board. One then decides to sit in the jump seat for the take off?

The problem is, there is no one to tell. Unless there was some relative making video of the crowd departing?
Clive Kunder was not super experienced IMHO. Could there have been an observer on board?

 

[Charlot123]

I was referring to the position of the undercarriage switch. It is nowhere near the engine kill switches.

No real possibility of an accident where the switches are accidentally knocked off imho.

Sometimes people do things without thinking or are mentally distracted. That is why the term inadvertent is used. The other possibility is murder/suicide.

I think these switches need an engineering solution to make it harder to do.

I doubt we will ever know whether this was a deliberate crime or not.

If they are accidentally switched off during cabin maintenance between the flights, or during refueling, i assume, that the plane won't take off?

Or can there be a minimal amount of fuel in the tubing connecting the engines with the fuel tanks to allow takeoff, but that would be all?

What I mean, there are two fuel tanks in the wings and one in the fuselage. Dreamilner is fuel-efficient. If the switch cuts off supplies of fuel to the engines, but not just immediately before the engines, there may be some fuel left.

I can imagine the switches being switched off during refueling - maybe it is not necessary, but who knows how some humans operate - and forgetfully not switched back on.

Then the situation is like leaving the key to the car at home, but the place being close to the garage - sometimes there is enough signal to switch on the engine and even drive to work, but then one realizes that he can't drive back home.

Or, when the fuel shows "empty" but there is enough to drive several miles.

Something similar...

I remember that the plane used rather a lengthy part of the runway to take off, as if there was not enough lift in the beginning.

I wonder if it was maintenance on the ground.

 

[Cryptic]

If they are accidentally switched off during cabin maintenance between the flights, or during refueling, i assume, that the plane won't take off?

I don't know. But...

- Aircraft have check lists to ensure that they are configured properly for take off. I imagine that large passenger jet check lists are pretty comprehensive. Proper fuel flow settings could well be part of the check list.

Though pilots have been known to rush check lists, ideally passenger jet pilots do the full check list each and every time- no matter their experience level or confidence level.

- A You Tube Pilot who flies the Boeing 787 said that two separate loud alarms will sound if the planes big brain computer senses that the flaps are not configured right for the airport and altitude regarding take off.

He added that each flap alarm must be over ridden manually in a process that is more involved than: "Sigh, another annoying alarm about something we already know- one mouse click and it goes away"

Returning to fuel..... my bet is that if there are alarms to prevent disasterous take offs from occurring due to incorrect flap settings, there could also be alarms to prevent take off with out the fuel pumps on etc.

 

[australianwebsleuth]

If they are accidentally switched off during cabin maintenance between the flights, or during refueling, i assume, that the plane won't take off?

Or can there be a minimal amount of fuel in the tubing connecting the engines with the fuel tanks to allow takeoff, but that would be all?

What I mean, there are two fuel tanks in the wings and one in the fuselage. Dreamilner is fuel-efficient. If the switch cuts off supplies of fuel to the engines, but not just immediately before the engines, there may be some fuel left.

I can imagine the switches being switched off during refueling - maybe it is not necessary, but who knows how some humans operate - and forgetfully not switched back on.

Then the situation is like leaving the key to the car at home, but the place being close to the garage - sometimes there is enough signal to switch on the engine and even drive to work, but then one realizes that he can't drive back home.

Or, when the fuel shows "empty" but there is enough to drive several miles.

Something similar...

I remember that the plane used rather a lengthy part of the runway to take off, as if there was not enough lift in the beginning.

I wonder if it was maintenance on the ground.

No the engines would not of even started. The switches cut power to the engine fuel pumps. This explains why the Ram turbine deployed. The engine generators stopped.

Someone has turned the engines off immediately after take off. Was it a brain fart instead of putting the undercarriage up?

There are lot of human factors that are involved in catastrophes; Anger, lack of sleep, medication, marital issues etc….. Mind is not on the job.

The investigation needs to look at both pilots closely.

I note that the survivors talk about the engines revving up before it crashed. Maybe they realised what happened and tried to recover.

 

[IQuestion]

No the engines would not of even started. The switches cut power to the engine fuel pumps. This explains why the Ram turbine deployed. The engine generators stopped.

Someone has turned the engines off immediately after take off. Was it a brain fart instead of putting the undercarriage up?

There are lot of human factors that are involved in catastrophes; Anger, lack of sleep, medication, marital issues etc….. Mind is not on the job.

The investigation needs to look at both pilots closely.

I note that the survivors talk about the engines revving up before it crashed. Maybe they realised what happened and tried to recover.

bbm above AUSTRALIANWEBSLEUTH You have raised many interesting possibilities and I had just finished reading an article I found "disturbingly odd."
"I told him, ‘Your father is too old to be alone.' And he said, "Just one or two more flights...then I'm just going to be with Papa."'
Captain Sumeet Sabharwal: ‘Just one or two flights left, then I am going to be just with Papa': Air India pilot's last words haunt neighbours as Powai says goodbye to Captain Sumeet Sabharwal | Mumbai News - Times of India
Read more at:
Captain Sumeet Sabharwal: ‘Just one or two flights left, then I am going to be just with Papa': Air India pilot's last words haunt neighbours as Powai says goodbye to Captain Sumeet Sabharwal | Mumbai News - Times of India

Had the captain recently contacted his HR and tell them he wanted to retire? Was he depressed
over his aging Father's health? Why not just consider hiring a caregiver?
Something just seems so "off" for lack of a better word. Family issues (Y) marital issues (N).

 

[Charlot123]

bbm above AUSTRALIANWEBSLEUTH You have raised many interesting possibilities and I had just finished reading an article I found "disturbingly odd."
"I told him, ‘Your father is too old to be alone.' And he said, "Just one or two more flights...then I'm just going to be with Papa."'
Captain Sumeet Sabharwal: ‘Just one or two flights left, then I am going to be just with Papa': Air India pilot's last words haunt neighbours as Powai says goodbye to Captain Sumeet Sabharwal | Mumbai News - Times of India
Read more at:
Captain Sumeet Sabharwal: ‘Just one or two flights left, then I am going to be just with Papa': Air India pilot's last words haunt neighbours as Powai says goodbye to Captain Sumeet Sabharwal | Mumbai News - Times of India

Had the captain recently contacted his HR and tell them he wanted to retire? Was he depressed
over his aging Father's health? Why not just consider hiring a caregiver?
Something just seems so "off" for lack of a better word. Family issues (Y) marital issues (N).

Well, to start with, a "good Indian boy" who's unmarried at 55 would be questionable. Of two options that come to mind (one obvious, but maybe less of a problem in a big urban city and a high-paid job), and the other, purely psychological, was he the only child, "the golden boy" whom the parents didn't want to share with anyone, or were the parents too controlling?

I would start with this; why unmarried? Or was he divorced (Indian wives leave, too, but usually for a very good reason)?

Anyhow, being the oldest/only son and living with the dad would be probably protective from suicide. He had the dad to take care of.
Likewise, he took care of passengers for many years. This, and his crew, would IMHO add one more layer of responsibility there.

We have people like Zakaria Ahmed Shah, but IMHO it was more an aberrant form of political terrorism because it is well-understood what he protested against.

Looking towards own lonely old age is different. I'd start here.

And, of the two pilots, he'd know the plane better.

On the other hand, the young pilot, not too experienced but with the family in aviation, could have had own problems too.

Or maybe it could be momentous lapse of consciousness, like an automatism during a micro-seizure? Nothing planned?

I am thinking of how easy or difficult, practically, it would be to switch off both switches? I assume it takes some force? And would the black box be able to tell from what side it was done?

Could someone be standing above the pilots and do it by the foot, btw?

 

[Charlot123]

I don't know. But...

- Aircraft have check lists to ensure that they are configured properly for take off. I imagine that large passenger jet check lists are pretty comprehensive. Proper fuel flow settings could well be part of the check list.

Though pilots have been known to rush check lists, ideally passenger jet pilots do the full check list each and every time- no matter their experience level or confidence level.

- A You Tube Pilot who flies the Boeing 787 said that two separate loud alarms will sound if the planes big brain computer senses that the flaps are not configured right for the airport and altitude regarding take off.

He added that each flap alarm must be over ridden manually in a process that is more involved than: "Sigh, another annoying alarm about something we already know- one mouse click and it goes away"

Returning to fuel..... my bet is that if there are alarms to prevent disasterous take offs from occurring due to incorrect flap settings, there could also be alarms to prevent take off with out the fuel pumps on etc.

I am thinking so, too.

So the pilot could not have switched them off when going through the check lists because it is done on the ground.

Is the cabin door closed during the takeoff? One of the pilots could have been somehow incapacitated if it was planned...

 

[Deleted member 367982]

If something failed on the aircraft and a warning alarm was activated surely it would have been picked up on a black box.

When the survivor of the plane jumped out and walked away, I wondered how that was possible when he was sitting next to a wing load of fuel that exploded almost immediately it crashed. Has his miracle escape been explained?

 

[australianwebsleuth]

I am thinking so, too.

So the pilot could not have switched them off when going through the check lists because it is done on the ground.

Is the cabin door closed during the takeoff? One of the pilots could have been somehow incapacitated if it was planned...

Those switches stop the engine dead. The aircraft will not taxi let alone take off.

Turning those switches off is the only scenario that makes sense. Obviously the experts also think this is what happened. The question is why?

In some ways it’s reassuring that it is not a major failure of the aircraft.

 

[LadyL]

No the engines would not of even started. The switches cut power to the engine fuel pumps. This explains why the Ram turbine deployed. The engine generators stopped.

Someone has turned the engines off immediately after take off. Was it a brain fart instead of putting the undercarriage up?

There are lot of human factors that are involved in catastrophes; Anger, lack of sleep, medication, marital issues etc….. Mind is not on the job.

The investigation needs to look at both pilots closely.

I note that the survivors talk about the engines revving up before it crashed. Maybe they realised what happened and tried to recover.

[bbm]

I'm behind reading up on this accident but I noticed you said 'survivors'. Was there more than one?

 

[australianwebsleuth]

[bbm]

I'm behind reading up on this accident but I noticed you said 'survivors'. Was there more than one?

The ones on the ground who witnessed what happened.

 

[Dotta]

"The fuel shutoff toggle switches
are located on the center console
of the 787 behind the power levers.

They are shielded by brackets on either side of the console to help prevent involuntary actuation;

and activating the switches
requires pulling the handle up
before it can be toggled between the 'Run' and 'Cutoff' positions.

The emergency switches are meant to be used in the event of an engine fire,
among other reasons."

Fuel Cutoff Switches Eyed In Air India Dreamliner Crash

“Improper, inadvertent, or intentional actions" cannot be ruled out.

avweb.com

 

[Charlot123]

"The fuel shutoff toggle switches
are located on the center console
of the 787 behind the power levers.

They are shielded by brackets on either side of the console to help prevent involuntary actuation;

and activating the switches
requires pulling the handle up
before it can be toggled between the 'Run' and 'Cutoff' positions.

The emergency switches are meant to be used in the event of an engine fire,
among other reasons."

Fuel Cutoff Switches Eyed In Air India Dreamliner Crash

“Improper, inadvertent, or intentional actions" cannot be ruled out.

avweb.com

So the cockpit door is closed during the takeoff, right? I don’t know whether it is locked. If locked, theoretically the crew has the number to override it and there is at least one crew member sitting outside on the “flipping seat” (don’t know how to call it) outside next to the cabin.

Potentially, it is easier to lift the handles from the standing position, but I doubt that there was a third person in the cabin that did it because Mayday call came from the captain. So the captain was in the cabin and able to speak when it happened.

Whether accidental or not, it is really between the captain and the FO. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 367982]

In an emergency the flight crew are supposed to aviate, navigate and then communicate and that can't all be done in 11 seconds after liftoff.
Human failure is more likely IMO than engine failure.

 

[Dotta]

"Investigators told lawmakers ​

black boxes undamaged in Air India crash,​

sources say.​

The Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau has also been able to extract
'good data' from the black boxes.

The preliminary report from investigation into the crash
is likely to be made public by Friday."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1943295414519656576

 

[Spectrix]

When the survivor of the plane jumped out and walked away, I wondered how that was possible when he was sitting next to a wing load of fuel that exploded almost immediately it crashed. Has his miracle escape been explained?

As far as I can understand (via a very rough translation from Hindi) the plane fuselage broke apart as it tore through the building, part of the plane broke free before the explosion. That part included the sole survivor's seat (or row of seats). He was still strapped in, and the impact as he fell to ground level was cushioned by the seat. He then unbuckled himself and escaped through a small gap in the wreckage.