Rashi'sDaughter
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OpenMind, I am guessing that she was jabbed with the train tracks while dressed in the Barbie nightgown, on her bare skin with the gown pulled up.
MOO.
MOO.
trains
- Thread starter wengr
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Interesting question...and of course, we have not seen where anyone in LE asked to have the nightie checked for the holes or marks from whatever caused the abrasions. The white shirt was on her when she was autopsied. The coroner removed it. A coroner is also supposed to note anything he finds on the clothing- such as blood, etc and the holes would have to have been noticed and noted If you have read it, you'll see where he noted the stains on the right sleeve, which corresponded to the streak of mucus/vomit on her right cheek.
If there are no corresponding holes or marks on the items of clothing that COULD have been worn when the marks were made, I think we'd have to assume she was naked, at least from the waist up.
I'm not certain that we can assume that track pins would damage a shirt or not. I can definately see how it could be done with the shirt on, and not tear the shirt. They are small in diameter, but rounded on the end and not really sharp. They are intended as childrens toys. On the other hand, often you will have one that feels to have a little bit of flash on the tip - meaning a very small bit of metal left over from when they were pinched off during manufacturing. If that's the case, and someone prodded you with it, I would expect bruising, and some slight abrasion to the skin.
To make marks like that I'd think there would have to be at least SOME kind of mark on the fabric that may have been in between her skin and the object making the mark even if there was no tear. Especially with a rounded tip, as you say, to make an abrasion like that, a lot of pressure was needed. Also, there didn't seem to be any bruising associated with the marks- none can be seen in the photos and none was noted in those areas by the coroner.
Hard to say. If the red sweater was on, and unless it was a very tight and fine weave, the pins would likely pass thru and leave maybe a little bit of a stretched out hole, or maybe nothing. If it was the white shirt, and if it was a Tshirt type material, then there would have to be dimples where the shirt was depressed. But you have to wonder if something like that would still be there after multiple handling of the body.
midwest mama
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Would you think those abrasions drew a bit of blood, which might be on the corresponding fabric, or could they just have brought blood to the surface, leaving the discoloration in the photo - kind of like the large, rust colored abrasion on JB's neck being chalked up to blood pooling under the skin?
They are different types of abrasions. The large, triangular rust-colored abrasion on her throat is a very common occurrence in strangulation victims. And it is caused by blood pooling under the skin. After death, it would have a papery look and feel to it. But the round marks on her back and cheek do not look as if they are caused by pooling blood. The coroner did not describe them as scabs or being scabbed over, so I don't think they actually bled- though some minimal bleeding could have happened. There was no mention of blood in corresponding areas of the white shirt. And we don't know if anyone checked the pink nightie for it either.
A true abrasion is a rubbing away of the very uppermost layer of the skin. It doesn't usually bleed. If it did, it might be better described as an open sore, cut, wound. To be honest- what they MOST look like to me? Cigarette burns. This is just from the photos, of course. ANY forensic examiner would have been ale to tell instantly whether these were cigarette burns and this was not stated, so I would have to say they were not cigarette burns. If you look very closely at the one on her cheek, it seems to have layers to it. These are, without a doubt, very puzzling injuries.
otg
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I have a question for someone familiar with model trains...
I didn't grow up with them (since my father wasn't interested in them, they were "way too expensive"), but I had friends who did. Seems like some of the engines had a smokestack that actually blew (what appeared to be at least) smoke from the stack. Was that (or maybe even the headlight) something that would get hot enough to cause a burn? Or was there anything else on them that would get that hot?
I didn't grow up with them (since my father wasn't interested in them, they were "way too expensive"), but I had friends who did. Seems like some of the engines had a smokestack that actually blew (what appeared to be at least) smoke from the stack. Was that (or maybe even the headlight) something that would get hot enough to cause a burn? Or was there anything else on them that would get that hot?
Smoking locomotives do have a heat source inside which heats the chemicals and cause it to smoke. Smoke then wafts from the smokestack emulating a steaming engine. The additive is typically a clear fluid, and before the advent of the fluid it was a little white pill. The smoke unit is however down in there, only accessible thru the smokestack, and I can't see how it's possible to touch it.
The onl other potential heat source that I can think of would be the small light bulb for the headlight, but that is typically recessed also and then protected by a plastic lens. I think I see what you are thinking, and it's a good idea, but IME, there is little probability.
I agree. I remember those smokestack trains! I had an uncle that had a huge setup he put up every Christmas. I remember the little white pill that made the smoke- I even remember the way it smelled. I didn't think it got hot enough to burn skin, though, and the smokestack, even in the smaller size sets, is too big to have made that mark.
DeeDee249,
I think we discussed this before, in the context of the head injury? I thought the injuries, including the abrasions, were part of a enraged assault on JonBenet possibly culminating in the head blow.
Its also possible some of the abrasions reflect JonBenet being dragged by her hands or feet along the floor, suggesting her abuser moved the body?
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Those round marks could never have been made by dragging her along the floor. The one on her cheek wouldn't even have made contact with the floor, and the ones on her back could not have come from being dragged or slid along a floor. However, the autopsy DID note some scratches on the back of her legs, and these MAY have come from being dragged. But these could also have occurred during outdoor play earlier that day or even in the few days before. The coroner did not specify whether those leg marks were fresh that day.
As far as her being moved- yes, we have discussed her being moved, and as I have explained, the livor patterns combined with the stage of rigor mortis as it progressed make it obvious that the ONLY was she could have been moved was from further back in the wine cellar to a place closer to the door. This also explains why FW didn't see her when he looked into the darkened room, yet JR was able to see her IMMEDIATELY as soon as he opened the door before he turned on the light. Any scrapes on the back of her legs could have happened during that, although IMO if she was dragged along the floor by being placed on the white blanket and pulled. It's the only way it could have been done without forming a second livor pattern or breaking rigor.
DeeDee249,
The abrasions seem to suggest movement of some kind, even if its only relative, i.e. the assailant does the moving.
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OpenMind4U
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...me too, wengr.
I assume you mean the abrasions on the back of her legs. Unfortunately, we have NOT been able to see those. We have only seen the ones on her back and cheek. The round abrasions would never have come from being dragged, IMO. But without looking at a photo of the back of her legs, I couldn't say for sure. They are in a place where it is possible they COULD have happened if she was dragged. But the coroner (as far as we know) did not offer an opinion as to how she may have gotten them (unlike when he voiced an opinion on the vaginal injuries).
We also don't know for sure IF she was pulled along the floor and we don't know whether she was pulled by a body part (like her feet or hands or even her hair) or whether it was the blanket that was pulled with her on it. So many things needed to be looked at- were there blood spots on the blanket that may have corresponded to the scrapes on the back of her legs? THIS is why it is so important to preserve a crime scene. And THIS is why it is so damaging to the case that it wasn't.
Again- kids get scrapes all the time, especially with outside play. She was said to have ridden her new bike outdoors that day. The back of the legs is the likely place that would get scraped from slipping off the pedals, hopping on and off the bike, etc. I'd really have to see them.
DeeDee249,
Bicycle abrasion vs assailant abrasions, I think I might go for the latter and wait for the negative.
It seems the geometry of the abrasions precludes particular assailant scenarios?
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Again- without seeing them (on the back of her legs) I can't say with any kind of certainty that they would be from dragging or moving while alive in any way. But the ones on her cheek and back I can say with certainty did not come from dragging. Those seem to have been made by something that pressed into her skin, almost at right-angle. Something held perpendicular to her skin. Or something she pressed against before her death. Their shape doesn't reconcile with movement as they were made.
DeeDee249,
It might be she was being restrained by some object or method? I assume she was completely naked otherwise any clothing would be similarly torn or soiled etc?
Her pink pajama top appears free from any distress. Although we have not seen a picture of her pink barbie nightgown, that might exhibit signs of struggle?
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