Trayvon Martin's Autopsy

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LambChop said:
I think what is even more interesting is right below that the ME descibing what happened that the victim was shot and then "fell to the ground" and not fell over onto the ground. Did the ME think TM was standing??? jmo
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I don't think the ME has any way of knowing that based off the autopsy. IMO
 
The autopsy report says of the projectile path: Skin, left anterior 5th intercostal space, pericardial sac, right ventricle of heart, and right lower lobe of lung.

I am not a medical person, so I need some help to clarify this. Looking at Ranch's photo above and others on google images, it seems to me that for the bullet to have passed through the left intercostal space and into the right ventricle of the heart, it would have to enter at a somewhat left to right angle, wouldn't it? Or does the right ventricle extend into the left intercostal space?

Does "right lower lobe of lung" mean the lower lobe of the right lung or the right-hand portion of the lower lobe of the left lung? If it is the right lung, there's no way that a left-of-midline entry could equal a straight on, 90-degree-to-the-body shot, is there? It would have to be angled left to right to some degree, I would think.

It's hard to try to make sense of something in which you have no expertise (and, clearly, I don't). Maybe joypath or KZ can help us out.
 
Concerned Papa said:
BBM

As you can tell below, I made the correction referred to as incorrect. <modsnip>
TMBodyMEReport2.png


This should clear up the location of the main lead core of the bullet being in the pericardial sac BEHIND the heart's right ventricle.

TMBodyMEReport1.png


I'll leave it up to you to draw those "multiple little lines in many different directions" for your version of a realistic view of the projectile's fragmentation. Try as I may, I can only find THREE mentioned in the ME's report and I've already accounted for one of those with the main lead core's, now accurate, placement.

TMMEReport-4.jpg
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BBM
The pericardial sac surrounds the heart. It's not "behind" the heart.
Pericardial sac: A conical sac of fibrous tissue which surrounds the heart and the roots of the great blood vessels.
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http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9128
 
TMMEReport-4.jpg


I think this gives a good indication that the right lung is the one referenced in the projectile path section of the autopsy since this bit also references the right pleural cavity.

So if the bullet went in at some degree of left-to-right trajectory, I suppose less distance between the parties would be required to fit the gun in than if it were a straight-on, perfectly perpendicular shot? Probably not more than a couple of inches, but would that make a difference in some of the diagrams and calculations here?
 
Sherbie said:
TMMEReport-4.jpg


I think this gives a good indication that the right lung is the one referenced in the projectile path section of the autopsy since this bit also references the right pleural cavity.

So if the bullet went in at some degree of left-to-right trajectory, I suppose less distance between the parties would be required to fit the gun in than if it were a straight-on, perfectly perpendicular shot? Probably not more than a couple of inches, but would that make a difference in some of the diagrams and calculations here?
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Thanks. That makes sense. I forgot that the bullet fragmented with the core staying inside of the pericardial sac and fragments going elsewhere.
 
Concerned Papa said:
City, I did that image only to illustrate what the ME's report says. I'm not a forensics expert but have seen intermediate ranges defined from 3" to 30" and practically all points in between. Pick your distance and I'm pretty sure there's a distance than can be linked to support it. The various categories of shot distance I have seen include contact, near contact, intermediate, and distant categories, no matter the meted definition for intermediate.

Although I have little knowledge about the various categorzation of shot distances, I have more than a little experience in understanding angles and angular impact on a given plane.

A human arm holding a gun only has three, limited, pivot or rotator points from the shoulder to the gun. With a prone shooter underneath the victim, I can see no way the projectile path determined by the ME could occur with ANY contortion of these three points considering the additional qualifier of an "intermediate" range by any standard's meted dimension, whether the angular plane of the victim was vertical all the way down to, and including, nose to nose.
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Dr. Wecht I believe on piers morgan stated he felt it was 6 - 12 inches based on what he reviewed.
 
Velouria said:
You know, I have to agree with you about not repeating the brother's statements. As you pointed out, he clearly had no contact with GZ and reportedly had not seen him for some time. Therefore, I believe all his public statements should be disregarded as opinion only, and a rather biased one at that.

IMO
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I agree.

If I never hear "diapers" or "spoon fed" in regards to this case again, it will be too soon.

LOL
 
When they do an autopsy on a gunshot victim don't they stick a small rod in the hole to help find the trajectory?
 
Sherbie said:
Your post made me curious about something. I'm not familiar with ME parlance, so I wonder what exactly (and technically) "directly front to back" means.

I don't know whether that refers to the bullet traveling straight from front to back in precise perpendicular fashion (in relation to the midline of the body), or whether it might mean that it simply wasn't impeded or deflected by body structures in its path, regardless the actual trajectory angle.

Anybody got an ME source we could ask?
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I was wondering if it could mean it didnt hit any bone or suchlike to throw it off ... but I guess it had to hit bone to go through his heart, eh?
 
cityslick said:
That's some fall to get injuries on both the front and back of the head. Even more impressive is how one wouldn't be groggy or anything by that fall, still had to ability to chase a kid down and threaten them. All in a matter of basically a minute or so.
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THEORY
Here, TM and GZ come face to face, between the two houses, there are words, TM starts to go, GZ grabs him and TM reacts with an elbow, knee, whatever to shove GZ off. That blow hits his face, GZ falls backward into into the boxwood or azaleas...I can't tell what kind they are. Now he has a dug out knick in his scalp and a slight cut below that...both resulting from falling either backwards or slightly sideways into the bushes. Trayvon's phone goes to the ground and shuts off. Trayvon starts to get away, the bag falls on the sidewalk, GZ gets up chases down Trayvon, the flashlight goes to the ground, the keys follow, GZ catches up and the two tumble to the ground and rolll about, in a struggle, on the ground. As Trayvon is in the process of getting up and to get away the neighbor steps out says, "stop it, I'm calling 911..." he goes in and as he is going for his phone GZ shoots TM who has managed to begin to get free of GZ and upright.
 
Just K said:
Here, TM and GZ come face to face, between the two houses, there are words, TM starts to go, GZ grabs him and TM reacts with an elbow, knee, whatever to shove GZ off. That blow hits his face, GZ falls backward into into the boxwood or azaleas...I can't tell what kind they are. Now he has a dug out knick in his scalp and a slight cut below that...both resulting from falling either backwards or slightly sideways into the bushes. Trayvon's phone goes to the ground and shuts off. Trayvon starts to get away, the bag falls on the sidewalk, GZ gets up chases down Trayvon, the flashlight goes to the ground, the keys follow, GZ catches up and the two tumble to the ground and rolll about, in a struggle, on the ground. As Trayvon is in the process of getting up and to get away the neighbor steps out says, "stop it, I'm calling 911..." he goes in and as he is going for his phone GZ shoots TM who has managed to begin to get free of GZ and upright.
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Is there any evidence in the autopsy report to support your theory? I can see some things that may be supported by other parts of evidence and some things that are pure speculation.
 
2goldfish said:
I was wondering if it could mean it didnt hit any bone or suchlike to throw it off ... but I guess it had to hit bone to go through his heart, eh?
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ME stated it did not hit any bones. We have to keep in mind that although the wound was to the left chest it was just to the right of the left nipple. Thus the right ventricle and parts of the right lung were impacted.
 
RANCH said:
Is there any evidence in the autopsy report to support your theory? I can see some things that may be supported by other parts of evidence and some things that are pure speculation.
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Just another possibility for how the bullet went front to back. I base this on witness reports of seeing the two running, where evidence was found in the grass, the type of abrasions that GZ had...People thought it was dogs fighting or rustling in the bushes...that tells me that at some point the bushes were involved.

I want to know if there was GZ DNA on TM's elbow or knee of his clothing. That would show he was shoving or pushing GZ off or out of his way to getting home.
 
Just K said:
Just another possibility for how the bullet went front to back. I base this on witness reports of seeing the two running, where evidence was found in the grass, the type of abrasions that GZ had...People thought it was dogs fighting or rustling in the bushes...that tells me that at some point the bushes were involved.

I want to know if there was GZ DNA on TM's elbow or knee of his clothing. That would show he was shoving or pushing GZ off or out of his way to getting home.
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Thanks for your reply. All I can say about the bullet going from the front towards the back is that Trayvon was facing GZ when he was shot and not fleeing. So of course it will be traveling "front to back".

Are there any witness's saying that they saw anyone in the bushes?

If GZ's DNA was discovered on Trayvons elbow or knee, could it also be from him attacking GZ rather than trying to escape? JMO.
 
Just K said:
Just another possibility for how the bullet went front to back. I base this on witness reports of seeing the two running, where evidence was found in the grass, the type of abrasions that GZ had...People thought it was dogs fighting or rustling in the bushes...that tells me that at some point the bushes were involved.

I want to know if there was GZ DNA on TM's elbow or knee of his clothing. That would show he was shoving or pushing GZ off or out of his way to getting home.
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I believe GZ's DNA was on one of TM's sleeve cuffs but that was all. Not clear from the report if it was right or left. jmo
 
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