Trial Discussion Thread #1 - 14.03.03-06, Day 1-4

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Here's what I think: If the door was the way it was as Oscar says it was (intact door), and the intruder was making no noise at all, how did he get 3 shots to go into this intruder? Meaning, I would have expected more shots to have missed. I mean, yes, it is a small area, but still - just imagine basically you are shooting with a blinfold on. Just shooting in the general direction. Because the person is being the closed door - you cannot (supposedly) see the person.

I just have a very hard time believing that, under those circumstances, Oscar got 3 shots into the body. 3 out of 4 total.

He either heard Reeva's voice (and thus got a very good idea of EXACTLY which direction to point and shoot in), or there was an opening in which he could see her, or both.

Yes I agree. I just don't see how shooting a door 4 times and he was able to hit her 3/4 times. I wish we knew her position in there. That is something they will cover in trial though I'm assuming. I've heard talk of an expert who will discuss blood splatter and such.

I'm guessing the defense want the first shot the one to the head, so it fits the wasn't able to scream or alert him that it was her story.
 
Here's what I think: If the door was the way it was as Oscar says it was (intact door), and the intruder was making no noise at all, how did he get 3 shots to go into this intruder? Meaning, I would have expected more shots to have missed. I mean, yes, it is a small area, but still - just imagine basically you are shooting with a blinfold on. Just shooting in the general direction. Because the person is being the closed door - you cannot (supposedly) see the person.

I just have a very hard time believing that, under those circumstances, Oscar got 3 shots into the body. 3 out of 4 total.

He either heard Reeva's voice (and thus got a very good idea of EXACTLY which direction to point and shoot in), or there was an opening in which he could see her, or both.

I don't have any reason to give credence to the claim that Oscar called out to the intruder, get out. or called out to Reeva to call the police..

Because I don't think there was any noise at the bathroom window.. certainly there was no intruder.. there is no logical reason why I should take on board the sequence of events, if I don't believe the catalyst for them. And I don't believe Oscar thought this either..

Since I discount a thief climbing up the ladder and into the bathroom, I have no foundation to believe the screams of Oscar to this non existing thief.

Therefore.. no callings of warning to the thief, no instructions to reeve in regard to police.. nothing like that at all. Why should I believe Oscars story? considering the endgame here.


she went to the bathroom, then into the toilet room, locked the door, he got his gun, went to the bathroom, he shot thru the door.. witnesses heard a man and a woman screaming .



when you strip away all the extraneous embellishing.. that's what happened.
 
The thing that really, just really gets me that something is "wrong" with his story is like someone else said earlier - it's like Reeva is just on "mute." It's like Reeva did not even exist.

Well, Reeva DID exist before he shot her. And his story begins BEFORE he shot her.

He fits Reeva in whenever it's convenient, and leaves her out whenever it's convenient.

JMO.

abbreviated by me with respect..


P
R
E
C
I
S
E
L
Y.
 
Here are some of the main issues at hand that are nagging at me, and why I'm having such a hard time believing OP's account of the events. It's not one thing I'm stuck on, it's several:

1. His explanation of why he was scared. Simply hearing a noise in the bathroom that you share with your lover, who you know is sharing the same room with you that night, is not cause to go in to full blown terror mode. I would have to abandon my logic to believe this. The only way this makes sense is if he was drunk out of his mind or high as a kite to have that level of paranoia. Sure, people get scared at night when they hear noises, I understand that, but full blown terror is something quite different.

2. The details are too intricate and odd: fans on the porch in the middle of the night, a room so pitch black you can't see one single thing, a locked toilet door in the middle of the night, men screaming exactly like women, cricket bats sounding like guns, etc. There are A LOT of details about his story that have to be justified to make sense.

3. OP retrieved his gun from Reeva's side of the bed. If it really was pitch black, he still was right there, right where she was supposed to be. Inches away. The supposed intruders were in the next room. Why in the world would he not get a hold of Reeva and make sure she is ok first. He's yelling to her to call police and she has nothing at all to say about that, and that doesn't strike him as odd? He can't just reach his arm up to shake her or grab her? He is asking us to believe the unbelievable. Just because something is possible does not also make it plausible. Could I win the lottery tomorrow? Sure, it's possible. But not very probable.

4. Why is it so urgent for him to blast through the bathroom door, without first investigating what or who is in the bathroom?. Again, I simply cannot buy that he was yelling out to whomever was in the toilet and they did not respond back to him at all. Of course Reeva would have responded to his voice. I've read some people theorizing that Reeva was hiding in the toilet when she heard OP yell to the intruder to get out. But let's think about that. Within seconds of hearing the noise in the bathroom, OP has a gun in his hand and he's running down the hall on stumps. From what I understand, he is fast on stumps too. If Reeva was just simply getting up to use the bathroom at night and she hears OP shout out, is she going to get her bearings together within a second or two and think OMG, I have to lock myself in here and hide? That is far more of a stretch for me to believe. He goes in there like he's Rambo because he has a suspicion? Is blowing through a bathroom door a reasonable solution when the person in the bathroom doesn't respond back to you? No, this is not a reasonable explanation. We are trying to make reason fit to an illogical situation.

5. Why 4 shots? Please don't try to tell me the 4 shots were an accident too. Nobody fires a gun 4 times unless they intend to either kill or very seriously mame the crap out of somebody. It's not like OP had never seen a gun before in his life. He is aware of what 4 bullets can do. He went at that door with intent to kill. Can we 100% say it was intent to kill Reeva at this point? That would be unfair as there is still a lot of evidence to hear at trial. But the 4 shots tell me that he was hot under the collar about something. I don't believe for a second that he shot 4 off without giving it any thought.

6. Multiple reports of a woman screaming. One or two people may mistake a voice, but 4 people now have very specifically stated that it was a woman screaming. They also heard a different voice, a man's voice. I can't discount 4 people. I will agree that we still need to piece these stories together and nail down a more solid timeline. But the mere fact of a woman screaming out in distress goes against the very fabric of OP's story.

Now, I do understand that people get mistakenly shot in homes. It does happen. But this is not your typical mistaken identity case. Usually somebody is surprised by somebody else when they are expecting to be home alone. Or somebody is sneaking out or in the house late at night downstairs and the father or whomever thinks it's somebody breaking in. I do see where this happens. Usually it requires somebody seeing another person or shadowy figure first before any action takes place.

In OP's situation, he knows that Reeva is upstairs with him. The bathroom is part of their bedroom. Somebody using a bathroom in the middle of the night (even if they were just previously in bed) is nothing unusual. I cannot logically understand ANY situation where simply using a bathroom at night would be terror-inducing. It defies logic. Also, OP never actually SAW anything. He didn't see a person, a person didn't talk, he didn't see a weapon... he had absolutely no clue whatsoever who or what was making a noise in the bathroom. Do you know anybody, and please be honest, anybody who would blindly shoot 4 times at a closed door when they don't have a snowballs clue in hell what they are shooting at?

With all of this said, it pains me to be thinking that OP is guilty. I don't want him to be guilty. Like many others, I once admired him very much. I still hope that something drastic happens at trial and I have an "ah ha" moment that clears it all up for me. It hasn't happened yet. Unfortunately with each witness that takes the stand, I see a much darker picture.
 
beats me, katy!


If one follows Roux's logic, why didn't Oscar himself, in a girls loud voice tell HIMSELF, don't shoot, then in a deep mans voice say, GETOUT< GET OUT. then in a high girls voice say, It's me, Oscar!!. stop shooting!!...


* snort*

:floorlaugh:
 
That is not his point. His point is that even after considering his first draft and carefully revising it twice, he still states that his wife heard 4 or 5 shots. That is different from her later testimony that she was sure it was 4 shots because she has a history of music and rhythm and it was definitely 4 shots

Yes, Dr. Michelle Burger- she is great-
"Maybe Mr. Pistorious can answer why there were two people screaming..."

"That would be a good question for Mr. Pistorious, as he would be the only one who would know the answer to THAT question."

So bright... she even caused the room to burst with laughter- a few times, with her quick wit.

Interesting how she preferred Afrikaans,,, but this is not why I write. This is why:


HYPOTHETICAL​

A man admits that he is so dim that he does not care where people are located when he brings out his gun - that is not important - what is important is that THERE IS A BURGLER IN THE HOUSE - AND (tense, perspective jump) when I have my gun - I do not care where people are - if they are safe - all of this does not matter to me - what matters is that I have bullets for my gun... and when I pull the trigger the bullets fly. When a burglar goes into my bathroom to steal toilet paper- how did he know I keep the good toilet paper in my bathroom? How does he know my favorite toothbrush- with my name on it - is in there? Was he given a map--- to know where these valuable materials were? There is also a very expensive bar of soap in there, too.

Well, I have this robber now... he got messy - and he decided - WHILE INVADING A HOME - TO USE THE TOILET WITH THE LIGHTS ON! Ya, see, I caught him...and I will protect not only my expensive tp, and soap, and my fave toothbrush, but I will also protect my love...

End of Hypothetical


Do you agree with me that the aforementioned statement sort of answers the question of whether or not OP is guilty?

If not, he expects us to believe it. Please send feedback... thanks .
Your admirer,


The Gajonka
 
Here are some of the main issues at hand that are nagging at me, and why I'm having such a hard time believing OP's account of the events. It's not one thing I'm stuck on, it's several:


With all of this said, it pains me to be thinking that OP is guilty. I don't want him to be guilty. Like many others, I once admired him very much. I still hope that something drastic happens at trial and I have an "ah ha" moment that clears it all up for me. It hasn't happened yet. Unfortunately with each witness that takes the stand, I see a much darker picture.

Again, Abbreviated by me with respect..

and again, at the risk of being repetitive..

P R E C I S E L Y.
 
The State has over 100 witnesses on its list. What if 3 more neighbors testify they heard a woman screaming? 6 more? 10 more?

We don't know how many people actually heard this event. The wife of the doctor who is on the stand now will be another one.
 
Here are some of the main issues at hand that are nagging at me, and why I'm having such a hard time believing OP's account of the events. It's not one thing I'm stuck on, it's several:

1. His explanation of why he was scared. Simply hearing a noise in the bathroom that you share with your lover, who you know is sharing the same room with you that night, is not cause to go in to full blown terror mode. I would have to abandon my logic to believe this. The only way this makes sense is if he was drunk out of his mind or high as a kite to have that level of paranoia. Sure, people get scared at night when they hear noises, I understand that, but full blown terror is something quite different.

2. The details are too intricate and odd: fans on the porch in the middle of the night, a room so pitch black you can't see one single thing, a locked toilet door in the middle of the night, men screaming exactly like women, cricket bats sounding like guns, etc. There are A LOT of details about his story that have to be justified to make sense.

3. OP retrieved his gun from Reeva's side of the bed. If it really was pitch black, he still was right there, right where she was supposed to be. Inches away. The supposed intruders were in the next room. Why in the world would he not get a hold of Reeva and make sure she is ok first. He's yelling to her to call police and she has nothing at all to say about that, and that doesn't strike him as odd? He can't just reach his arm up to shake her or grab her? He is asking us to believe the unbelievable. Just because something is possible does not also make it plausible. Could I win the lottery tomorrow? Sure, it's possible. But not very probable.

4. Why is it so urgent for him to blast through the bathroom door, without first investigating what or who is in the bathroom?. Again, I simply cannot buy that he was yelling out to whomever was in the toilet and they did not respond back to him at all. Of course Reeva would have responded to his voice. I've read some people theorizing that Reeva was hiding in the toilet when she heard OP yell to the intruder to get out. But let's think about that. Within seconds of hearing the noise in the bathroom, OP has a gun in his hand and he's running down the hall on stumps. From what I understand, he is fast on stumps too. If Reeva was just simply getting up to use the bathroom at night and she hears OP shout out, is she going to get her bearings together within a second or two and think OMG, I have to lock myself in here and hide? That is far more of a stretch for me to believe. He goes in there like he's Rambo because he has a suspicion? Is blowing through a bathroom door a reasonable solution when the person in the bathroom doesn't respond back to you? No, this is not a reasonable explanation. We are trying to make reason fit to an illogical situation.

5. Why 4 shots? Please don't try to tell me the 4 shots were an accident too. Nobody fires a gun 4 times unless they intend to either kill or very seriously mame the crap out of somebody. It's not like OP had never seen a gun before in his life. He is aware of what 4 bullets can do. He went at that door with intent to kill. Can we 100% say it was intent to kill Reeva at this point? That would be unfair as there is still a lot of evidence to hear at trial. But the 4 shots tell me that he was hot under the collar about something. I don't believe for a second that he shot 4 off without giving it any thought.

6. Multiple reports of a woman screaming. One or two people may mistake a voice, but 4 people now have very specifically stated that it was a woman screaming. They also heard a different voice, a man's voice. I can't discount 4 people. I will agree that we still need to piece these stories together and nail down a more solid timeline. But the mere fact of a woman screaming out in distress goes against the very fabric of OP's story.

Now, I do understand that people get mistakenly shot in homes. It does happen. But this is not your typical mistaken identity case. Usually somebody is surprised by somebody else when they are expecting to be home alone. Or somebody is sneaking out or in the house late at night downstairs and the father or whomever thinks it's somebody breaking in. I do see where this happens. Usually it requires somebody seeing another person or shadowy figure first before any action takes place.

In OP's situation, he knows that Reeva is upstairs with him. The bathroom is part of their bedroom. Somebody using a bathroom in the middle of the night (even if they were just previously in bed) is nothing unusual. I cannot logically understand ANY situation where simply using a bathroom at night would be terror-inducing. It defies logic. Also, OP never actually SAW anything. He didn't see a person, a person didn't talk, he didn't see a weapon... he had absolutely no clue whatsoever who or what was making a noise in the bathroom. Do you know anybody, and please be honest, anybody who would blindly shoot 4 times at a closed door when they don't have a snowballs clue in hell what they are shooting at?

With all of this said, it pains me to be thinking that OP is guilty. I don't want him to be guilty. Like many others, I once admired him very much. I still hope that something drastic happens at trial and I have an "ah ha" moment that clears it all up for me. It hasn't happened yet. Unfortunately with each witness that takes the stand, I see a much darker picture.

:goodpost:
 
Here are some of the main issues at hand that are nagging at me, and why I'm having such a hard time believing OP's account of the events. It's not one thing I'm stuck on, it's several:

1. His explanation of why he was scared. Simply hearing a noise in the bathroom that you share with your lover, who you know is sharing the same room with you that night, is not cause to go in to full blown terror mode. I would have to abandon my logic to believe this. The only way this makes sense is if he was drunk out of his mind or high as a kite to have that level of paranoia. Sure, people get scared at night when they hear noises, I understand that, but full blown terror is something quite different.

2. The details are too intricate and odd: fans on the porch in the middle of the night, a room so pitch black you can't see one single thing, a locked toilet door in the middle of the night, men screaming exactly like women, cricket bats sounding like guns, etc. There are A LOT of details about his story that have to be justified to make sense.

3. OP retrieved his gun from Reeva's side of the bed. If it really was pitch black, he still was right there, right where she was supposed to be. Inches away. The supposed intruders were in the next room. Why in the world would he not get a hold of Reeva and make sure she is ok first. He's yelling to her to call police and she has nothing at all to say about that, and that doesn't strike him as odd? He can't just reach his arm up to shake her or grab her? He is asking us to believe the unbelievable. Just because something is possible does not also make it plausible. Could I win the lottery tomorrow? Sure, it's possible. But not very probable.

4. Why is it so urgent for him to blast through the bathroom door, without first investigating what or who is in the bathroom?. Again, I simply cannot buy that he was yelling out to whomever was in the toilet and they did not respond back to him at all. Of course Reeva would have responded to his voice. I've read some people theorizing that Reeva was hiding in the toilet when she heard OP yell to the intruder to get out. But let's think about that. Within seconds of hearing the noise in the bathroom, OP has a gun in his hand and he's running down the hall on stumps. From what I understand, he is fast on stumps too. If Reeva was just simply getting up to use the bathroom at night and she hears OP shout out, is she going to get her bearings together within a second or two and think OMG, I have to lock myself in here and hide? That is far more of a stretch for me to believe. He goes in there like he's Rambo because he has a suspicion? Is blowing through a bathroom door a reasonable solution when the person in the bathroom doesn't respond back to you? No, this is not a reasonable explanation. We are trying to make reason fit to an illogical situation.

5. Why 4 shots? Please don't try to tell me the 4 shots were an accident too. Nobody fires a gun 4 times unless they intend to either kill or very seriously mame the crap out of somebody. It's not like OP had never seen a gun before in his life. He is aware of what 4 bullets can do. He went at that door with intent to kill. Can we 100% say it was intent to kill Reeva at this point? That would be unfair as there is still a lot of evidence to hear at trial. But the 4 shots tell me that he was hot under the collar about something. I don't believe for a second that he shot 4 off without giving it any thought.

6. Multiple reports of a woman screaming. One or two people may mistake a voice, but 4 people now have very specifically stated that it was a woman screaming. They also heard a different voice, a man's voice. I can't discount 4 people. I will agree that we still need to piece these stories together and nail down a more solid timeline. But the mere fact of a woman screaming out in distress goes against the very fabric of OP's story.

Now, I do understand that people get mistakenly shot in homes. It does happen. But this is not your typical mistaken identity case. Usually somebody is surprised by somebody else when they are expecting to be home alone. Or somebody is sneaking out or in the house late at night downstairs and the father or whomever thinks it's somebody breaking in. I do see where this happens. Usually it requires somebody seeing another person or shadowy figure first before any action takes place.

In OP's situation, he knows that Reeva is upstairs with him. The bathroom is part of their bedroom. Somebody using a bathroom in the middle of the night (even if they were just previously in bed) is nothing unusual. I cannot logically understand ANY situation where simply using a bathroom at night would be terror-inducing. It defies logic. Also, OP never actually SAW anything. He didn't see a person, a person didn't talk, he didn't see a weapon... he had absolutely no clue whatsoever who or what was making a noise in the bathroom. Do you know anybody, and please be honest, anybody who would blindly shoot 4 times at a closed door when they don't have a snowballs clue in hell what they are shooting at?

With all of this said, it pains me to be thinking that OP is guilty. I don't want him to be guilty. Like many others, I once admired him very much. I still hope that something drastic happens at trial and I have an "ah ha" moment that clears it all up for me. It hasn't happened yet. Unfortunately with each witness that takes the stand, I see a much darker picture.

Thanks isn't enough this is an excellent post and so perfectly said!
 
On Oscar Pistorius, Stumps, Partiality and Science

Well I do find much to admire about OP. This includes his remarkable triumph over his disability, and unfair attempts to permaban him from runnuig against able-bodied runners. His public self-effacing, humorous personna was wonderful.

His story is one of great triumph over much adversity. Even how some 6 years ago, the Paralympic Committee ruled that he has an unfair advantage over &#8220;normal&#8221; runners based on a German professor of biomechanics videotaping and analysis. He was permabanned from running against normal runners. Oscar then got American biophysicists to prove that while the spring energy in his carbon blades gives him a slight advantage on the straightaway, he has significant disadvantage at the start and on the turns. So over all, he still has a disadvantage vs able runners. And his permaban was lifted when he contested it with the Court of Arbitration in Sport.

It&#8217;s tragic that Oscar may never get the chance&#8212;with improved blades or further training or IMO finding out about his hidden medical issues, he might have become &#8220;the world&#8217;s fastest human&#8221;&#8212; despite his disability.

But far more tragic is the taking of a life. A young lovely life, but any life is precious.

I report things here because all or most here have not read his autobio or have the background I have, and so I share. The problem is the more one knows about science or OP&#8217;s autobio, the more problematic is his BH affidavit, and the current absurdities from his DT. This is not &#8220;impartiality&#8221;, rather it is having certain knowledge&#8212;including his own revelations in his book.

But for the record, he is highly mobile on his stumps, and he "beat the competition" up till the age of 12 while running only on his stumps

Just one more improbability I share with you now. His BH affidavit includes this: &#8220;&#8230;I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights&#8230;&#8221;

But in his book, Blade Runner, he details how his regular prosthetics (not his carbon fiber J-blades he runs on) are made of fiberglass and break easily.

My point is the more you know&#8230;

Conclusion I share: it is to me highly improbable that he would try to kick the door open because he knew his prosthetics would likely immediately break. .

But as with all else, still possible.
 
Well, I'm gonna piggy-back off lisasalinger's post to say that I don't think any of us want Oscar to be guilty. First of all, we wish he had never done this, Reeva would still be alive. Secondly, he would go to prison for a long time. Third, it would ruin his very promising career and reputation. Fourth, it would pretty much erase all the hard work and effort he put in for so many years. Not to mention, effect on the families, and many other things, but you get my point.

And if he really did this, I cannot help but some part of me feel sorry for him. I don't usually feel this way for defendants whom I believe are guilty. But I do feel like this rage or whatever problem he has, his condition must have played some part in it. It could not have been easy. I'm just trying to imagine what his childhood must have been like. The hardships of just doing normal things, the teasing in school, etc..

Now, of course, I could be all wrong, and it could just be something in his personality which he would have had anyway, even if he was able-bodied his whole life and never had this condition. And that he would have done something horrible in that case, too.

And, he seems to have a very good life now and in the upper-class of society, which gives him many benefits over other people, such as the poor of South Africa. So I realize it's no excuse. Obviously, there is no excuse for what he did, ever.

I guess I am just trying to say that, of course, I just wish he had never done this. Reeva would still be alive. He would still have his promising career and reputation. Reeva's mother would still have her daughter, and on and on.

It brings about a lot of emotion thinking about this whole tragedy.

JMO.
 
He hasn't claimed he "screamed" before the shots. That was the testimony of MB & CB, which is compelling testimony but also testimony that has some credibility issues.
He hasn't claimed he "screamed" ever. He did claim, however, that he yelled before the shots. Was screaming involved in the yelling? I'm sure Mr. Roux will let us know his opinion.
 
On Oscar Pistorius, Stumps, Partiality and Science

Well I do find much to admire about OP. This includes his remarkable triumph over his disability, and unfair attempts to permaban him from runnung against able-bodied runners. His public self-effacing, humorous personna was wonderful.

His story is one of great triumph over much adversity. Even how some 6 years ago, the Paralympic Committee ruled that he has an unfair advantage over “normal” runners based on a German professor of biomechanics videotaping and analysis. He was permabaned from running against normal runners. Oscar then got American biophysicists to prove that while the spring energy in his carbon blades gives him a slight advantage on the straightaway, he has significant disadvantage at the start and on the turns. So over all, he still has a disadvantage vs able runners. And his permaban was lifted when he contested it with the Court of Arbitration in Sport.

It’s tragic that Oscar may never get the chance—with improved blades or further training or IMO finding out about his hidden medical issues, he might have become “the world’s fastest human”— despite his disability.

But far more tragic is the taking of a life. A young lovely life, but any life is precious.

I report things here because all or most here have not read his autobio or have the background I have, and so I share. The problem is the more one knows about science or OP’s autobio, the more problematic is his BH affidavit, and the current absurdities from his DT. This is not “impartiality”, rather it is having certain knowedge—including his own revelations in his book.

But for the record, he is highly mobile on his stumps, and he "beat the competition" up till the age of 12 while running only on his stumps

Just one more improbability I share with you now. His BH affidavit includes this: “…I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights…”

But in his book, Blade Runner, he details how his regular prosthetics (not his carbon fiber J-blades he runs on) are made of fiberglass and break easily.

My point is the more you know…

Conclusion I share: it is to me highly improbable that he would try to kick the door open because he knew his prosthetics would likely immediately break. .

But as with all else, still possible.

Very interesting point about the fiberglass legs, Shane! Thanks for sharing.

I can't wait for experts who have examined the door to take the stand. In addition to the gunshot holes and the cricket bat damage, I would image that if he had tried to kick the door, there should be dents from that too, right? We will see what they say.
 
Very interesting point about the fiberglass legs, Shane! Thanks for sharing.

I can't wait for experts who have examined the door to take the stand. In addition to the gunshot holes and the cricket bat damage, I would image that if he had tried to kick the door, there should be dents from that too, right? We will see what they say.

Thank you kindly, Lisa.

There would be dents, probably.

But his prosthetcs likely would have shattered, and there is no indication from when police arrived and later led him away and such that this occurred, as his height clearly indicates he was on prosthetics.

Of course, he might have had extra pairs of these. They would not cost anywhere's near what his J-blades do--$15,000. each, as of 1-2 years ago.
 
Well, I'm gonna piggy-back off lisasalinger's post to say that I don't think any of us want Oscar to be guilty. First of all, we wish he had never done this, Reeva would still be alive. Secondly, he would go to prison for a long time. Third, it would ruin his very promising career and reputation. Fourth, it would pretty much erase all the hard work and effort he put in for so many years. Not to mention, effect on the families, and many other things, but you get my point.

And if he really did this, I cannot help but some part of me feel sorry for him. I don't usually feel this way for defendants whom I believe are guilty. But I do feel like this rage or whatever problem he has, his condition must have played some part in it. It could not have been easy. I'm just trying to imagine what his childhood must have been like. The hardships of just doing normal things, the teasing in school, etc..

Now, of course, I could be all wrong, and it could just be something in his personality which he would have had anyway, even if he was able-bodied his whole life and never had this condition. And that he would have done something horrible in that case, too.

And, he seems to have a very good life now and in the upper-class of society, which gives him many benefits over other people, such as the poor of South Africa. So I realize it's no excuse. Obviously, there is no excuse for what he did, ever.

I guess I am just trying to say that, of course, I just wish he had never done this. Reeva would still be alive. He would still have his promising career and reputation. Reeva's mother would still have her daughter, and on and on.

It brings about a lot of emotion thinking about this whole tragedy.

JMO.

It's not surprising to me to hear Dr. S say that OP seemed very sincerely upset that night at his house. He probably was. Even if it turns out that he did intentionally shoot her.

It's very possible that he immediately regretted this. Or maybe not. We'll never know. But most people aren't all good or all bad. Unless he is a straight up sociopath/psychopath and nobody knew it, I'm sure he does have very deep sadness about all of this.
 
Apparently this is not in dispute. There are apparently gunshots in the panel that was knocked out of the door, so no one (except people on this board) are suggesting that the cricket bat could have come before the gunshots. The state is not contesting this.

BBM

Actually, in his testimony yesterday, Dr. Stipp speculated that the cricket bat sounds could have come before the gunshots. So it's not accurate to say that "no one except people on this board" have suggested it. The witness himself suggested it.

To my knowledge, no one on here had brought up this possibility until Dr. Stipp mentioned it yesterday.

When I heard him say that, it gave me pause.

I agree with you - I don't think that's what happened, due to the reasons you stated about the door panel (if it's true that there are bullet holes in the broken off piece of panel). The door panel hasn't been brought into evidence yet, though.
 
Here are some of the main issues at hand that are nagging at me, and why I'm having such a hard time believing OP's account of the events. It's not one thing I'm stuck on, it's several:

1. His explanation of why he was scared. Simply hearing a noise in the bathroom that you share with your lover, who you know is sharing the same room with you that night, is not cause to go in to full blown terror mode. I would have to abandon my logic to believe this. The only way this makes sense is if he was drunk out of his mind or high as a kite to have that level of paranoia. Sure, people get scared at night when they hear noises, I understand that, but full blown terror is something quite different.

2. The details are too intricate and odd: fans on the porch in the middle of the night, a room so pitch black you can't see one single thing, a locked toilet door in the middle of the night, men screaming exactly like women, cricket bats sounding like guns, etc. There are A LOT of details about his story that have to be justified to make sense.

3. OP retrieved his gun from Reeva's side of the bed. If it really was pitch black, he still was right there, right where she was supposed to be. Inches away. The supposed intruders were in the next room. Why in the world would he not get a hold of Reeva and make sure she is ok first. He's yelling to her to call police and she has nothing at all to say about that, and that doesn't strike him as odd? He can't just reach his arm up to shake her or grab her? He is asking us to believe the unbelievable. Just because something is possible does not also make it plausible. Could I win the lottery tomorrow? Sure, it's possible. But not very probable.

4. Why is it so urgent for him to blast through the bathroom door, without first investigating what or who is in the bathroom?. Again, I simply cannot buy that he was yelling out to whomever was in the toilet and they did not respond back to him at all. Of course Reeva would have responded to his voice. I've read some people theorizing that Reeva was hiding in the toilet when she heard OP yell to the intruder to get out. But let's think about that. Within seconds of hearing the noise in the bathroom, OP has a gun in his hand and he's running down the hall on stumps. From what I understand, he is fast on stumps too. If Reeva was just simply getting up to use the bathroom at night and she hears OP shout out, is she going to get her bearings together within a second or two and think OMG, I have to lock myself in here and hide? That is far more of a stretch for me to believe. He goes in there like he's Rambo because he has a suspicion? Is blowing through a bathroom door a reasonable solution when the person in the bathroom doesn't respond back to you? No, this is not a reasonable explanation. We are trying to make reason fit to an illogical situation.

5. Why 4 shots? Please don't try to tell me the 4 shots were an accident too. Nobody fires a gun 4 times unless they intend to either kill or very seriously mame the crap out of somebody. It's not like OP had never seen a gun before in his life. He is aware of what 4 bullets can do. He went at that door with intent to kill. Can we 100% say it was intent to kill Reeva at this point? That would be unfair as there is still a lot of evidence to hear at trial. But the 4 shots tell me that he was hot under the collar about something. I don't believe for a second that he shot 4 off without giving it any thought.

6. Multiple reports of a woman screaming. One or two people may mistake a voice, but 4 people now have very specifically stated that it was a woman screaming. They also heard a different voice, a man's voice. I can't discount 4 people. I will agree that we still need to piece these stories together and nail down a more solid timeline. But the mere fact of a woman screaming out in distress goes against the very fabric of OP's story.

Now, I do understand that people get mistakenly shot in homes. It does happen. But this is not your typical mistaken identity case. Usually somebody is surprised by somebody else when they are expecting to be home alone. Or somebody is sneaking out or in the house late at night downstairs and the father or whomever thinks it's somebody breaking in. I do see where this happens. Usually it requires somebody seeing another person or shadowy figure first before any action takes place.

In OP's situation, he knows that Reeva is upstairs with him. The bathroom is part of their bedroom. Somebody using a bathroom in the middle of the night (even if they were just previously in bed) is nothing unusual. I cannot logically understand ANY situation where simply using a bathroom at night would be terror-inducing. It defies logic. Also, OP never actually SAW anything. He didn't see a person, a person didn't talk, he didn't see a weapon... he had absolutely no clue whatsoever who or what was making a noise in the bathroom. Do you know anybody, and please be honest, anybody who would blindly shoot 4 times at a closed door when they don't have a snowballs clue in hell what they are shooting at?

With all of this said, it pains me to be thinking that OP is guilty. I don't want him to be guilty. Like many others, I once admired him very much. I still hope that something drastic happens at trial and I have an "ah ha" moment that clears it all up for me. It hasn't happened yet. Unfortunately with each witness that takes the stand, I see a much darker picture.



<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Excerpt:
In OP's situation, he knows that Reeva is upstairs with him. The bathroom is part of their bedroom. Somebody using a bathroom in the middle of the night (even if they were just previously in bed) is nothing unusual. I cannot logically understand ANY situation where simply using a bathroom at night would be terror-inducing. It defies logic. Also, OP never actually SAW anything. He didn't see a person, a person didn't talk, he didn't see a weapon... he had absolutely no clue whatsoever who or what was making a noise in the bathroom. Do you know anybody, and please be honest, anybody who would blindly shoot 4 times at a closed door when they don't have a snowballs clue in hell what they are shooting at?

Pure, raw, natural genius... oooozing.... wonderful...

It's like... really? Why in the hell would an invader post up in the can?
I've been there - when you find out - alone- by looking at your girlfriends phone - and you uncover deception and or cheating- it is a sharp pain - and you immediately react with withdrawal, and anger... either leaving immediately(like i did) or , as in OP's case , taking out his gun.
Here we have a person who has accomplished so much.... but when the stadium lights go out... and when he is alone... there is a darkness... associated... with ... his ... unique... being...

I feel that "snap" ignited a rage only solvable with what he knows can protect him and make him feel better, superior...
 
No, with all due respect, it's not the only thing that makes sense.

The cricket bat sounds could have been first.

There was screaming going on throughout that time and as the gunshots started.

Then the gunshots.

The screaming and the gunshots are what woke up the other neighbors.

Then the last gunshot to the head, Reeva dies, and silence.

No, the cricket bat sounds could not have been first because the panel that was knocked out by the cricket bat had bullet holes in it.
 
Maybe I can help to clarify some questions and/or irritations resp. false information ;)


A short part of the timeline

* shortly after 03:00 a.m. – OP called female neighbour [probably wife of Stander, lawyer, friend], said she should come immediately
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/i-saw-reeva-die-1.1471707#.UXLG2qK-2So

* 03.08 a.m. – OP’s close friend Christo Menelaou woke with a start. He’d heard what sounded like three thunderclaps. He lay in bed waiting for the rain to start. Almost an hour later [~ 04.10 a.m.] he went to the bathroom. His window looks out onto OP’s house. “His house used to be in pitch darkness at night, except for one light that was always on,” Christo (34) says. But that night all the lights were on and there were blue and red lights flashing outside the house.
http://drum.co.za/2013/04/26/hes-heartbroken/

* 03.17 a.m. - Reeva died by the fatal head shot (according to Nel + Roux)

* 03.19 a.m. - OP called Stander [according to OP's DT]

* 03.20 a.m. - OP called Netcare [according to OP's DT]

* 03.20 a.m. – Stander and his wife (?) (called by OP shortly after 03.00 a.m.) came to the house

* few minutes later – Dr Stipp arrived

* 03.42 a.m. - paramedics and first police officers arrived
[There was a video with CCTV footage of Silverwood estate that showed the arrival of paramedics and police. Sadly I not noted the link of the video but I noted the time that was shown.]

* 03.55 a.m. - OP called friend Justin Divaris. Female neigbour [probably wife of Stander, called by OP shortly after 03.00 a.m.] talked with Justin Divaris on phone

* 04:00 a.m. - Female neigbour [probably wife of Stander, called by OP shortly after 03.00 a.m.] called coach Peet Van Zyl by OP’s phone [“I picked up the phone and saw it was Oscar's number and thought it was him phoning me.”] and told him he have to rush to come to OP’s house

* ??? a.m. – Peet Van Zyl called Ampie Louw, OP’s athletic coach

* 04.00 a.m. - further police officers arrived

* 04.15 a.m. - Hilton Botha arrived

* ??? a.m. – Peet Van Zyl + Ampie Louw arrived
[at this time OP wasn't no longer in the house but separate by police in the garage]

* 04.30 a.m. - Justin Divaris + girlfriend Samantha Greyvenstein arrived
[at this time OP wasn't no longer in the house but separate by police in the garage]

All mentioned people except Peet Van Zyl + Ampie Louw are at the state's witness list.


Phone calls

[from the bail hearing]

Nel: Did this accused phone police?
Botha: No.
Nel: Phone security?
Botha: No.
Nel: Phone [for an] ambulance?
Botha: No.

Botha: I saw a firearm on the shower mat. Collected 2 cellphones and two more Blackberries. The two iPhones were not used that morning. The Blackberries hadn’t been used in months.


Different reports about the time OP's brother and lawyer (Kenny Oldwage) arrived

"Botha testified that shortly after he arrived at the crime scene, Pistorius' brother Carl and a lawyer arrived at the house with a locksmith. They wanted to open a safe in the kitchen. "They said they were looking for documents and a memory stick with account numbers of offshore accounts.

Botha: We asked to have the safes open. There was a specific safe in the kitchen but no key, so they brought a locksmith to open it.

Nel: Were [Pistorius’s defence] keen to get to the memory stick? Botha: Yes, it seemed as though they were. Were looking until they found it.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/oscar-pistorius-arrives-2nd-day-bail-hearing-article-1.1268575

Earlier, Det Botha said he arrived at the house at 04:15 and found Ms Steenkamp lying dead on the ground floor. She was wearing white shorts and a black vest, he said and was covered in towels.

A lawyer and Mr Pistorius's brother were already at the scene.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21514428

 
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