Trial Discussion Thread #10 - 14.03.19, Day 13

[Rumpole]

I had reservations too Rumpole! I thought if it did sound like a gunshot, at the very least it would be much duller. But from a distance the sounds are almost identical. The bat is a bit duller as I suspected, but they would be easily confused for one another especial if one is waking us from a sleep. It was indeed eye opening. Is it an exact reenactment? No. I don't know how anyone can say it isn't compelling evidence that it's possible that both the bat and the gun sound similar.

Thanks for agreeing... :tyou:

...... that does not happen a lot around here :floorlaugh:

It is NOT a re-enactment at all. The door was not inside a small bathroom and a house... so clearly quite big differences. But as we both see... at least bat on door CAN produce a gunshot-esque noise.
I don't see that is in dispute given that Stipp heard two sets of noises that sounded like gunshots... even if you argue about which was which... ONE of the sets of noises was cricket bat.. that sounded exactly like gunshots (to Stipp with his experienced hearing)

 

[Linda7NJ]

Your reasoning is flawed and self-contradictory.



Let's stick to the facts:

• There was no intruder.
  
• No evidence exists that there was EVER an intruder in OP's house.
  
• OP claims he shot a woman with whom he was sharing a bed. All she did was use the bathroom and possibly open a 2nd story window.
  
• OP has heard the women he was sleeping with use the bathroom before. He knows what that sounds like.
  

OP's story and actions are NOT believable based on the exact reasoning you gave. He has a documented history of hearing women use the bathroom at night and not thinking they were intruders, and not killing them.

• OP knows women get up to use the bathroom in the middle of the night.
  
• OP knows what that sounds like.
  
• OP is not a 6-year old mentally disabled child playing with a gun.
  
• OP is an experienced weapon's owner and user.
  
• In OP's entire life living in the supposedly "dangerous" Pretoria he's never had to fire his weapons in self-defense.
  

It is entirely unreasonable that the night of the murders, the very night when witnesses heard gunshots and a woman screaming in terror, with witnesses hearing a man and woman arguing, that this was the ONE night of OP's entire life he mistakenly thought the sound of a woman using the toilet was an intruder threatening his life.

Brilliant post


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[MeeBee]

Thanks for agreeing... that does not happen a lot here :floorlaugh:

It is NOT a re-enactment at all. The door was not inside a small bathroom and a house... so clearly quite big differences. But as we both see... at least bat on door CAN produce a gunshot-esque noise.
I don't see that is in dispute given that Stipp heard two sets of noises that sounded like gunshots... even if you argue about which was which... ONE of the sets of noises was cricket bat.. that sounded exactly like gunshots (to Stipp with his experienced hearing)

Exactly. Like I said before, Stipp heard two sets of sounds. One had to have been the bat and one the door. Regardless, of the order, the important point is they sounded the same to him. If that is the case, then the other witnesses cannot say with 100% certainty that what they heard were gunshots even if they are sure that's what they heard. That's reasonable doubt.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Exactly. Like I said before, Stipp heard two sets of sounds. One had to have been the bat and one the door. Regardless, of the order, the important point is they sounded the same to him. If that is the case, then the other witnesses cannot say with 100% certainty that what they heard were gunshots even if they are sure that's what they heard. That's reasonable doubt.

No it isn't. IMO.

The question is ....did he believe she was an intruder.


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[MeeBee]

No it isn't. IMO.

The question is ....did he believe she was an intruder.


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Yes, it is.

And that is the question, isn't it. How can anyone say for sure he didn't?

 

[sorrell skye]

BBM

Good question. But I doubt that he thought she was going to speak to anyone. According to the Doctor arriving on the scene, her brain matter was leaking from the gaping head wound. I think OP KNEW she was not going to tell anyone what happened.

Why did he carry her downstairs? I wondered if he maybe wanted to mess up the forensics. Just sayin....

BBM

Could be.

I think he was just attempting to make it seem as if he was trying to help Reeva (whose brains he had blown out all over his toilet upstairs).

He had just received a phone call from security guard Pieter Baba ("everything is fine"). At that point, he was fully aware that the neighbors must have heard him murdering Reeva, else why would Baba have been calling him to find out WTH was going on? After Baba's call, he realized that security (and police) would be descending upon his house posthaste.

I think he knew there was no saving Reeva. I think he knew he had killed her, which was why, IMO, he stopped firing after the 4th gunshot - because her screams subsided and he knew she was dead.

As I stated in a prior post, I believe that if the 4th gunshot had not penetrated Reeva's skull, completely incapacitating her, he would have kept firing until she stopped screaming and/or he ran out of bullets.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Yes, it is.



And that is the question, isn't it. How can anyone say for sure he didn't?

I can.
He was sharing his bed with the woman for common sense sake! The FIRST thing when frightened by a noise is to CHECK the bed for your mate. Anyone would do that before grabbing a gun.

To assume otherwise, is tossing all common sense out the window. IMO

He wants us to believe an intruder was burglarizing his bathroom? Really? No way!


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[Linda7NJ]

:notgood:

Hearsay isn't as simple as you may think. It may sound simple on the surface,, but there are a plethora of rules and exceptions.


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[Deleted member 102539]

Don't we have testimony that OP and Reeva were having a loud argument for an hour before the shooting or bat (take your pick)

Yes, an argument was testified.
And my question in this context: What burglar is actually that stupid to break into a house, where the residents have a loudly hour-long argument/fight??

 

[Trooper]

[video=youtube;ES6yAjJMg1U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES6yAjJMg1U[/video]


Stipp.. I was woken up by gunshots..

It isn't complicated.. anyone can verify as to what Stipp testified.. it isn't a secret..

 

[MeeBee]

I can.
He was sharing his bed with the woman for common sense sake! The FIRST thing when frightened by a noise is to CHECK the bed for your mate. Anyone would do that before grabbing a gun.

To assume otherwise, is tossing all common sense out the window. IMO

He wants us to believe an intruder was burglarizing his bathroom? Really? No way!


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Like I have posted before, OP has a well documented history of irrational fear and paranoia. Sam Taylor said she had been woken a couple times by oscar because he heard a noise and thought it was an intruder. He almost shot his washing machine. It's not really surprising that something like this happened to a man with such a hair trigger and one that spooks so easily. It was a long time coming. I'm not excusing him. But I think that makes it quite possible that he believed there was an intruder.

Why didn't he wake Reeva? Well, I went through this before as well. It was different this time. There was actually a person in the bathroom the scenario he'd been fearing in his mind was happening and he went into full on panic mode. He wasn't thinking rationally at all. In his mind Reeva is still in bed. He perhaps didn't check her for those two reasons. Saying he didn't do what one thought he should or would do in this situation is not proof that his story is untruthful. It's speculation. You still can't say for certain that he didn't believe there was an intruder in the house. Saying so is just plain biased.

 

[Linda7NJ]

BBM



Could be.



I think he was just attempting to make it seem as if he was trying to help Reeva (whose brains he had blown out all over his toilet upstairs).



He had just received a phone call from security guard Pieter Baba ("everything is fine"). At that point, he was fully aware that the neighbors must have heard him murdering Reeva, else why would Baba have been calling him to find out WTH was going on? After Baba's call, he realized that security (and police) would be descending upon his house posthaste.



I think he knew there was no saving Reeva. I think he knew he had killed her, which was why, IMO, he stopped firing after the 4th gunshot - because her screams subsided and he knew she was dead.



As I stated in a prior post, I believe that if the 4th gunshot had not penetrated Reeva's skull, completely incapacitating her, he would have kept firing until she stopped screaming and/or he ran out of bullets.

IMO his first instinct was to cover up what he did, that's why she was moved. Then he realized there was no time and people heard it....switch gears and go with another excuse.
That's his style. IMO


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[Rumpole]

Stipp.. I was woken up by gunshots..

It isn't complicated.. anyone can verify as to what Stipp testified.. it isn't a secret..

Correct... then he heard a separate set of bang noises at 3:17... sounded like gunshots too... obviously cricket bat on door.... so the second set of bangs fooled his experienced ear, and so not surprising they fooled the burger(s)

 

[MeeBee]

Neighbour Describes How Oscar Pistorius Tried To Save Girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp: Day Four - YouTube


Stipp.. I was woken up by gunshots..

It isn't complicated.. anyone can verify as to what Stipp testified.. it isn't a secret..

He heard two sets of bangs. If the first set he heard were gunshots, the second was the bat on the door.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Like I have posted before, OP has a well documented history of irrational fear and paranoia. Sam Taylor said she had been woken a couple times by oscar because he heard a noise and thought it was an intruder. He almost shot his washing machine. It's not really surprising that something like this happened to a man with such a hair trigger and one that spooks so easily. It was a long time coming. I'm not excusing him. But I think that makes it quite possible that he believed there was an intruder.



Why didn't he wake Reeva? Well, I went through this before as well. It was different this time. There was actually a person in the bathroom the scenario he'd been fearing in his mind was happening and he went into full on panic mode. He wasn't thinking rationally at all. In his mind Reeva is still in bed. He perhaps didn't check her for those two reasons. Saying he didn't do what one thought he should or would do in this situation is not proof that his story is untruthful. It's speculation. You still can't say for certain that he didn't believe there was an intruder in the house. Saying so is just plain biased.

I am biased. I admit it. His tale falls apart for me from the start. I don't by what he's selling.


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[MeeBee]

I am biased. I admit it. His tale falls apart for me from the start. I don't by what he's selling.


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At first I was leaning toward guilt too, for sure.

But I realized I was going on emotion and trying to rationalize things that, deep down, knew were causing doubt for me. Like Stipp hearing two sets of bangs or Oscar having a history if being scared of being victimized. If I were a juror, at this point, I could not on good conscious convict him of premeditated murder. There's just too many questions and doubts. His story may seem absurd, but I just can't be certain that it isn't the truth or, at least, a version of it.

 

[Rumpole]

I am biased. I admit it. His tale falls apart for me from the start. I don't by what he's selling.


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I imagine people think I am biased and pro-OP But I'm not.

I don't "buy what he is selling" either, But I can't reject it for sure. I am 50/50.

The burden is on the State to convince, not me or us guys at WS, but the Judge that OP is lying. For sure... beyond reasonable doubt. The State have not done that yet for me. Have they convinced you beyond reasonable doubt? Enough so that you would send him to prison for life?



ETA
I am talking about 50/50 on whether he thought there was an intruder.

As far as the sequence of events I have little doubt that it went down broadly as OP claims. The State's witnesses all confirm his version in broad terms.

That DOES tend to give some support to his testimony in general... including the intruder claim, so I guess the State so far has pushed me a little towards believing that OP thought there was an intruder.

 

[sorrell skye]

If this case has taught us anything, it's that it is NOT REASONABLE to assume a noise at 3 am is an intruder. Not even in South Africa.

If this case has taught us anything, it's that it is not legal (per SA statutes) to use deadly force by discharging a firearm through a closed door at an unseen, unidentified person.

Per Sean Rens (firearms expert): The assailant must be seen, must have access to the potential victim, must be armed with a visibly deadly weapon (knife, gun, etc.), must express the intent to harm or kill the potential victim, and must then approach the victim.

OP discharging 4 rounds through a closed door because of an alleged 'fear' of an intruder meets NONE of the legal requirements according to SA law.

 

[Trooper]

Correct... then he heard a separate set of bang noises at 3:17... sounded like gunshots too... obviously cricket bat on door.... so the second set of bangs fooled his experienced ear, and so not surprising they fooled the burger(s)

aha.. I see the theory is changing .

so it is agreed that Stipp heard gunfire first?? he didn't mistake it for cricket bat sounds??

and why would 2 cricket bat sounds fool Mrs Burger into hearing 4 gunshot sounds??


I presume its agreed there are 2 marks on the door of the bat hitting it, and 2 marks on the bat when it impacted the door. so is that agreed ??


if so.. how did Mrs Burger translate 2 sounds of a cricket bat into 4 sounds of gunfire?? we do know there were 4 shots, we know there were 2 cricket bat sounds. .

how did she do that? that's a mistake not only of the quality of the sound but the number of sounds..


Unlikely. highly unlikely and barely managing to be credible.


lets do the arithmetic here..

 

[Trooper]

unless, of course the current theory is there were only 2 bullets fired. ( mistaken for gunshot) and 4 cricket bat sounds ( the bat failing to make a dent in the door or on the bat ) ..

2 bullets fired.. one a misfire..( we know that) so 1 bullet managed to hit her hip, her head, and her arm. ANd then divide itself into 3 to be retrieved by the Coroner.

that's a neat trick. Even JFK conspiracists would have trouble with that one.